World of Banished

Sightseeing => Village Blogs => Topic started by: Nilla on June 12, 2018, 01:37:02 AM

Title: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 12, 2018, 01:37:02 AM
I started a new game yesterday evening. It took some time to catch up what has happened on this webpage the days I was gone, so I didn't get very far, just played a few years.

My goals for this game are;

-to understand the modded happiness system better
-to see if a settlement in the North can live mainly from @Discrepancy´s industrial production
-to learn to write shorter blogs  ;)

First picture
Start. I've cut in map settings and mods. I want an easy start and will try to enter the industrial area as soon as possible.

Second picture
Not many years but the Nordic Bannis have been busy, some are even happy but not all of them. I guess the rest of them will need some alcohol for that.  :-\ :P As soon as we can buy some glass, I'll be happy to fulfill their wishes. :)
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Discrepancy on June 12, 2018, 04:12:49 AM
:) thanks for testing. And I'm sorry for not responding to your last blog posts.
I plan to update the industry mod to fit more into theme with the North's production values, but this won't be undertaken quickly.
I have put on hold my current project and will concentrate on getting an update to this mod and also the Timber Mill done soon (lumber/timber will now go back to custom5 construction/building materials).

But, I hope in this blog you can give me some ideas on better production numbers :)


a slow timber mill/lumber mill
Timber mill production of firewood with the north/cc/vanilla is always hard to find a balance if using a production time the same as the 'base' wood chopper (in the north this is the small 2x2 chopper. The mill production of Timber becomes incredibly quick and unrealistic...
But in the next release I will have the mill on par with the chopper so it will be comparable speed to produce firewood with 1 worker, and offer an advantage with multiple workers. This will of course have the consequence of meaning huge amounts of timber is produced, it will require more micro-managing of timber production from the player.

Banished modkit code doesn't appear to allow for the resource quantity to be altered per resource in building, so we are left with a game that very much centers all around the production rate of firewood from logs (I believe this anyway), this has a consequence that every resource we add through a mod needs to have a relevance to the production speed, quantity and requirement for firewood. with an output of 2-3 logs from a tree (6 in the north), and 3-4 firewood, from 1 log, it sets a precedent of how much all other production chains can behave.

So this leads to a side note, after my self-enforced break (I spent 2-3 weeks not modding and have instead been playing some cities skylines), my current project is combining all of my mods into 1.
Not just for a single download, but to be able to make them work more in unison instead of separate... this led me into the firewood production and has made me go down the route of also adjusting vanilla numbers to come up with a better or perhaps just different production of not just firewood/logs/timber but also most other resources, and this has really been as a consequence of changing the log-firewood production to better integrate lumber/timber into the game as a construction requirement.
So this leads me to a dilemma in which I am alienating my single mod to an extent to be incompatible with others. Though this is only in production values & storage flags, but should still be playable as should not cause a crash. So yes, my mods will go down a different road of limits, and it did cause me a headache @brads3 ;)
I think it is needed, I feel I need to go down this road and try something different. The different use of storage/limit flags allows for the future direction of the mod, but I have kept the use of the main construction limits clean (logs,stone,iron), I've also kept it the same as North & vanilla/CC for the different storage requirements for each limit group (either in barns or stockpiles), I have made stockpile resource models for all rawmaterials that may cross that boundary in other mods (either stored in barn one mod or stockpile the other).
But, only the single combined DS mod will have different production values. For now the various separate mods will remain using the same or similar as is production now.


 ??? I apologise for such a confusing post.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: brads3 on June 12, 2018, 05:26:13 AM
i don't mean to do that DS. i am impressed with LUKE and the modders. so far nothiing is really failing due to flags.even stuff from 1.06 imit flags seems to work with 1.07 buildings for the most part.i did remove an old mod due to issues with salt being different and not storing in a bakery.i think some of the riddles of storig the different flag limits is confusion by players mosre than problems.with more options it has gotten smoother.we had to relearn things too.

         the firewood lumver production has always been probematic.NECORA gave up and made 2 cutters to solve it.finding a good balance on any production can be a hassel.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 12, 2018, 07:23:10 AM
Timber/Lumber - Firewood.

Why on earth do all your lumber mills have to produce firewood, guys? In my world a sawmill produces boards, planks and beams of different size and quality, never firewood. Of course there will be some waste wood, that you can buy cheap, but you have to cut it to firewood yourself. No sawmill will deliver it cut and split, ready to use.

Let your sawmill produce lumber/timber only and your problem with high/low production compared to firewood would be solved. (You will still have to fight with comparing the profit but that's another matter) Let it be possible to cut firewood from timber, you can call this wastewood timber as well. Think about it like a tree, that's made to logs. Some logs are used for construction, some for firewood; better quality logs/timber is building material, less quality is used to make firewood.

Let it be more profitable to use timber for firewood, if you look at the amount of firewood you can get out of one tree and let it be more profitable to use the log directly without the timber detour, if you look at the amount of firewood one worker can produce. This will add value to the game. There will be no always valid "best way", you have to decide for each game and maybe also during one game. I can't have enough of such decisions.

The high profit of a vanilla woodcutter is a problem. You are right in setting new values. Other modders have made it as well (Tom, Red). But I realize, that's it not easy just to reduce the production/profit without thinking about the consequences: What is if a woodcutter only produces a few 100 wood each year? In a harsh climate a simple house may need 50 firewood (or more) each year. Is it reasonable to use 1 chopper for 5 houses? Or are there alternative houses with better heat economy or alternative ways to get firewood? If you take the profit of firewood away, it will be much harder to buy seeds and animals at the beginning. Are there alternative trading goods for the start? And so on............

I realize these things take time. I can only say; take your time! And don't worry too much about compability. If one more modder makes his own "thing", maybe more people can discover how much fun it makes. to play different games, with different smaller sets of a few mods and not everything at the same time: let them discover this true "diversity".
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: RedKetchup on June 12, 2018, 02:46:47 PM
first we cannot ask a producer drop 2 things in same time, only 1 , it can be random picking one or the other ... but never both in same time.
if we try to do it like a pasture and ask to drop 2x beef, 1x leather when we slaughter a cattle... it doesnt work when we put the code inside a consume-produce building. it only drop the first item on the list, the 2nd is ignored.

another thing, woodcutter in vanilla is so fast, it create a firewood bundle every "work unit", although i slowered a bit that in RK Ed , 1 bundle every "3 work units"
but even that, my lumbermill create 1 thing every "8 work units". i really cannot see the lumbermill create lumber every 1 or every 3 work units, that will be extremly fast and you will go through 200 logs in few seconds at 10X. So if i ask my lumbermill to create firewood too, it will create 1 firewood bundle every 8 work units which is up to 8X times slower than vanilla woodcutter. or 2.6X slower with RKED woodcutter.
again, it is another misjugment from developper to put the amount created in the raw material file and should has been placed inside the building itself.

i dont see a way to get around this maybe ask woodcutter to make a bundle of firewood from 1 lumber.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 12, 2018, 03:48:52 PM
I know, Red, that I can't have both logs and firewood or lumber and firewood at the same time, even if I would want to. We've discussed that before and again we have to accept the limits of the game. That's not what I suggest here. Maybe I didn't express myself well enough. Sorry for that.

