Author Topic: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each  (Read 2211 times)

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Offline Abandoned

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2017, 05:41:26 AM »
@Tom Sawyer I agree 100% with reasons, well said. Nilla too.  And I also like @RedKetchup thoughts on UI professions list, don't forget minimize button.  :)

Offline Necora

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« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2017, 06:29:34 AM »
I do like that short profession list, it is much easier to handle.

As for the number of resources, from my opinion I really quite like having good variation of raw materials such as different berries, fruits, vegs, I think it adds a nice variation to the game and allows you to select things you personally like or based on the region you play. To me, just having a generic 'berry' or 'fruit' does seem pretty bland really. However to counter that, I don't like lots of secondary or tertiary options. So when I want to make bread, I then want it to be general, so an option of 'fruit bread', 'veg bread', 'nut bread' etc. that allows you to use any raw ingredient but doesn't spam up the menu with different types of bread. Same with meals, just 'hot meal' would be fine, rather than different types based on different resources being made for it. Also, when we get to tertiary production of food, I would also like to see a loss and to be able to use it to cut down on food numbers, if you make a hot meal it should be something like 1 steak + 1 potato + 1 bread = 1 hot meal rather than then making 10 hot meals from it or something. It makes sense in a realistic way, but also in a technical way of the game in that the hot meal will give alternative value in multiple food groups (protein, veg, grain).

But, of course, this is my opinion only and I would like to take the time to remind people that there is no right or wrong way to enjoy the game. Neither Nilla and Tom or elemental or I are right in this sense, and that is the beauty of these games.

I am a scientist, and this last year I have been teaching an introductory course to MSc students. One part of this was the philosophy of science. A core component of the philosophy of science is 'dogmas' or when one scientific theory is based on a completely different type of thinking to another theory. The proponents of these theories can discuss, as we are here, yet the discussions devolve to arguments as neither side are able to understand each other because the theories use different language/expression/meanings/thinking methods. While either side can debate to eternity, they can never agree, only disagree, because the fundamental aspects of their theories are so incompatible that it just will never make sense to the other. Is one right or wrong? In this sense, no. In most science cases, one theory will win out over the other due to empirical evidence, but that is not applicable here. We see this in all aspects of life at the moment, science, religion, politics, and I find it fascinating that even a simple computer game can bring out the exact same tendencies! Humans beans are fascinating, but I will never understand them. I'll stick to animals :D

So talking about right or wrong, @Nilla you can't say 'you are wrong' about my previous post because I mentioned happiness, and ignore the other aspects. I said happiness is impacted by these things, as are other aspects, I didn't say happiness was the important link, it is one of a synergy of game mechanics that is central to successful game play that ultimately increases production, which was the main point of the post, perhaps this did not come across as I intended. Yes happiness in the game is over rated, but it was one factor out of a range that I said. Comment on the others too if you are going to call someone wrong, don't nit pick. I agree with your assessment on happiness, it is a shame it was never incorporated to have more of an effect on the game. It seems to me one of the biggest impacts on the game is time spent doing other things but working which includes visiting church - happiness might not impact productivity directly too much but they do spend a lot of time idling or at church or the cemetery, there fore it does decrease productivity eventually.
There are three types of happiness that buildings produce, that I can see. Spirit, Security, and Goods. This means that in the daily life of a bannie, they are coded to seek out a shot of these, and will go out of their way to visit the church, or cemetery, or well. Overall happiness values mean they spend less time at these locations, but they still have to go to them. This is my point, in a time management of the game, advanced buildings increase productivity by minimizing the time spent going to stock piles and storage places for food and fuel, etc, so they can spend more time working and the time visiting the church or cemetery doesn't impact on productivity as much as if they were also constantly going back and forth between stores/stock piles. It seems that a lot of the core game mechanics like this do not have an over arching impact, but effect how efficiently other mechanics work.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 06:44:25 AM by Necora »

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2017, 07:10:50 AM »
Quote from: Necora
... I said happiness is impacted by these things ...

That's the point or what Nilla meant. Resources and buildings (except of cemetery) don't have any impact on happiness. As far as we know from tests it is not implemented. All kinds of alcohols or luxuries are useless for the people. You can feed them with it for fun but you cannot make a point for advanced town development or something like that.

A working and modifiable happiness system would be a really great addition to Banished. Maybe the most useful thing ever.

