Author Topic: Nilla -Kentworthport, the miserable, sick town  (Read 10407 times)

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Offline Nilla

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Nilla -Kentworthport, the miserable, sick town
« on: September 16, 2015, 06:43:21 AM »
Iīve been wondering; we always try to provide diversified food and build herbalists to get a healthy population. We also build graveyards, brewers, churches and other buildings, that makes our population happy. My question; is this really necessary?

Have anyone studied how big impact the health and happiness have?

I know that people visit the herbalist if they "lose a hart". I also know that they "visit the herbalist" just briefly if there isnīt a herbalist, but they donīt go anywhere. I suppose they just stop produce in that short time. But do we know, how much less they really produce with a bad health?

The same with happiness. Itīs said that they idle more if they are unhappy. I donīt know if itīs true. I know that also people with 5 stars idle.

I want to study this in my new town, started yesterday.

A bad health is easy to make: Give the people only one kind of food. I will produce only proteins. I hope that I can produce enough to feed the population. With the other types of food, there will be some trouble with the clothing, so sorry @assobanana76. This town is the opposite to your Las Vegans: They eat fish and meat and later, when I get some seeds; nuts.

Happiness might be a bit more difficult to reduce. Of cause there will be no ale, no graveyards, no churches, but mines and maybe quarries in the living areas. But Iīm afraid this is not enough. The one thing that make people really miserable, is if someone in the household dies. I donīt think itīs very reliable just to build no hospital and take every nomad and hope for a really ugly disease or letting every laborer, I can spare work in the mines and quarries, hoping for a lot of work related accidents. I suppose I have to force some starvation. MEAN!   :-[  ;D  :-[

Iīll show some pictures later


Offline irrelevant

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Re: Nilla -Kentworthport, the miserable, sick town
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2015, 06:50:23 AM »
Excellent experiment! I will be very interested to see what you learn here. I am particularly curious to know whether lack of health has any effect on our guys' longevity.

Offline rkelly17

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Re: Nilla -Kentworthport, the miserable, sick town
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2015, 07:37:52 AM »
I donīt think itīs very reliable just to build no hospital and take every nomad and hope for a really ugly disease

Any time I've gotten a disease before building a hospital the sick citizens "visit the hospital" by standing on their front porch infecting a significant number of neighbors. Then the disease just hangs on and on--even if it's not one of the really bad ones. So the end result might be not just unhappy people, but dead people. But then I've never noticed that citizen health has any impact at all on who actually catches a disease.

When I'm starting a town on Medium without a grain and a vegetable, I notice that my farmers, who eat pretty much only what they produce and store in their own barn, are much less healthy than the people who live in the forest village eating from the hunter and gatherer and their barn, so unhealthy should happen pretty quickly and easily if you only provide one food type. The problem I would see is enough food to feed everyone in the early game when hunters and gatherers are necessary food producers. I suppose you could start on Medium and only build several of one type of farm. No hunters would also mean no coats and that might impact health and/or happiness (????).

Anyway, you've set quite a challenge for yourself. I'm going to follow to see what happens.

Offline RedKetchup

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Re: Nilla -Kentworthport, the miserable, sick town
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2015, 11:13:07 AM »
Happiness might be a bit more difficult to reduce. Of cause there will be no ale, no graveyards, no churches, but mines and maybe quarries in the living areas. But Iīm afraid this is not enough. The one thing that make people really miserable, is if someone in the household dies. I donīt think itīs very reliable just to build no hospital and take every nomad and hope for a really ugly disease or letting every laborer, I can spare work in the mines and quarries, hoping for a lot of work related accidents. I suppose I have to force some starvation. MEAN!   :-[  ;D  :-[

Iīll show some pictures later

living near a mine.. or a quarry... lose a loved person....  not have a full diet...

gives unhappiness, but specially losing someone is very devastating :P
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Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla -Kentworthport, the miserable, sick town
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2015, 12:12:15 PM »
@rkelly17 , I will have hunters and later sheep and cows. Meat is a protein, you know. But I will take the idea with no clothing and test it. Not from the start, but sometime after a while. I don't know, if it has any influence on health or happiness. But I will find out.

I like to have more such ideas : What might have an influence on happiness or health? What could be tested?

Now I will show you some screenshots.