I just don't see the sense in having the option to choose, if you want to produce lumber of firewood in a lumber mill. Most lumber mills have this option. I don't remember, if yours have it @RedKetchup, I only used it for lumber. This possibility to choose, just makes things complicated, without making any sense. As I've said, I have never heard of a saw mill that produces firewood ready to use. But if you've made lumber in the lumber mill, I wouldn't mind, if it could also be used to make firewood but as a second option by the woodcutter. That's a choice, that make sense in my world: you can cut firewood from the "low quality logs" not suitable for construction or processing or you can cut firewood from lumber of low quality (endpieces and things like that).
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: galensgranny on June 12, 2018, 04:44:40 PM
I like having mills that can make lumber or firewood.  I didn't have much need for lumber earlier on before more mods needing it were made, so it was great to have just one building and set of workers who could make some lumber, and then get back to producing firewood.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: RedKetchup on June 12, 2018, 04:54:31 PM
I like having mills that can make lumber or firewood.

even if you know the lumbermill will produce firewood from 2.6X to 8X alot much slower ? (up to 800 firewood from cutter while lumbermill doing only 100 firewood?)
it wouldnt be more profitable to just add +1 worker to the cutter yard ?
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: galensgranny on June 12, 2018, 05:06:44 PM
I like having mills that can make lumber or firewood.

even if you know the lumbermill will produce firewood from 2.6X to 8X alot much slower ? (up to 800 firewood from cutter while lumbermill doing only 100 firewood?)
it wouldnt be more profitable to just add +1 worker to the cutter yard ?
I never thought about profitability.  Do all the modded lumbermills that make both firewood and lumber produce firewood much slower, such as the one from CC?  I just added a wood chopper when more firewood sooner than later was needed.  If it is true that all those combo lumber and firewood mills produce firewood a great deal slower, then I might not be so thrilled with them.  But, I do like how they look.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: rkelly17 on June 12, 2018, 06:17:58 PM
I don't know, maybe I'm just odd or lucky (Don't say what you're thinking  :P ), but I've always been able to produce as much lumber as I need with 1 saw pit. One worker in his/her little hole in the ground seems to make a lot of lumber. And then I spread wood choppers all over the map so firewood is plentiful. Haven't built a mill yet. They do look nice though.

There was a guy near where we used to vacation who had a portable lumber mill  he parked beside his barn. He made lumber for all the locals and cottagers. If you had a tree fall or had to cut one down, he would turn it into lumber. Maybe that's the CC saw pit idea.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: galensgranny on June 12, 2018, 09:48:49 PM
Kid's wind sawmill makes both lumber and wood, and says it is as fast as the vanilla woodcutter for firewood.  Plus is unique looking and good looking, based on the real thing he saw in a picture.  To me, looks matter a lot when I play.

http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=2185.msg43564#msg43564
I also like the CC mill that makes lumber or firewood.  It is a nice building.

One can opt to dedicate the mills to only one of the functions, if desired.
@rkelly17, that sure was a handy thing that the guy near your vacation spot did with a portable lumber mill.  I am sure the locals loved it!
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Gatherer on June 13, 2018, 12:48:34 AM
Personally I like the idea of lumbermill producing both lumber and firewood. I'm not a player that fills a map so I don't like to build houses and other structures indefinitely. Sooner or later I have no real use for lumber other than for trading. And at that point I also have tons of other goods to sell so I need lumber even less. Switching to firewood means I don't have to look at a closed icon on top of lumbermill.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 13, 2018, 01:27:48 AM
Yes, I've seen such portable lumbermills, too but I haven't seen, that they make firewood. But they do make a lot of waste wood, that you need to cut and split, if you want to use it ! A lot of work!  :P

I will only say one more thing to this matter. I think my opinion is clear by now. We can only agree to disagree! ;) I have some issues with buildings, where the production is set, just to make it easier for the player, without existing in that way in the "real world". These lumbermills who can also make firewood, if you don't need much lumber is one example. A workshop that can make both tools and clothes another. It is very useful at the beginning of a game, sure! But who wants to make clothes in a place, that's dirty after making tools from raw iron in "real"? I don't mind, that you can choose different products in one site. But I like, that you likely would produce these things in such a building in life.

But yes; Kid's lumbermill is absolutely great to produce firewood. I've only used it for that. I figure, that there was an old resourceful woodcutter, who was tired of his work and invented this mill, to make his work easier.  ;) Discrepancy's combined mill also looks fantastic.

I played some years yesterday. Here are some pictures:

First picture.
The settlement grows by immigration. Norseman is a slow real time aging mod and taking every nomad, is the only way to have some kind of "flow" in the game.

Now they have alcohol and most people are happy, true Norsemen. ;D One original couple never gained any stars, even if they live inside all happiness circles. They had to wait longest for their house at the beginning and never seem to forget this; still envy of their neighbors after all these years. ::) I'm pretty sure it is important for the happiness, that they are not homeless for a longer time. Maybe @Tom Sawyer; a hostel possible to build early, would make sense. As I said, you need to take nomads and it's a little bit tricky to have houses ready for them soon enough.

The happiness has dropped a bit lately. That's because I've started to expand out in the forest and they don't have enough "happiness buildings" out there yet.

Second picture
Modern times have arrived (red school). The village has a picture from a museum of a medieval village as model. (Third picture) Unfortunately you can't place them quite as criss-cross as in real, but I've tried my best. ;)
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: RedKetchup on June 13, 2018, 02:13:02 AM

But yes; Kid's lumbermill is absolutely great to produce firewood.

then it certainly doing lumber super fast...
too fast for my mod :P

but i maybe have a solution...
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: RedKetchup on June 13, 2018, 02:24:51 AM
but i maybe have a solution...

my lumbermill takes 2 log and create 4-5 lumber in 8 work units.
i can ask him to take 1 log and create 2-3 lumber in 5 work units (by lowering the lumber produce to 2-3 in the material file)

then i can ask the woodcutter to take 2 logs at the time to make firewood instead of 1 log, and i double the amount created in the firewood file.
so the wood cutter would use 2 logs and create 5-8 firewood in 5 works units (instead of 1log = 3-4)

and then ask the lumbermill to do it too.. by using 2 logs and make 5-8 firewood in 5 work units too.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: kid1293 on June 13, 2018, 02:39:22 AM
I am listening.

You test first  :D  then I can change my windmill to your numbers.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: RedKetchup on June 13, 2018, 02:54:03 AM
i did the changes in RK Ed :)
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: galensgranny on June 13, 2018, 02:56:14 AM
Nilla, in the US there are many mills that make and sell both lumber and firewood.  For example: http://wagnersawmill.com/ (http://wagnersawmill.com/), http://www.cliffordlumber.com/ (http://www.cliffordlumber.com/),  and http://americanwoodyards.com/ (http://americanwoodyards.com/).  They deliver it too, though in a limited area.  It makes total business sense for the mills to use their "not good for building lumber" pieces as firewood for sale, cut into nice sized pieces and kiln dried.


