News:

Welcome to World of Banished!

Main Menu

City/Village building and Society building

Started by gatinho65, June 11, 2014, 04:14:25 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

gatinho65

I'm not a gamer. I was only ever interested in SimCity, right from the start, have played all version except the new one. I will never get tired of that game; in fact, it so takes over my life that I have to go cold turkey on it for a year or so at a time, just not to lose my spouse and the rest of my life!

I'm a huge reader, no tv for me, just downloaded shows I can choose or Netflix, lots of documentaries. Yeah, I'm a freak. But one day browsing the stacks at the library for things to catch my eye (you can't browse electronic books, except by following links sometimes on Amazon; when libraries go all digital my time on this earth will be over lol), I came across a title, Reality is Broken: Why Games Make Us Better and How They Can Change the World. I'm not into games but the title was just too intriguing. I really enjoyed the book, it made a lot of sense to me and helped me 'understand' my friends who do love gaming in a whole new way.

Intrigued by a world that had just become more interesting and visible to me because of the book, I decided to find out if there were games out there that I could actually get into. That led me to discover, late to be sure, games like Tropico and Civ. Very fun for me, if sometimes challenging to the spouse who simply has never seen me spend much time in front of a screen, except for marathon bouts of SimCity every other year or so lol.

But I totally get the idea that we play games to engage in behaviors that 'real life' in these times simply doesn't usually allow for. That can be a whole wide range of behaviors, good and bad. Since in my mind, games meant those first person shooter games, I didn't really know there were other types. Games that allow me to shape things, create things, build things, have control (yes I love control) but not only to kill or compete.

What I really think could be strengthened in Banished is the society building aspect. City building is great fun, I studied urban planning, I am addicted to gardening and design, how could I not love any game that allows for those things? But what I really love in Tropico is that it is just as much about building a society as it is about creating a beautiful tropical town (which actually is hard as some of the required buildings are just hideous lol).

In Tropico you have an explicit role, you are dictator. You can play to eliminate all rivals to your power, acquire great wealth, assassinate trouble makers, keep your citizens poor and hungry and unhappy and then try to kill them when they rebel. Or, you can build a society that gives them what they want, in addition to a beautiful place to look at and to live.

And in History Rewritten, the mod for Civ IV, if you don't provide things your civilization's citizens want, cultural and health related items for the most part (plus religion plays a big role), they refuse to work and eventually they rebel and you have to fight them.

Virtue has concrete game rewards, its not just about style. Yes, that means the game has an 'agenda' planned into it, but so what? That makes it a game I want to play. Those who hate being virtuous can play in Evil Dictator mode (which can also be lots of fun once in a while) or can go back to playing Grand Theft Whatever.

We don't really have an explicit role in Banished, even though we are pretty much the god/mayor/dictator. And although happiness and health count, I think they could matter much more. Since I'm so programmed already by Tropico, I have yet to actually experience low happiness or health in Banished as I'm always trying to make sure they never get low; I don't really know what the consequences might be, except perhaps an earlier death (only a suspicion, I really have no idea). The lowest they've ever been for me was when I hit my first death wave before building the cemetery, I'd simply forgotten it.

Unhappy workers could idle a lot more, or wander a lot more (then they already do in the unpatched version lol), have work slowdowns, neglect crops, hang out and complain at the well, or even burn down something. If we don't build a society that they want to live in, there should be more consequences than just more suffering for them. Yeah, if they engage in things that cause the whole society to suffer, they still pay and we can just start a new game. But there should be much stronger incentives for Us as gods/mayors/dictators to make sure they live near work, have attractive places to live (not those packed slums like in some pictures lol), enough food and in variety, a school, a church, those elements that some say are unnecessary. They should be a bit more necessary or have strongly negative consequences for being ignored over time.

Not everyone will like this, so I suppose these ideas should be more in the mod section, but I do think these elements are already there. I only vaguely know that the ecological and sustainability issues were certainly important but not all included in the final game. But I think the social element is there as well and should also be emphasized. Its part of the challenge that makes Civ IV and Tropico endlessly fascinating and fun to play, the elements of tension don't just disappear once you reach a certain level of development or wealth. The expectations also ramp up, you are always needing to achieve something social, other than just aesthetics and prosperity. After we've gotten our towns going, it could be about more than packing the map or trading, it could be more strongly about society building.

rkelly17

@gatinho65, there are those who maintain that citizens with low happiness idle more. I can neither confirm nor deny the truth of that. I think that Banished could be even more fun with some policy options. For example, other than the achievement for letting in X number of immigrants (I got it, but can't remember the exact number) why not have consequences for denying nomads? At a certain point it isn't really much of an option: 50 uneducated, possibly disease-bearing nomads show up at city hall and I already have all the educated laborers I need. I hit "Deny" without even thinking about it. But what if in doing that I incurred some negative consequences? Then I'd have to think about it and consider pros and cons. We already have choices in Banished (e.g., mega trading city vs. smaller agricultural town), but more in the "society-building" direction would be nice.