Offline brads3

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2017, 09:38:01 AM »
NILLA,i care  to hear what you say. i keep hoping you throw me a crumb of info i can use.even though we agree to disagree most times.it is funny how we play different but do agree on so much.
 last time i started a conversation about the Ui,it go so severly hicjacked i left the table,room,and swam back across the ocean away from it.i agree with the way RED describes somewhat. a professions list labor,builder,then a food worker group,then a forest and resource group,then a processing group.it doesn't have to be the whole list. as RED suggested a small window with just basics would help if ordered correctly.mine  starts out alphabetical then it gets confused.it adds mod add-ons in the middle of it and ends with vendors. i use the list to set builders, keep track of when students graduate to laborers,and wish i could see the food to keep it balanced.
     i used to play and want more options. as i have played the game longer,i have changed my play style has changed and so also my thinking on adding stuff.TOM makes very good points that i had not thought of too.the amount of computer memory being used i had not considered before.
  i  wish the game would allow us to bake or cook or mix ingredients more generically. in large towns it can be a problem to set a bakery or building to work and not realize it ran our of ingredient "A" and stopped working. then you must tell it to use ingredient "B". when A and B are almost the same thing.some buildings we want and need to adjust like the BS and tools. some however,do not make sence. if you make meals it should be meat+veggy+fruit=meal. the game will not let you do that. it has to be done by each ingredient. or we have to remod everything backwards to allow for it. i do not recommend that to any modder. that is too much work.

    i think the agreement of the debate is if mods are made to bring so many different items to make those as individual mods or add-ons. make mod sets more generic with less baking or other goods. that would please both sides of the issue.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2017, 10:03:11 AM »
But, of course, this is my opinion only and I would like to take the time to remind people that there is no right or wrong way to enjoy the game. Neither Nilla and Tom or elemental or I are right in this sense, and that is the beauty of these games.

Agree on that!!!! :)

So talking about right or wrong, @Nilla you can't say 'you are wrong' about my previous post because I mentioned happiness, and ignore the other aspects. I said happiness is impacted by these things, as are other aspects, I didn't say happiness was the important link, it is one of a synergy of game mechanics that is central to successful game play that ultimately increases production, which was the main point of the post, perhaps this did not come across as I intended. Yes happiness in the game is over rated, but it was one factor out of a range that I said. Comment on the others too if you are going to call someone wrong, don't nit pick. I agree with your assessment on happiness, it is a shame it was never incorporated to have more of an effect on the game. It seems to me one of the biggest impacts on the game is time spent doing other things but working which includes visiting church - happiness might not impact productivity directly too much but they do spend a lot of time idling or at church or the cemetery, there fore it does decrease productivity eventually.
There are three types of happiness that buildings produce, that I can see. Spirit, Security, and Goods. This means that in the daily life of a bannie, they are coded to seek out a shot of these, and will go out of their way to visit the church, or cemetery, or well. Overall happiness values mean they spend less time at these locations, but they still have to go to them. This is my point, in a time management of the game, advanced buildings increase productivity by minimizing the time spent going to stock piles and storage places for food and fuel, etc, so they can spend more time working and the time visiting the church or cemetery doesn't impact on productivity as much as if they were also constantly going back and forth between stores/stock piles. It seems that a lot of the core game mechanics like this do not have an over arching impact, but effect how efficiently other mechanics work.

I'm sorry, you misunderstood me again, I only meant, you are wrong, when you say that all these things, has an impact on the happiness, not that all your argumentation was wrong. (Thank you @Tom Sawyer for your explanation.)  I may express myself clumsy, many times (English is my third language) and my skills are more in the fields of math and technology, not language. So I take the opportunity to apologize to all, if I say something clumsy. I never mean to hurt or diminish anyone. 

And @brads3, what crumbs do you need from me? If you are more specific I will deliver!

Offline Necora

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2017, 10:29:14 AM »
@Tom Sawyer and @Nilla hmm I think my point was lost in there too somewhere, I tend to not be able to explain myself very well in text. @Nilla I think you're English is probably as better than mine on message boards, I always struggle making my point in posts! Sorry if I sound like a broken record on this, I am not really disagreeing with you at all just trying to clarify my point about advanced buildings and things like home wares having a wider value than just trade or instant impacts as I think my initial point was completely lost in a discussion happiness that I never intended, because I agree with you.