I do agree, though, it seems odd in a way for a workshop to make tools and also clothes.  But, after the smithing is done, they do a great cleanup, so when they make the clothes the cloth stays clean.  :)
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: kid1293 on June 13, 2018, 02:59:25 AM
@RedKetchup

So now we can cheat by having your mod loaded and build a simple woodcutter
who produces 5-8 firewood from 1 log ?
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: RedKetchup on June 13, 2018, 03:00:45 AM
@RedKetchup

So now we can cheat by having your mod loaded and build a simple woodcutter
who produces 5-8 firewood from 1 log ?

no cause the simple vanilla woodcutter in my mod will take 2 logs for the 5-8 firewood

but if they take another woodcutter from another mod, not updated, yes they can cheat.
but between you and me, when they want to cheat... they always find a way to cheat ^^ like more logs and more stones..... mods.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: kid1293 on June 13, 2018, 03:06:21 AM
but if they take another woodcutter from another mod, not updated, yes they can cheat.
but between you and me, when they want to cheat... they always find a way to cheat ^^ like more logs and more stones..... mods.

I agree. Let's try the numbers. They sound reasonable.
Are you changing vanilla woodcutter too?

Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: RedKetchup on June 13, 2018, 03:12:30 AM
i have 1 wood cutter, thats the vanilla one which has been re-designed and re-modeled. i changed ALL the vanilla buildings in RK Ed mod :)
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: RedKetchup on June 13, 2018, 03:17:52 AM
oh i suggest you to add the cutter yard template and call the consume-produce paragraph in your mod :) (and dont forget to put more time like 5 works units.)

      "Template/CutterYard.rsc:consumeproduce",



Code: [Select]
ConsumeProduceDescription consumeproduce
{
Product _products
[
{
ConsumeRawMaterial _consumeMaterials
[
{
ComponentDescription _material = "Template/RawMaterialWood.rsc";
int _count = 2;
}
]

ComponentDescription _produceMaterial = "Template/RawMaterialFirewood.rsc";
ResourceLimit _resourceLimit = Fuel;
}
float _workTime = 5.0;
ToolType _toolType = Axe;
int _workRequired = 5;
int _initialProduct = 0;
}
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Discrepancy on June 13, 2018, 03:57:56 AM
I like the formula @RedKetchup :)
I will do this also for my separate mods.


but my combined mod has gone down a different road of also altering the log drop, tree ages, playing around with warmth requirements in housing to make it more noticeable etc, etc...
@Nilla , i am going to have to find an alternative for a trade good as firewood and logs will not be an option unless we want deforestation of the map.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: kid1293 on June 13, 2018, 04:54:36 AM
Just one thing more - NOT 5-8 . That's punishment!
I can go with 6-8 (double vanilla, was 3-4)

I will use 6-8 for my choppers.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: RedKetchup on June 13, 2018, 04:56:34 AM
Just one thing more - NOT 5-8 . That's punishment!
I can go with 6-8 (double vanilla, was 3-4)


hahaha right  ;D
you can go with your settings :) i prefer this in RK Ed :)
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: brads3 on June 13, 2018, 05:22:44 AM
am i reading this right that if we use an upgraded sawmill mod, it will affect our older mills and woodcutters? so the older woodcutters will be too productive?
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: kid1293 on June 13, 2018, 05:29:34 AM
Yepp  ;)
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: brads3 on June 13, 2018, 05:42:35 AM
even if the upgrade is loaded below the other mod?
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: kid1293 on June 13, 2018, 06:21:02 AM
Probably so. The real change is in firewood material file. That file is usually not in any mod.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 13, 2018, 08:26:16 AM
OK, OK, if this is what you all want, I'll have to accept it.  :-\

Maybe it's not so hard to see the point after all; when the workers at the sawmill have nothing more to saw, they simply go out in the yard with some axes and chop the "waste wood" into firewood. Like so many other steps in the Banished work, we simply don't see it. Why not?

@RedKetchup, I only hope that the reduction of the productivity, that you've set in RK Ed stays and that it will not be too easy to "cheat" a very high production with these numbers. But as someone says; those who want to cheat will always find a way, so no need to bother all too much about it.



Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: LadyMarmalade on June 13, 2018, 08:59:50 AM
I'm getting confused here.

Firewood has always been the bane of my Banished game. I almost always run out frequently. That's why this thread caught my attention but I find all the flags and values stuff totally bewildering and confusing.

Do I understand correctly that the latest idea is to reduce how much firewood the various woodcutters and Lumber yards produce? I can't imagine why anyone would think thats a good idea!?

Am I also right in understanding that if I download the new updated version of Kids Lumber Mill and add it to my game it will somehow make my existing woodcutters produce more firewood?

Call me a cheat - doesnt matter to me an iota - I believe there's no 'right' way to play the game except the way thats pleases you personally the best!
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Tom Sawyer on June 13, 2018, 09:12:57 AM
I don't have a big problem with firewood as second option of a lumber mill in an industrial setting. It anyway needs a logical relation between processing a log into lumber and into firewood. Doesn't really matter if in one or different buildings. In my understanding, firewood cannot be sawed faster than boards and planks and to keep it simple I would make both with same input of logs. The more important point is to make water or wind powered sawmills faster than chopping or hewing a log with an ax.

Looking at this new firewood change I don't catch the idea because it doesn't solve something. It actually only makes it complicated and creates new problems. Wood choppers with vanilla speed are already overpowered. Now they would shred even the doubled amount of logs in the same time and sawmills are still not faster. Slowing down wood chopping instead of speeding them up is the better attempt in my opinion. It gives way to sawmills for higher productivity.

If you add such cutters and sawmills to the North, they will be useless (taking 2 logs for 4 firewood and wasting 50% material). That's not a big problem since not everyone plays the north, I just say because Brad was asking. At least I suggest to talk about it before hastily updating a lot of mods.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: kid1293 on June 13, 2018, 09:45:35 AM
Do I understand correctly that the latest idea is to reduce how much firewood the various woodcutters and Lumber yards produce? I can't imagine why anyone would think thats a good idea!?

Am I also right in understanding that if I download the new updated version of Kids Lumber Mill and add it to my game it will somehow make my existing woodcutters produce more firewood?

No, the amount will be the same.
 1 log in - 3-4 firewood out
or
 2 logs in - 6-8 firewood out.

It is just a simple way to equalize the numbers compared to lumber.

And yes, yes, if you have my updated windmill, all old choppers will produce double firewood.
My windmill is adjusted to new setting and will produce at same old speed/amount.

@Tom Sawyer - I agree some with you. I don't care for lumber. I don't use it. My logs are
worked at building site. But there are other mods using lumber.
I try to be courteous here. I could have stayed with what I have and rejected
RK's 'whole package' idea. I don't think I lose by updating my choppers.

Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: brads3 on June 13, 2018, 10:30:00 AM
hmmmm,NILLA look what you started LOL you now have half the people confused and the other half trying to figure out which is which. KIDD we like having different modders with different ways of doing things. if everyone used lumber for all buidings,we would have a stampede.it is good to have a balance and build small villages and work up to bigger houses and cities.

     to NILLA's point of making tools and clothng in 1 shed,i usually leave the building set to 1 output item.unless there is a shortage of something. the game has limitations that won't allow bannies to do things in their houses that would have been done. worksheds and the workplace mod is kind of an extenstion of the bannies houses.just like you add a room to your house now for a sewing room or a garage for tools.

     i think TOM is concerned that a new upgraded mod will affect the vanilla wood chopper,causing it to be over-productive. if you are under RED's RK choice mod,that wouldn't be an issue.without it though,you would see double firewood if using the vanilla chopper. TOM don't worry i didn't load the upgrade. it would override too many other mods. CC,mini,pine,etc.

      i agree with the logic of it. balance of lumber and firewood from the same cutter has always been an issue for modders.this is 1 of those problems with the game coding by LUKE. sometimes new mod won't override other mods even if it is put high in mod order.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 13, 2018, 11:43:21 AM
Do I understand correctly that the latest idea is to reduce how much firewood the various woodcutters and Lumber yards produce? I can't imagine why anyone would think thats a good idea!?

Call me a cheat - doesnt matter to me an iota - I believe there's no 'right' way to play the game except the way thats pleases you personally the best!

Mods with a reduced output from the woodcutter are there for quite some time, it's not new; I know of RK Ed and the North, I also think @Necora had some chopper with a lower output. And yes, I (and many other people) find woodcutter overpowered, especially if you use firewood to trade with. I have seen a single woodcutter make 1000 firewood each year (it's not common but possible). You need 1 log for 4 firewood; a profit of 3,5 for each. This means that this "super chopper" can support a small village of 35 people with food, if you sell the wood and buy food for it.

It's a bit different, if you only use firewood to heat your houses and you have a lot of vanilla woodhouses or similar fuel consuming houses. Especially on harsh, this super chopper can only support something like 20 houses with firewood. It sounds more reasonable. Or is it really? Where is the incentive to build better houses that use less fuel?

Now you can say, a normal chopper doesn't make 1000 firewood each year. That's true! And it's true, because firewood is probably the product, that's most dependant on a good location of the workplace of all. Logs are heavy and a woodcutter can only get 10 at the time and he needs a lot of them (our super cutter needs 250, which means 25 times to the store and back or even more, if the store holds less than 10 logs ). My guess is, that if you are short on firewood @LadyMarmalade there's not enough logs close enough to the chopper (at least it is the problem in my games, if I am short on firewood).

I know and I find it good, that we all have our different playstyles and that we can enjoy Banished in different ways. I absolutely agree, that there is no "right" way, or maybe I disagree  ??? ;) ; there are a lot of "right" ways. We all have our own and we can all find "our" mods. And that's perfect. I didn´t want to offend you or anyone else by calling it a "cheat" to use mods to get more firewood or more of something else. I'm sorry.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: LadyMarmalade on June 13, 2018, 12:00:33 PM
Oh @Nilla, please don't apologise. My comment wasn't directed at anyone at all and definitely not at you!  It's probably more a self-protection thing because deep down I know I do take advantage of 'cheats' a bit but don't like admitting it! LOL

I think my problem is that I don't really understand the mechanics of the game half as well as most people here and success or failure of my towns is based more on good luck than good planning. I will take your advice re the woodcutters. I had discovered for myself recently that it seems to work well to have the woodcutter right next to the marketplace which is kinda along the same lines, I suppose!
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Gatherer on June 13, 2018, 02:54:15 PM
Or you can put Kid's Log Depot and a woodcutter next to each other. That way the woodcutter won't have to travel far to get logs.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: RedKetchup on June 13, 2018, 02:56:26 PM
the changes is made only to equal some numbers when the buildings compete each other, for the wood cutter it changes nothing overall

instead to take a trunk and get 4 firewood in 15mins, you take 2 trunks and get 8 firewood in 30 mins. thats totally the same. it just change things for the lumbermill, the way it works.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 14, 2018, 03:31:08 AM
Or you can put Kid's Log Depot and a woodcutter next to each other. That way the woodcutter won't have to travel far to get logs.

Yes, or any other specialized store, market, cart, where a vendor "drags" logs close to the chopper. But if you have one vendor just for logs and one efficient chopper, it's two people and it might be better to have two less efficient chopper without vendor instead. So there are no obvious solutions for this, as so often; no "best way". By the way, it's one of the things, that makes Banished interesting also after playing it as much as I have. :) (Together with all the fantastic mods, of course  :)  :) ) But the location of a woodcutter at a market is a "classic". A good choice @LadyMarmalade. Another good choice is to have a chopper close to where the forester put his logs or close to a trading port, where you import logs. To order logs for firewood is another "classic".

This thread's name is "Funsted-Industry Mining in the North". Not much of that so far. :-\ Anyway; I built my first DS Industrial building yesterday (if we exclude the small workshop for wagon parts only). It's an Industrial Blacksmith. After I've built it, I realized, that it can't make iron and I don't want to build the large Blast Furnace, yet. It's no problem. I like the Nordic blacksmiths very much and they make iron from iron bloom. Now it will produce iron and the DS blacksmith the tools. I even made a second Nordic blacksmith in the same area, there was a suitable spot for it and I can compare the two different buildings, even if I think, that they use the same (Nordic) numbers.

I have two questions @Discrepancy:
-Hardened tools; how much better are they, compared to steel tools?
-What does the "Industry Trade Merchant"? I've read the menu and your homepage and if I understand it right, the merchants bring only industrial products to this port. My idea in this game is to produce industrial products, sell them and buy food (and maybe some other supply). I guess this port isn't suitable for that. But that would be the logic kind of port for a mod like this. Maybe here in the North a port for exporting industrial products for coins only. You will have to buy what you need in another kind of port.

First picture
I made this and the next screenshot as I first stopped my game yesterday evening. I wanted to watch a film but it was boring, so I went back to Banished and played a few more years instead, but I'll show these pictures anyway.

Year 25, start of the industrial era/area ;) I'm fond of these red houses, so I will build all new houses in this style for a while and I have also slowly started to upgrade the "old fashioned" houses. I guess, that there will be some DS house settlements on other parts of this map.

Second picture

Whole settlement in year 25.

Third picture
Expanded industrial area.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Discrepancy on June 14, 2018, 04:03:50 AM
I have two questions @Discrepancy:
-Hardened tools; how much better are they, compared to steel tools?
-What does the "Industry Trade Merchant"? I've read the menu and your homepage and if I understand it right, the merchants bring only industrial products to this port. My idea in this game is to produce industrial products, sell them and buy food (and maybe some other supply). I guess this port isn't suitable for that. But that would be the logic kind of port for a mod like this. Maybe here in the North a port for exporting industrial products for coins only. You will have to buy what you need in another kind of port.