PS: Like you my basic games are SimCity (except 2013) and Civ. I also like Cities in Motion 1 and 2 because of the transit planning aspect. Some of the gang here are more serious about gaming in general, but I go more for "society-building." I think that is also why I am a model railroader.

Kaldir

#2
I agree with giving the health/unhappiness a more pronounced role and making it matter more. It comes close to my biggest 'issue' with this game: What I miss in Banished is feedback from the citizens.

If your citizens are unhappy, they might idle more, but you can't really see that unless you rigorously follow them and keep notes. Sure, production will go down a bit, but that is also hard to track. You can only compare last years with the current (incomplete) year. And if you are expanding, then production might just be going up a little less.
If they are unhealthy, they might die at a younger age but that is even harder to track since you can't find the age of someone who just died. The population graph might bend down a bit, but that is influenced by more factors (birth waves, expansion, nomads, etc.) and is mostly visible afterwards and not while it happens.

The game feels slightly 'bipolar' in a sense that the citizens are named and linked in generations, making it pretty personal and immersive, while also putting almost all feedback for your actions in the global statistics (town hall graphs and such), making it a quite distant/disconnected game (4 citizens died? well, it's only 1.5% and I have enough laborers to fill the gap).

Other games solve this with city hall protests, speech balloons, event lists, newspaper flashes, and more. Most of these have their negative side as well, and would not all fit into Banished. But I would like some more feedback, where I can base my actions on what I see happening or what the citizens tell me, instead of checking graphs and numbers (100 food per citizen, 9x9 farm optimum, etc.) and working from predefined strategies (crossroad build for instance).

Edit: lost a paragraph while editing, put it back in again now.

mariesalias

I play many types of games. I have, in essence, been a gamer since i was a child. Back then, it was many types of card games and board games. Later I branched out into pool, arcade, and console games. As an adult, I have branched out into many types of games, though not first person shooters as they activate my motion sickness, but puzzle and city builders are still my favorites. 

I think expanding on the social aspects in Banished could be interesting, if done right. It is something I go back and forth on in my own head. On one hand, there are enjoyable aspects to this type of play, but on the other hand, I don't really want Banished trying to be like other games. I actually love that Banished does not try to be like every other city builder. I mean, if I want a game that offers all those choices, why not just play that game? Don't get me wrong, I love games like Civ! I love Civ itself so much that I have to restrict myself with it  as I have lost entire weekends to that game more times then I'd care to admit. There is so much to manage and consider and think about while playing, that it is a little bit of Heaven for me. :D

I also love Banished and play it a lot, but I can save and quit Banished when I am tired or have something else I should be doing. The challenge level may not be as high as Civ, but I don't think it needs to be. I find the differences between Banished and most other city builders to be refreshing. Though, I do agree that there could be improvements to increase its enjoyment. It seems like a fine line though to me; to keep the charm and deceptive simplicity of Banished while trying to introduce some more challenging aspects, such as the social aspect. I am interested to see what modders will come up with for the game and how mods will effect its re-playability.

There are already so many different ways people play Banished, that I do think there is room to expand on this and still retain the essence of the game.

gatinho65

You guys point out some important things. It is kinda bipolar, you have all these named individuals and can even track generations using tools created by players, yet you are also a bit remote from the villagers. I'd like to see a bit more of a connection too. One of the fun things about Tropico is you can hear their thoughts on issues and see their happiness level in detail as you hover over them. And in Tropico everyone knows who you are, you have a personality as well, depending on how you play.

But yet, I too enjoy that the actual challenges of this game ease up a bit after you keep them alive and they start to flourish. No need to maintain a constant state of tension, as in some of the other games mentioned. Since I really really really love just following people around in the beautiful world of Banished, I can do that more once I don't have to worry so much about other aspects, even the ones I like to micromanage.

Each year of the game takes me about an hour to play, even if I dare to move up for bits of time to 5X. Mostly, I love how slowly it goes at 1X and 2X, and during hour after hour, I never get tired of the sounds. No other game has been like that. SimCity gets too overwhelming with traffic noise, Tropico's music gets exhausting after a while, plus all the constant news flashes and propaganda content, which is hilarious and clever but not for endless hours. If Banished was at a constant level of tension, like Civ, it might get way too easy to not just take the time to enjoy the world that Luke has created.

So, on balance, it really is quite successful as it is. Like so many other great games, I just hope that the mod kit allows people to experiment with different tweaks to some of these aspects that are beyond just the aesthetic. That way we can fool around and see what we like, and then go back to vanilla at any time. Vanilla is already seriously great fun.