We seem to have gotten side tracked on happiness in terms of how happy the bannies are feeling but that really wasn't the point of my posts. I never said happiness itself directly impacts productivity or has any major impact on game play. My point about bringing up the happiness codes in the buildings (and yes, some goods buildings to have them, introduced by the apiary example) is not that they make the bannies feel happy, but more the physical impact of making a banny seek out that location as part of their day to day life, regardless of how much of a positive impact it has on their well being. Does that make sense?

That means that in the day of a banny, they will go and visit a church or cemetery or apiary (if it has the code) regardless of how much of an impact the actual happiness gives to them. This, in terms of time spend doing stuff, reduces the amount of time they work. So, by reducing the amount of times a banny needs to stock up their house because it is an advanced building with loads of storage and heat capacity, the time they spend idling at church or what ever has less of an impact on over all productivity. Does this make sense? I'm not discussing how happy particular buildings make bannies, that is beside the point and as you said has very little impact on game play, but more the fact that regardless, they will go find these places, and if they can't find them, they idle. This is coded as part of their daily routine. As soon as you build a hospital, they congregate (especially if it is the first happiness producing building) regardless of how that actually impacts their happiness value, it takes time away from other things. Same with a cemetery, church, and other buildings that have a happiness code. This was the point of my discussion on advanced houses and why home wares etc. have a more wider value than trade value, as they minimize the impact such 'happiness' producing buildings have in terms of pure time spent doing other tasks.

It is the whole reason why the vanilla game had stone houses, they make everything more efficient than wooden houses as the bannies spend less time filling the houses with food and fuel. The advanced building supplies and home wares have extra value to the game by allowing you to build even better houses, making things even more efficient. If this had no impact on the game, what is the point in stone houses at all?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 10:32:35 AM by Necora »

Offline brads3

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2017, 10:37:29 AM »
the more i try to explain myself it comes out like a babbling brook and my posts get longer and even i fall asleep sometimes. lol NILLA,if i knew what it was you wouldn't have to throw me the crumbs. as for me i speak hillien,it is an hillbilly-alien language i developed on my own planet.  that is why everyone kicked me off and sent me to bug earthlings.

Offline Necora

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2017, 11:04:42 AM »
@brads3  :D

I just wanted to add, I didn't start this discussion for an argument or anything, I just wanted @Nilla 's opinion on the wider value of certain goods beyond trade value. You have a different way of looking at the game than I, and as a player I respect that and as someone who makes a few mods I would like to learn more about it so that as I develop my stuff in the future I can incorporate the best of both of our views on the game to make awesome stuff. That is the goal, and I do apologize if it comes across as an argument or something, that is not what I intend at all and I respect all of your opinions, and if it leads to a discussion on opposite views than that is for the best, but I hope you don't think I'm just here for a dig or anything like that.

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2017, 12:14:50 PM »
@Necora The point of stone houses in vanilla game is to need less fuel and to be less vulnerable to fire. The consumption of fuel is the main property to create advanced houses and actually we don't have something else. The use of space per inhabitant can be another but that's tricky because it means that a cheap early game building has to require more area than an expensive house.

Your text about happiness I did not understand fully. The happiness code creates a location for idling around the building. People are walking there if they are not working. If there is no idling location in town then they walk in the forest. That's all. What I remember and @Nilla knows it better is that unhappy people idle more often and are less productive because of that. But you cannot do something by building a church or feeding them with luxury items. I also think it doesn't reduce the idling time but it can be tested. So happiness system not working. The concept was nice. To create different kinds of requirements for happiness (goods, health, spirit, safety and entertainment) and to let them idle instead of working if unhappy. Really cool but not finished. The first step to make it work would be to decrease their basic happiness level to make all the buildings and resources necessary for increasing it. I tried it by changing some values in the citizen.rsc but it has no influence in game. So I gave up to work with happiness and changed the function of churches to attract nomads and balanced alcohol to be trade goods. It's a shame.

Offline embx61

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2017, 12:20:28 PM »
So many request's, so less time. :)

Nothing wrong with not agreeing with each other as long as the debate stays civil. :)

Lots of things are "invented" by some modders what was deemed impossible.
But reality is that not everything, despite the very good additions some modders have made by trial and error, is possible without Luke making changes to the source code.

My hope is that Luke will change at least the building requirements stuff so more building materials can be added to build buildings and who knows throws in another surprise as well.