First picture, year 2

Can you believe this: There are 5 homeless people and the teacher Darvil 17, who just left school himself, has to move out from home, together with the 13 year old student Line. Why?   ??? >:(

You can see I use the NMT-mod. The fish pond is very convenient in this case. For several reason:
1. I need a lot of fish!
2. The closest shore is very nice and flat, a perfect location for a couple of trading ports.
3. Compared to a normal located fishing hut, the fishpond produce more.
4. I can build it directly close to the starting cart and for fishers who normally carries their catch to the barns themselves, distance to to a barn is very important. I can build a barn later.
5. It's cheaper to build, than a fishing hut.

@Red Ketchup; I have made the suggestion before, but I will do it once more; The fishpond would be better balanced if it could hold only 2 fishers instead of 4. Maybe it makes you happy that it's not built in the mountain this time.  ;)

Second picture, year 4

The health is getting bad........

Third picture, year 6

........and worse

I think, this is about as far as it could get. Maybe if no children are born, it could get down a little bit more, but as long as there are babies born (always very healthy) the average will never be much lower. 

The grown up people all have no harts left, but I see no real difference. They do their business as usual. Sometimes there is a short flash "XXXX is visiting the herbalist" but it last maybe a second (speed 5X) and I cannot see that their actions are interrupted.

Fourth picture, year 11

This is where I stopped yesterday evening. There has been one old age death. That is quite normal in year 11, so no sign yet, that people live shorter with a bad health.

My sheep have all died!  :'( I don't know what happened. I was a bit puzzled, there were no lamb, and now my both sheep are dead! I suppose the merchant was a crook, sold some old, half dead animals. I hope the same will not happen to my just acquired cows.

I will go on and play now. Maybe I will put all the fish into the trading port as next and see if I can force some to die of starvation.

Offline RedKetchup

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Re: Nilla -Kentworthport, the miserable, sick town
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2015, 02:03:33 PM »
or he sold you 2 males ^^
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Offline assobanana76

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Re: Nilla -Kentworthport, the miserable, sick town
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2015, 12:53:42 AM »
good experiment!
curious for the results.
It is sure that they will be unhappy without vegetables!  ;)

@Nilla small my curiosity ..
this map would be perfect for my next project!
seed? size? type?  ;D
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 01:06:25 AM by assobanana76 »
if you find grammatical errors have to be angry with GoogleTranslate! however, I am studying!! :)

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla -Kentworthport, the miserable, sick town
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2015, 04:09:24 AM »
I will show you some pictures and tell a bit about them

First picture

For you @assobanana76 ; settings and mods. Sorry I should have posted it at the beginning. If was my first random map and I like it. Unless I want something special, i seldom put much effort in choosing a map.

In the background, you may see the start of a small farming center. I finally got some nut seeds.

Second picture

Now the "fun" begins!

Third picture

I was much too careful and scared of the consequences of no food (should have known better after my last experiment) so I let some fisher and hunter work. It took an awful long time to get rid of all food in the houses.

I keep an extra eye on some people ; one with full stars, one with half stars and one with no stars. It might very well be that the unhappy person idles a bit more than the others, but it's hard to say, because other things are more important; These people all live close to the market place and they all idle a lot, if they have nothing to do (runs out of material, reached the production limit..).

One strange thing, is that they do not always look for the closest idling location; the marketplace or the well close to the market (yes I know that wells have a happiness circle but I play with disasters on so I don't dare to build none of them). They may also go to one of the trading ports and stand there, and that takes longer; a longer productivity brake. So idling damages the productivity more than "visiting the herbalist". But as I said; I'm not sure that unhappy people really idle more than happy.

I think I will post the other pictures later. it takes sooo long with many pictures.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla -Kentworthport, the miserable, sick town
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2015, 04:29:41 AM »
More pictures

First pictures

I have heard that unhealthy people have less children. I have looked a bit at it before, but not seen any real difference. Here I show the families with several children. It looks normal to me. There are families with 10 years between first and second child but also some with only 4 and that is how it always looks like.

Second picture

As I said; I was too careful, as I made the starvation. About 15 people of 50 died, but it didn't have much impact on the happiness. A few houses ran out of food and their inhabitants died, probably more or less all. No one in the other houses. And they only get unhappy, if someone of their own family dies. They don't care a damn thing about the neighbors.