Since it seems okay to let the topic of whatever thread amble on into a variety of directions, I might as well ask questions here rather than start another thread;)

So, did Luke really create everything in this game, including all the trees, the animated people, the game engine, everything? Wow, that is some kind of talent, as it covers so many things. I spent way way way too many hours on the steep learning curve with 3d modeling software in order to make my own content for SimCity. Its so tough, yet addictive in its own way. Collection of textures and models crowd my limited hard drive, yet I have no intention of deleting anything. In case I can go back and relearn it all to create something new.

Anybody know what was used to make the graphics in Banished? Are the trees and plants xfrog? What sort of system is used to bring them into the game? How did he capture the amazing quality of light in this game? Getting in as close as possible, its just amazingly beautiful, the shadows and shimmers, its a whole other world from what I'm used to in SimCity. Tropico had great graphics, I always wondered how they were created as well. But I'm just amazed, even playing at less than the optimal level of graphic display on my little mac mini, how gorgeous this game is.

Kaldir

Quote from: gatinho65 on June 12, 2014, 01:02:37 PM
So, did Luke really create everything in this game, including all the trees, the animated people, the game engine, everything?

Yes, he did. Pretty amazing, really.
Although I thought the game had a Credits button (did I dream this, am I overlooking it, or was it patched out?) which showed someone with the same lastname for audio.

Quote from: gatinho65 on June 12, 2014, 01:02:37 PM
Anybody know what was used to make the graphics in Banished? Are the trees and plants xfrog? What sort of system is used to bring them into the game? How did he capture the amazing quality of light in this game? Getting in as close as possible, its just amazingly beautiful, the shadows and shimmers, its a whole other world from what I'm used to in SimCity. Tropico had great graphics, I always wondered how they were created as well. But I'm just amazed, even playing at less than the optimal level of graphic display on my little mac mini, how gorgeous this game is.

I don't know what he uses to model the stuff, but the graphics system to show it in game is written in C++ like the rest of the game, as far as I know.


I suppose you didn't read (all) the older blog posts on the official SRS website. You might find some of them interesting:

This one gives a nice summary of creating this game from scratch.
Here is a large post about artwork.
Another talks a lot about reflections on the water, nicely illustrated.
You might find this one interesting as well, as it is all about creating the audio

salamander

What I've heard (or read) is that Luke did everything, except the music.  I'm pretty impressed one person could do all, or even nearly all, of this game.

@Kaldir, I've read some of the blogs, but not all of them -- they sound interesting.  Thanks for summarizing them (with links) in one place.

Kaldir

You're welcome. These are just a few I found interesting, but if you have the time, it's worth reading most of the blogs. I loved the more techy blogs as well, and his debugging stories.

gatinho65

Thanks for those links, I haven't read any of that. Like I said, I avoided news of the game because I knew it would be too hard to want to play it and I couldn't on my mac. I'll enjoy catching up.

Here's a pic from my old forest park, in Church Valley of my village, a long stretch from the bridge to the church, cemetery and tavern. This isn't even at the higher settings of the graphic display and still, so pretty.


gatinho65

Or this one, the old town center, where there are still a few houses and the old barn of the original settlement, but I added the Town Hall. I love the light in this pic.


salamander

#10
I like the way you left the trees standing as you developed these areas.  My 'downtown' areas always seem to come out looking like asphalt jungles, or at least dirt/stone jungles.  Do you leave trees standing as you build, or do you have foresters nearby to plant in between roads, buildings, etc...?

Kaldir

I love the way you leave those little green spots open for trees. Those pictures look pretty nice.

gatinho65

Here's the part of old forest park in front of the church, the space shared by deer and a worshipper idling lol;)

gatinho65

Here's the farm where I would live, right off old forest park, you can see the church peaking above the trees.

I had to plant plant plant in order to have any trees to build anything, the map really didn't start with much. I have about 75 citizens and 7 forest huts, they are everywhere and only now in the second decade can I actually do much cutting. So, some trees you see were twigs that were there originally, some were planted over time by the forester. As the oldest ones fall, the green spots left amid the un-uniform dirt/paving of the park will let the guys plant new trees. I'm very happy to have learned they will do that, plant trees in one square.

I've noticed that the patch of trees needs to be fairly large or it will not regenerate. The only forest I had in the original setting was against the big hill, I left it there and didn't cut it, but over time all the trees died and no new ones were generated. Yet. You can see some of that in the gallery I've started, which has some higher up shots so you get a sense of the layout.

gatinho65

Here is a shot of the old center from a bit higher up, orchards and pasture behind town hall, you can see another green park next to town hall where deer come. Plus, a pic from higher up of church valley, so you can see the long strip of old forest park. I put the tavern across the park from the church, wanted to see how many people go to each lol. I think people still prefer both the wells in the park to either the church or tavern!