1 - Hardened Tools have use value of 250, slightly better than Steel tools (200). weight is the same at 2.

2 - I agree.  I realised this myself when playing some more with it. In the update I'm working on right now I'm changing it to be an exporter of industrial goods (logs, stone, iron, coke, charcoal, timber, roof tiles & bricks, raw materials (sand, lime, clay), and will now only import Foods, household fuels, herbs, tools, clothing, utensils.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 14, 2018, 06:15:04 AM
Why not tools as export? Isn't that the endproduct, together with other industrial products from the other chains? You would hardly be intrested in exporting rawmaterials only, unless you've changed the productivity/profit of these products and made them more profitable. I don´t think, I would like that. From my point of view, it should be more profitable to produce and sell as complex products as possible.

How do you find the idea of a port for export only with coins as payment? And other ports for import? You have already made one port for food import only, if I remember it right. It would solve my old problem with a well working autotrade.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Discrepancy on June 14, 2018, 06:44:44 AM
easy enough to do in the north. I will add a few variants of build options.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 15, 2018, 03:00:08 AM
I just see, that I made a lot of screenshots yesterday, so today I'll show several pictures and tell a little bit to each. I have started to make notes of the production and I have a few reliable numbers, but I think I will make a larger post about it a bit later, instead of writing a little bit about it here and there.

First picture
Isn't it a beauty? Well, I don't mean the vanilla trading port . :-\ ;) I mean the DS lumber mill, but it can also be said about the Nordic Glasswork and Brickmaker. Old industrial buildings are in real oft beautiful, at least to my eyes. Nice that they also are in Banished.  :)

Second picture
Why does she show this picture, you may think? There's nothing to see!  ??? No, there isn't and that's the point! I'm trying to plan (!)  ;D an industrial center. I have the ambition, to let everyone be happy. So my plan is to locate as many "bad buildings" together as possible and let no one live in that area. I don't know, if it pays off with these large unhappiness circles, but it will be fun to try. Only, this black color is hard to see for an old lady. I gave it up and made a second attempt in winter. It was better but only if the wheather was nice.

Third picture
Snow, a brake in planning new industry! I had time to take a look into some houses. I'm about to upgrade the old houses in an area with uneducated people. This is a segregated society, only educated in the industrial part of the village, only uneducated in the farming area. I keep track. If the Bannis try to rebel, I take action.  :-[ But here I really don't know what to do. Uneducated blacksmiths at the inn; a profession where education makes a lot of difference. There are educated laborers in the red houses, where the tavern attic sign is shown. I even started the glass and brickmakers close to the inn and let the vendor in the close cart work. No change! Pure rebellion! >:(

Fourth picture
(Almost) the whole settlement as i stopped the game in year 40.

Fifth picture
Upgraded startvillage in new design. If I understand it right @Tom Sawyer, the sauna loses it's relevance together with the red houses. I've demolished one of them and can see no difference.

Sixth picture
Industrial area. You can see, that most people are happy. As far as I have seen, everyone in the village is happy (Also that envious couple I wrote about in one of the first post. It took about 20 years but finally, they realized, that they had a good life) There are a few single houses out in the woods and pastures, that haven't any happiness buildings in their neighborhood, yet. But it will come, as the settlement grows.

Seventh picture
New industrial area. You can see some of the buildings, I planned. There is more to come.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 16, 2018, 02:11:34 AM
Yesterday I didn't play much; nice wheather, nice football game, nice husband........ :)

First picture
You can see my strategy, to keep the people happy in the industrial area, where many buildings have a big black circle.

There is one area with many overlapping black circles, where no one will live. The houses for the workers are just outside the circles. It's alright, if a black circle touches the backside of a house. Maybe the distance from work is too far with this strategy. Maybe they spend more time walking between house and workplace, than they would have spent idling with 2 stars less. I don't know. I might build the same production buildings somewhere else on the map later and locate homes as close as possible to compare.

The large blast furnace has a huge black circle. I don't think, it's a good idea to locate the houses of the workers outside it. It would be too far. Instead I've built it a bit separate from the other black buildings. You can compensate the bad influence of one black circle with "good" buildings, maybe even two but I don't think more. As far as I have seen, the effect of the "good" buildings only work once for each category. Maybe there are some exceptions, I haven't discovered, yet. I will look a bit more into it during this game. Anyway, the houses inside this big black circle aren't influenced by any other "bad" building but from all "good", so everyone is happy, also in the close Bryggen house.

One question @Discrepancy; the Industry Market contains a lot of different goods, among others tools and clothing. Why these consumers products as well? You know, that vendors don't steal from eachother and if you locate these markets close to your production sites, in order to have a good supply of raw materials (what make sense), I'm pretty sure, that most tools and clothes produced in the neighborhood, would land here. Vendors from other part of the settlement can't get them and there will be a bad distribution of tools and clothing to other areas. So my request is, to take tools and clothings away from the Industrial Store.

Another request to you @Discrepancy, is to set the default number of vendors in all markets (and also all production sites) to 1. From my first vanilla games, I've always found it annoying that vendors, traders, foresters, gatherers, miners..... disappears from some sites as soon as a new building is done, just because the default number is larger than 1. Maybe you didn't even want to start production in the new site at once. Some modders like Red and Tom has changed this. The default number is always 1 in all of their buildings and it's much more pleasant to play that way.

Second picture
Even if my ambition was to write shorter blogs, I also have a complain/question/request/suggestion (?)  ??? :P to @Tom Sawyer. I have mentioned it before, but we haven't really discussed it. I don't like the balance of textiles/clothing and meat. Especially with uneducated workers. My ambition is to have enough pastures to be able to make warm clothes for my population. Maybe it's not necessary on "mild" but I think it pays off on "harsh", so I find, it should be possible. Together with a hunter out in the woods, these pastures aren't enough to make warm coats for everyone. There's enough textiles to make enough clothes, but I need to make some simple wool coats as well. And the place swims in meat. I have seen this in all my latest games. It will improve a bit when everyone get educted but still; if you want to have enough textiles for warm coats, there will be a lot more meat, than you need.

I know @Tom Sawyer, that you have well calculated numbers and some thoughts about them. In this case what are your thoughts? I think it might be a good idea to set the amount of meat (especially beef) down and increase the amount of leather or maybe better; reduce the input by the tailor.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Gatherer on June 16, 2018, 02:34:51 AM
Short term solution to your excess meat problems could be to not process beef into smoked meat.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 16, 2018, 03:33:41 AM
I know. And you are probably right. There´s a lot of beef, so I don´t process all, but somehow I also find, it´s somehow the point, to process food as far as possible. In fact, it´s even worse, than it seems. All these daler, silver and gold (I have more in the ports) mostly come from selling meat.  :-\
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 17, 2018, 02:43:29 AM
Since I started to talk about all my meat yesterday, I will go on and tell my strategy for supporting the people. From the beginning I was self sufficient on all food. I grew apples, rye, barley, cabbage, turnips, onions. In summer everyone went out in the woods to pick blueberries and mushrooms. I was increasing the food diversity with trade; bought fruit, I don't grew for apples and blueberries; corn, and wheat for barley,; peppar, beans, potatoes, eggs, crayfish for smoked meat. (This because people get happy from many different kind of food). I also bought salt and sugar to process as much food as possible.