Luke is the only one who knows what can be done with the code and what cannot be done.
I know he is a busy man and work alone but to chime in so once in a while to just say: Guys, forget it. "That what you are trying to do is not going to work" will save us modders some time".
On the other hand I understand that Luke refrains from that because "we" will ask him to make it possible.
It all comes down to one question. Is Banished close to completely finished project for Luke or is he willing to do more updates in the future?
We can only guess and I not even sure if he knows it himself.

It is not wrong to ask the modders for as much as possible but on the other hand it creates situations that lots of stuff will end up as trade only. For me personally not that much as a big deal but I can understand that some players not like it that much because of UI issues.

Making houses is pretty easy and won't affect gameplay that much. Make the houses have some more storage, use less fuel and even allow a bannie or two more and that's it.
Same for churches, chapels and the like.

Production chains is a different story. Some are easy too but it will end up with lots of stuff trade only as no real purpose can be modded in and the more materials the more the markets, storage places, and UI are subject to some problems.
I don't have that many mods and I have end products what are not more then just trade only.
Pouches, Saddles, Linseed Oil, Glass, to name a few.

Linseed Oil and glass I have a idea for but can only realize this when Luke indeed increase the building requirements so I can make paint or varnish out of Linseed Oil and Glass can be used as well.
Even a woodcarver can use linseed Oil so I can make a woodcarver building, but what does a wooden statue really do in gameplay besides trade?
Okay, some van argue that a statue can create some happiness, but I think we all agree that the happiness system (With all respect to Luke) is as easy as it is.

Same with RedKetchup's pottery. Really sad as pottery was a huge thing in the medieval times and that is IMHO the reason Red added it to Banished and I made the leatherworker chain for that same reason knowing the end products would be trade only. Only thing I can think of is to use pottery items in chains what produces fluids so to put the fluids in the pottery items as I did with glassware in the apothecary.

Even when players came with lots of ideas for the apothecary I only ended up with 3 end items as to not flood the markets with stuff what does the same for the bannies anyway.
Apothecary was a medieval thing too. THAT is why my beloved wife always wanted me to add one even realizing that it would not do more then the Vanilla herbalist does with just plain herbs. Lots of players play Banished in a sort of City building way and the more different buildings the better.

Others are number crushers and take a good look at production numbers, speed and values.

At the end though with so many mods I can honestly say that there is at least something out there for everyone what will make them happy :)


« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 12:23:41 PM by embx61 »
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Offline Necora

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2017, 12:32:13 PM »
@Tom Sawyer right, and that links to the point I was originally making.

Less required fuel + more storage = less time spent picking up fuel and food and moving it to the house = more time spent working and producing other things. This is the chain I was meaning when I said that advanced houses and more specifically the advanced products needed to build them have more value to the game than just what you can trade them for, hence why I think that if they have no or even slightly less value than the resources used to produce them it isn't necessarily a bad thing because they will, over time, increase productivity of the town by freeing up the time of a worker from doing these menial tasks they have to do.

I agree that the happiness concept is good but poorly implemented, but the only reason for mentioning it was because the idle code in these buildings means that it is one extra menial task the bannies are coded to do, but one we have little control over, so if we minimize the time spent stocking the house, we are also minimizing the impact that idling has on a work cycle, hence increasing productivity of the town.

It is far fetched, and I don't know how big an impact it is, but I do think it is noticeable and so does add an extra 'intangible' value to the resources produced in the game such as home wares.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2017, 12:34:03 PM »
Well. @Necora I still don't understand how these advanced houses can minimize the impact of these idling locations. (I think, that's a better name, than happines building, since they generally don't bring any happiness). But never mind. I do see, that less fuel and larger storage have a positive influence. And if you go back and read, what I said the first time about the homeware, I'm not totally hostile, I just don't think it ought to be standard for all advanced buildings from different modders. I can reveal; I have already bought one homeware in my present game! :) Maybe I'll even produce some, we'll see.

And principally, just for the record; I do like to discuss things. I like different opinions. I come from a family, where we always discussed with dedication, everything from world politics to the new shoes from the neighbor, where the opinion from the children were as important as from the parents. My first boyfriend was very shocked. He came from an upper class family, where the words of the father was the only thing that mattered. The same in our family, we always discuss things. People who don't know me and my husband might think, that we are short from a divorce, but we've got along very well with eachother this way for the last 35 years!