Now after I´ve built some industry and the population increased, I don't grow any vegetables. Sometimes I order vegetables, mainly cabbage but mostly I just buy all vegetables, and some fruit and grain the merchants bring. I try to process as much rye, cabbage, meat and fish as I can. There are 4 meat smoker; one for each; salmon, mutton, beef, venison and a handful farmers workshops. Since there is more beef than the other proteins, I sometimes switch salmon and mutton to beef. (Venison smoker is out in the woods, by the hunter and if it's short on venison, the farmer work as laborer.) If I don't forget, I still send everyone out in the woods to pick wild fruit in late summer.

At the beginning when everyone was uneducated, I bough tools and iron, when a merchant brought some. If I didn't get enough, I also produced iron and iron tools. Since I was short on textiles and clothes, I bought cheap clothes and leather. Now I buy some raw materials, if they are brought; iron ore, stone, clay, sand, leather. I also use to buy lumber and sometimes other things, if I´m short on them; I´ve just bought some coke, that I normally produce.

First picture
You can see the content in my ports. I have 2 small and I've just built my 3. big port. The small port left also contain some cheese, not shown on the picture. I "buy" all coins, gold and silver I can get. I barter trade some smoked meat also to the low price, just to get rid of it, but usually I sell to the higher price or use coins as payment. Now I use to trade with most merchants. The only one who's always sent away without any business, is the merchant who just want to pay good for wood products.

Second picture
The industrial area grows slowly. I should have calculated better as I planned it. The blast furnace can support more than 3 blacksmiths. If I locate more of them here, houses will land in more than 1 black circle. One solution would be to build some of the Nordic blacksmiths without black circle, but it feels a beet like "cheat", so I'll find something else.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 18, 2018, 04:11:54 AM
I promised some numbers in that other thread. First a small recap of my basic thoughts about balancing a trade economy: (Sorry, this is very long and only interesting for "balancing freaks" and I hope @Discrepancy, who has to do the admirable, difficult job!)

Most things are more expensive in the North. A worker need food, fuel, clothes and tools to a value of about 450 each year (vanilla 150). But he also need to support children, students, vendors, traders, teachers, builders, laborers and other not directly producing people. I just looked into my game. I have 101 producing adults, 135 children and students, 49 not directly producing adults. I don't know, how representative this is for all games from everyone, but to me and my playstyle, it's quite normal, especially with the modded happiness system and "real time ageing". Each producing person need to support almost 2 more people.

If we look at your industrial buildings @Discrepancy, with the thought, that it should be possible to run them, as a real industry; produce something with a profit, sell it and buy what you need. Each chain need a profit of at least 1300 for each worker. And I don't think, it can work, if none of the chains would bring more than this. You also need to finance building materials to expand (if you buy the material or produce them yourself doesn't matter). I don't say, that every step need this profit; but if the average of each worker in the chain is between 1300 and 2000, I think it would be challenging enough, but still possible to run large scale.

There's another very important thing; logistic (as always in Banished). The production from these "chains" variates much depending on location of the sites and how much raw material is available close. This big industrial store for all these materials doesn't really work, unless you locate every site from every production chain close to every market and that's not possible. (Only taking the consumers goods away, doesn't help much). I'll just tell two examples from this game.

Because of the happiness system and the huge black circle from the blast furnace, I decided to locate it a bit apart from other "black buildings". I built an industrial market close, because I wanted a lot of iron ore, coke and charcoal close. I also built industrial markets close to the blacksmiths/coker. After a while, I wondered, why there was no iron in the store close to the blacksmiths. I noticed, that almost all of my 2000 iron was stored in the market close to the blast furnace (but nothing in the close industrial barn). I have now replaced the large store with a small wagon vendor. It works a bit better but the worker still prefer this wagon over the close barn. (first picture)

I have one large nice specialized stockpile for clay and sand close to these pits and the industries, who needs these materials close to it. It worked very well, until I built these markets in the "iron area". Now the brick and glassmaker often need to get their material in these far away stores. When the population now starts to grow, I want to test the oil/flax chains on the other side of the village (I've started to prepare the land) but I don't think it will make much sense. The flax products will land in the markets in the "iron area" and markets in the flax area will be full of iron and ores. Some more specialisation of the markets is needed, to make this work good in a large scale.

The following numbers are based on this village. As I've said; the logistic isn't perfect but also not all too miserable.(I have worked a bit active with "fake demolishing" and other tricks)

Let's start with a couple of sites, I've turned off after realizing, that it's bad economy to let them run. I hope, I haven't miscalculated anything, but no guarantee ;) :

Lumbermill: I've already talked about it in that other thread and I'm actually using it, but mostly for firewood. One worker makes between 300 and 400 firewood depending on how much logs there are in the area. It's the same as the close chopper. (Also no good economy but you need firewood and I have no intention to export it)

Pottery; Input clay and charcoal; (the other options will not be much different)
production 100
input 20, output 32, profit 3 each
profit site: 300
suggestion: increase the price of pottery, maybe also the number of pottery produced in each "batch"  (3 clay+1 ind.fuel -> 6 pottery worth 12; input 20, output 72, profit each 8,7, estimated production 150, profit site 1300. This is to me the lowest reasonable numbers. If we also include digging for clay, that's not very profitable, and production of the fuel, it ought to be higher; a price for the pottery in the range 15-20)

Silver
Silver Mine: production average 30 (one year 36, next 24) profit 600
Silver furnace:
production 130
input 28, output 40, profit 3 each
profit site: 400
suggestion: I like, that you only get little silver ore out of the mine, but you need to get more silver from each ore and also increase the value of silver ore. (Silver is also used as coin in the North, so unless you negotiate with Tom, it's set to 10, which I find alright) Price silver ore 40, 1 ore+1 fuel-> 10 silver, input 48, output 100, profit 5,2 each, estimated production 325, profit 1700, average profit mine+process 1450. (This is also the lowest to me reasonable numbers, since you can only build one silver mine and the merchant bring very little, the profit could even be set higher than this)

This is long enough, I have more numbers from the iron/tool chain, that's in a good range. I'll write about it after the football game. Our team starts soon.

First picture
All iron in the red marked market, no iron in the blue marked market and barn.  :P

Second picture

Latest extention to the settlement. Here I make no efforts to make the people happy. I see no large difference, when I compare the production here and in the happy part of the settlement. But I haven't run it for long, so I can't say much yet.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 18, 2018, 07:32:25 AM
...continue: no good game but at least won... :)

Tools
I made the calculation on hardened tools. Steel tools has a little lower profit but also very profitable. I produce both. Hardened tools need more charcoal/coke and if I'm a bit short, I produce more steel tools. The production of steel tools is slightly higher. I use charcoal in some sites, coke in some. I made calculations for both, it's no big difference in economy, but  charcoal a little bit better. Because of these logistic problems I described, the production variates a lot. I have seen 150 but also less than 100. The average is about 120 hardened tools.

The premises for the calculations are, that you produce all raw material yourself. It is more profitable to buy some material, even to order it with ordering fee. The real profit is in the last step(s), not in producing raw material/fuel. That's the weakness with these numbers.

To produce these 120 tools worth 12 000 in trade you'll need (if you use coke):
120 iron ore     
240 coal 
68 logs

To process these material in different sites, you need 5,9 people:
1,7 blacksmiths
2,5 miner
0,8 forester
0,9 coke burner

The average profit for each worker is about 1500

Or if you use charcoal:
120 iron ore
128 logs

You need 5,6 worker in different sites:
1,7 blacksmiths
1,1 miner
1,2 forester
0,6 chopper
1 charcoal burner

The average profit is about 1600 for each worker

I've also produced some iron using lime. But it's not profitable (unless you buy material)

1 lime replaces one iron ore, otherwise it's the same numbers. The profit of the Hill Lime Kiln is low;
production 140
input 16, output 24, profit 2 each
profit site 280
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: rkelly17 on June 18, 2018, 07:57:39 AM
I noticed, that almost all of my 2000 iron was stored in the market close to the blast furnace (but nothing in the close industrial barn).

@Nilla, I have never played the North and don't always pay attention to buildings I don't use, so I could be way off base here. Is the North different from vanilla, CC, etc.? I am used to iron going into storage yards, not barns. Is the industrial barn a special kind of barn that stores things that usually go in storage yards?
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 18, 2018, 08:21:07 AM
Yes, @rkelly17; the North is very much different from all other mods. It changes the gameplay in different ways; other "flags", other production chains with other numbers of production and trade values, changed trade, where merchants pay a different price for the goods in barter trade, introduction of coins, introduction of this new "happiness system" (can also be used outside the North but is here fully applied) different climates, startconditions and maps.........

It's partly a different game. At least you need to rethink your old ways of playing (no use to make firewood for export as example, it's one of the least profitable goods). It's well balanced and the buildings are really, really nice, often made with real old buildings as model. One disadvantage (or not, depending on how you see it); because of its own flags and limits, it's not compatible to all other mods.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Tom Sawyer on June 18, 2018, 01:43:17 PM
Actually it is compatible to most other mods from WOB and many are even patched by the North mod to work balanced and with special resources. Suitable and recommended mods are listed on banishedventures.com/north-compatible (https://www.banishedventures.com/north-compatible/). :)

Reading your last posts I agree with the point that meat output can be lowered. Especially beef, together with an increased milk output and reworked tailoring or use of leather.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Discrepancy on June 19, 2018, 12:54:48 AM
@Nilla,  :) thank you very much for the detailed posts and production numbers, they help a lot.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 19, 2018, 04:48:59 AM
You're welcome @Discrepancy. I'm happy, that you can use some of it. I don't expect you to follow my advice completely, it's just something to think about. It's your mod and it will be best, if you follow your vision. You know, I like to look at the game this way. I make these calculations, I write about here anyway. Not quite as detailed but as an approximate estimation.

I just saw, that I didn't fully answer your question @rkelly17. I got caught up by praising the North. You asked about the industrial barn. It's not a part of the North, it belongs to the DS Industrial Mining Mod. This version is adapted to the North, but I think there's also a version for "vanilla gameplay". This barn holds everything (as far as I can see) except food, also "stockpile stuff".

First picture
Now I have two fully developed industrial areas. In one of them (on the right side of picture) all people are happy. Their houses are not in more than one black circle. (I have tested; some people stay happy, if they live inside two black circles, but not all of them. Additional happiness buildings have no effect.) Of course, this makes the distance between workplace and house longer. In the other industrial area on the upper left side, I haven't bothered about happiness, but everyone live close.

I have compared the production in the different sites. Generally I can say:

Happy people (5*) who live a bit away from their workplaces produce more than half happy (3*) close to their workplaces. But access to close raw material is the most important thing.

The biggest difference shows the mine, who only has a small input of logs, similar access in both areas. Average production for 1 worker; happy :95, unhappy :75. The blast furnaces also show similar difference, if there's enough ore and charcoal in the wagon close to the "happy" site: 190 - 150.

The difference between the blacksmiths are not big; 120 - 110. But the people have to search more for material in the "happy" area. The production of the coke oven in the "unhappy" area is even slightly higher 195 -200. The production of coal is too low in the "happy area".

Conclusion: Also with these large happiness detraction circles; happiness pays off, even when the workers have to live a bit away. I find the DS circles generally a bit too big (blast furnace much too big). But on the other side; the Nordic circles are sometimes a bit too small. I find @Discrepancy and @Tom Sawyer; if you could "meet the half way"; both make some changes and land somewhere in between, it would be perfect.

Second picture
I have a question about the coal pits. What are your thoughts about them @Discrepancy? They seem to have a minimum of 3 miners, it works with less, but you can't set it to less than 3 but up to 8. There are only 2 miners working at the same time. The output doesn't change much, if you use 2, 3, 4 or more miners. When I use 3 or more the others, work as laborers anyway. If one isn't far away on laborer's work, he might "jump in" at the pit, when one of the 2 needed miners takes a brake (go idling) but 2 miners make the highest output for each worker.

A small request, not at all important; just something to increase the "designing options": It would be nice to have a "mirrored" version of the Industrial Blacksmith, so you could build them "back to back". I would have liked, to place the 4 I have on this picture that way. (Is anyone surprised to hear such a request from me? ;) )

Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Discrepancy on June 19, 2018, 11:59:01 PM
The coal bell pit I have made require 3 minimum miners because someone has to use the pulley system at ground level to get the other worker out of the pit.
But, there is an issue because I had only included 2 use_points for them to work at, I have fixed this for next version.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 20, 2018, 07:32:43 AM
I have now started to test the rest of the DS Industrial buildings. Flax-linen-oil; very nice buildings, all fitting so good together, but unfortunately; an unprofitable chain. Another problem is that linen can't be used to make clothes in any of the Nordic buildings. There's also one weird thing/bug: It looks like people can eat flax but not linseed, at lest there are some flax in the houses but no linseed. The opposite could make sense, linseed mixed in bread, porridge and cereals but I've never heard of eating flax.

Flax planter and harvester
The idea with two different workers is very nice. Just a pity, that they go on to work their area in winter. I tried to micromanage and turned the sites off in winter but in this larger settlement, where I don't micromanage any fields or orchards, I forgot to turn them on in time. So now they do their tedious "work" also in winter. These two workers make less flax than two farmers on fields. The flax grows fast, so one farmer can manage quite a large field. The farmers do laborers work in winter and need less space. The output on trade value from a flax farmer or worker is low. This wouldn't matter much, if the following steps were very much more profitable, but I'm sorry to say; they are not.