At least you can tell me @brads3 for what do you need these crumbs? If you need them to avoid the food crises you have in you last game, I'm not sure I can help you much. You have put yourself in very difficult situation. I'm pretty sure, if I played your game, I would have hard times too: many uneducated, many unproductive children and students compared to adults, difficult map with little land to build for the start efficient forest units. The only advice I can give in such a game, just to focus of the important things: food, food, food, fuel, food, tools, food, food,..... I know you want some kind of storyline but everything extra, that doesn't contribute to the initial basic needs, will have to wait until the situation gets under control. I'm sure it will, when students graduate, when the number of children and student gets down and the number of adults grows. I've just started the game and will post a few screenshots. I'll rather doubt, that you will find any crumbs.



First picture

I haven't played much but this is the main part of my settlement. I've cut in the inventory.

Second picture.

I've started to expand to the other side of the river. You can see at the population graph, that I've just taken some new nomads. They live here. Extra for you @brads3 to look at, I've cut in the full profession list. I don't run all buildings all the time, so if it looks very much different from yours, just ask, why I have the one or other profession. I just see, that I have a few unemployed builders. That's not normal. I also have menu free laborers. That's simply because I started my latest save, to make these screenshots, but it snowed, and snowed. I just speed ran the game and all building projects were finished, students became adults without getting a profession. I will now go back to my last save and play a little. I'll tell you tomorrow, how it goes on.


Finally I want to qoute @embx61 from the wise words, he just wrote:
Quote
At the end though with so many mods I can honestly say that there is at least something out there for everyone what make them happy :)

I will thank you all modders for that.

sorry, forgot the pictures!

Offline brads3

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2017, 03:04:21 PM »
 when i said "crumb" i ment tidbit of information not food ,you goof. lol. you do toss me something to chew on sometimes. as for the fort,it was on a death spiral. i did try to save it. the more i tried the worse it seemed to get. that last group of nomads,when i was trying to build food up, kicked me hard. i did do a similar map a long time back but i have lost the map code.it did much better than this 1. it was time to move on though with the barracks so full.
      NECORA,don't take us as arguing even if i use that word.  i have debated with myself sometimes too. i even loose them on occasion. like earlier i had to stop the game and figure where and what to build next. what made sence 1 way, the game and map said didn't make sence another. it's o'k. i don't want to be the same as anyone else. my name isn't jones or rockefeller. my wallet says so even.
      it is a debate as long as we don't throw stones. i try not to.NILLA has told me before to watch what i say cause it gets messed up in translations.i think debates is good for the game. we can all learn from each other by comparing different styles. i may not load all mods from every modder. that isn't because i disagree or don't like what they have done. it is because my style or tastes are different.
   i want to go back and argue with Eb though. i don't think LUKE knows  how much can be done either. i think the game,because of smart modders,has gone way past what he designed and thought could be already. i wonder if he remembers what this game was suppose to be or do when he developed it originally. i would like to hear his thoughts and impression.

   NILLA,what am i looking for with your professions list? yours is not as confusing as mine since you have less mods.i have switched mine to a scrollable window so it doesn't take up so much room.

Offline elemental

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2017, 05:16:50 PM »


Reasons to not add unnecessary items are e.g.
- it costs time to make it by modders
- it costs space and makes the pkm bigger
- it increases loading time of the game
- it's a source of bugs and conflicts
- it displaces necessary items in game
- it needs actions in game to keep it away from the game
- it creates confusing production menus

The thing is just about everything you mention here applies to every mod. Which leads to the question: why make any mods at all? The answer to that question should be obvious.  :)

Offline brads3

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2017, 06:48:26 PM »
NILLA,i am not trying to hijack your thread. EB said he made the saddles and oil for trade. i thought he made the saddles to go with KID's wild west mod and the oil for lanterns in mines. is that why the buildings are bigger and fit different? they do look so n ice with the wild west set though. your herbalist building bugs me. it doesn't grow herbs ir gathers and it looks too nice for the plymouth town i keep trying to put it in.lol. the color matches up good but it functions wrong for a town and it is bigger and fancier. not ment to be a complaint if it sounded it. the mod keeps calling me to put it there.
    as to pottery,it could be used in preserving food, especially if NILLA wants it to rot and spoil. at CC they use glass and barrels to store and can food.