Output flax harvester/planter: 280/2 =140 (and a few berries or mushrooms) ; trade value ~300
Flax farmer: 200; trade value 400

Flax weaver

This site makes something, I've been told, can't be done, as I suggested a lumber mill, that makes something like 2 lumber and 3 firwood from each log: One input, two different products out. Here 10 flax gives 1 linen and 8 linseed. I suppose you use some ingenious "trick" @Discrepancy . Maybe if I can't understand it fully, it would be nice to hear a bit more about this. Now I see in my numbers, that the output isn't exactly 1 +8 but pretty close: calculated 280 flax -> 208 lineseed + 28 linen
input 560, output 1056
profit site 500

Oil kiln
Another extraordinary building, with its tower. I love the look! So far I've only made lamp oil from linseed.
production 400
input 20, output 36, profit 1,8 each
profit site 720

If we instead use tallow and estimate the same production, the numbers are alright, especially as tallow is a by product from meat and textile production, opposite to linseed, that need two unprofitable steps to get;
input 8, output 36, profit each 3,1
profit site 1240

Suggestions to make the flax/oil chains profitable for export is difficult. There are so many different components to consider. I hear people say: Why bother? "The buildings are so nice, the flax fields are so beautiful, the flax workers are fun to watch. They are worth to build just because of that". Maybe it's true, but since they are called "Industrial" XXXX, I find that they also should work as industries; produce something with a profit, suitable for trade.

I will think a bit more about it and make some suggestions later or tomorrow.

First picture
Flax area.

Second picture
I'm also trying my "old Steckenpferd" autotrade. It's a good opportunity with all the export tools. I autotrade for food, salt and sugar in the small ports. But why does the merchant only want silver, gold and pennig and not much daler? :P :-\

Third picture
Here I want to build a "town". You can see, that  I haven't regulated the food import yet; I've bought too much. But the amount of daler gets down, so it looks to be an allright balance over all.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Discrepancy on June 21, 2018, 06:11:27 AM
haha, you are picking up all kinds of faults :) thank you.


I was aware of the low value production of the flax-linen chain. that is going to be re-done, thanks for the reminder.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 21, 2018, 07:14:15 AM
haha, you are picking up all kinds of faults :) thank you.
When I'm testing, I'm testing. I try too look at as many things I can. When I see something odd, I look closer into it and tell. :) I've seen one more thing, that might disturb other people more than me. The Bannis take shortcuts through the corners of the Bryggen Houses. I'm not sure it can be changed, if you want them to be buildable the way they are.

It isn't easier to suggest a good balance for the flax/oil chain today, but I'll make a try. There are many other possibilities, maybe you'll find something better. (I also hope, that there are no miscalculations, sometimes I simply "think too fast" and forget something)  :-\ :-[

First you need to decide; which product is the best suitable export product? I like "historically correct" products. Things that have paid an important part in the economy of a region I know of, somewhere in Northern Europe. One region in North/Middlesweden called Hälsingland, is known for its flax and linen production. The farmers and linen producers became wealthy and built big, beautiful farmhouses; called Hälsingegårdar. https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1282 (maybe also an inspiration for modders) So I would say: linen would be the natural export product. Linseeds as by product could be eatable food or as raw material for oil. So I would primary increase the profit for linen.

To increase the profit, we can increase the price of the product, the production or both. I can't produce linen clothing in this game but I find, it should be possible. So even if it would be the easiest way to go; I don't think, that we can raise the price of linen too much, it would mess up clothes production. Wool and leather have a slightly higher price in the North than vanilla, (8/5, 12/10). A value of 10 for linen could fit.

If we let the weaver work with the same speed as now, but instead make 8 linen and 8 linseed from 10 flax, it could work without too many changes. I had an annual production around 200 linseed. This suggestion would give an output with a value of 200*10+200*4 = 2800. If it needs two worker (1 flax farmer and one weaver) to produce this, it would give an average profit of the reasonable 1400 for each worker. You would need 280 flax. This means the production must increase about 50% on the fields and 100% for the harvester. To make a reasonable profit, also for the farmer, the price for flax could be increased to 4. It would still be less than vegetables but at least a flax farmer can support himself and a child. (I just saw that you can put more than one farmer in this planter/harvester location. That makes it more reasonable to set the output of a farmer of a field and a farm to about the same value.)

The only change I would make by the Oil Kiln is to set the input of linseed (and nuts) equal to tallow. It will make linseed and nuts a bit less profitable than tallow to process. Still no great export product, but at least profitable enough to make it an option.

First picture
Here @Tom Sawyer is an argument against storing meat in the hunter's lodge. Until recently I had no herbalists in this village. The herbs I had, came from laborers and used for export. Everyone lived close to a market or wagon vendor and the health was on 5 stars all the time. Then I discovered 1 person without any stars at all. Of course I needed to check out why. He came from this forester house. It is well in the circle of the wagon vendor but the hunter is closer. I have looked into the forester house and never seen anything except proteins; a lot of different proteins, that are carried out in the woods. The izbas closer to the wagon all have a big variety of food.

Second picture
My new town eveloves. One block is done, with a bakery in the yard. I didn't know what the townsfolk should do for a living, until I thought of the surrounding mountains. It will be a mining community. The town might look a bit too tidy, but it will be a "gold digger town".  We'll see if they can make their living out of it.
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 22, 2018, 04:15:49 AM
I'll now try to go back to one of my initial goal for this town; learning to write shorter blogs.  :-[ :-\

First picture
The happiness system still puzzles me; this family live only inside 2 happiness radii (chapel, wagon vendor) and are members of a church. The parents who have lived with good conditions all their lives are happy, the children not. This is a "rule". I've seen it several times as I've built a new village part: Adults are very easy to please, children not so.

The conclusion I make from this and other observations; the Bannis have a long memory. They remember good things and bad things for a long time.

Second picture
I find the silver anvil for spiritual happiness too cheap and small compared to the chapel. I don't think it's supposed to be built on a place like this.  ;) :-\

The missing ½ star of happiness comes from the people in the second industrial area, where all houses are close to "black industries". I'm sure it will improve as children start to move out and the number of people in each house gets down.

Third picture
This location might be more appropriate.

There are room for more mines in this area. Gold mining isn't "super profitable". It wouldn't work to support a whole settlement, just digging for gold, but at least a miner can support himself and one child.

Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Tom Sawyer on June 22, 2018, 05:41:00 AM
Wow, 9k dalers in your bank. The richest Nordic town ever! :)
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 22, 2018, 07:59:14 AM
Yes, too rich. The "problem" is, I still produce too much food myself, together with the good export products.
See picture; go Iceland go! The game starts now! :)
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: rkelly17 on June 22, 2018, 10:50:49 AM
See picture; go Iceland go! The game starts now! :)

 :'(
Title: Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
Post by: Nilla on June 22, 2018, 12:48:46 PM
 :'(