Unfortunately some of the older people died of starvation (accidental? probably) and Amelia is the only old person left. She is 88 on this picture. That doesn't indicate that unhealthy people have shorter lives. Not in Banished!

I will make another starvation attempt later, more brutal!  :-[ ;D But first I will test the idea with no clothes.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 04:32:08 AM by Nilla »

Offline assobanana76

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Re: Nilla -Kentworthport, the miserable, sick town
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2015, 04:32:22 AM »
thanks!
if you find grammatical errors have to be angry with GoogleTranslate! however, I am studying!! :)

Offline irrelevant

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Re: Nilla -Kentworthport, the miserable, sick town
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2015, 05:59:47 AM »
@Nilla I think you are enjoying this too much  ;D ;)

Regarding the fact that your guys are going to various idling locations and not just the one nearest them, there are 5 different types of happiness, and each idling location is good for just a single one. I can't remember what the five happiness types are, or which buildings are good for which type; I remember that @RedKetchup has posted this information, most likely someplace in the Mods area.

It is interesting that poor health seems not to affect longevity.

Yes, take away their clothes, and then send the laborers out in the wintertime to clear out some trees, they will really enjoy that! ;)

Offline Pangaea

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Re: Nilla -Kentworthport, the miserable, sick town
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2015, 08:53:28 AM »
Don't recall all of the happiness types either, it's been a long while since I looked at the files (and it didn't work to run the .bat files in Linux - tried yesterday in wine). Think there was Entertainment from Taverns, Religion from Chapels, and possibly Safety from Wells. Then you have Markets, Hospitals, Town Hall and Trade Ports, Cemetery, maybe more too.

Offline xyris

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Re: Nilla -Kentworthport, the miserable, sick town
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2015, 03:38:57 PM »

I will make another starvation attempt later, more brutal!  :-[ ;D But first I will test the idea with no clothes.



Yes, take away their clothes, and then send the laborers out in the wintertime to clear out some trees, they will really enjoy that! ;)


Yes, I'm enjoying this too!  It's not something I would do myself, but the results are sure to be interesting.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla -Kentworthport, the miserable, sick town
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2015, 03:44:33 AM »
There is much to tell from yesterdays playing.

As I said, I started to put all clothes into the trading port. But than this happened:

First picture

HOORAY!!!  ;D :-[

Change of plans! Something else to investigate. About 20 of 70 people died. About the same % as at my starvation attempt. All the animals died as well.  :'( But not a single building was destroyed. What were all the people who died doing out in the forests and at the pastures? Looking for tornadoes?   :-\  ???

Second picture

The happiness went down more than after the starvation, but not more than to 3― stars the most. Obvious more families were stricken by the tornado than by the starvation.

I must confess, that I never really understood how the stars work and I still don't. Look at the picture. (Not at the menus right, I only keep track of all the separated couples after the tornado, look at the center.)

This is the rest of a nomad family. The father was killed by the tornado and the mother took a new young husband. It seems that he also lost someone in his family; no full stars.

When a family member dies, the stars normally are reduced, not all at once, but slowly down to ― star. Than they stay unhappy all their lives. You can see it here and I have seen it before; the younger the faster. Normally they keep this ― star all their lives. But there are exceptions; that's the part I don't understand.

Some people have no stars at all left. Maybe they have lost family members twice. That could be an explanation.

Some people don't lose more than 2-3 stars. Why? I see no difference to those who lose more. A few people even regain stars; Raleight on my picture (the menus in the red frame are cut in, they are 20 years older). The only thing that I have seen to have that effect are graveyards. This town has no graveyards. "Normal" idling doesn't have that effect. Other people idle a lot and the stars still stay away indefinitely.

Any theories?

I can say for sure, that unhappy people idle more than happy people. I followed two fisher for some time (about 1― year, I think). One with full stars, one with no stars at all, all other conditions were the same. The unhappy fisher was idling 5 times, the happy 1. The unhappy made 10 short brakes, visiting the nonexistent herbalist, the happy 11. I estimate that one "idling" takes about 3 times as long as the "visit by the herbalist". So at least under these circumstances; the unhappiness has a larger impact on the productivity, then the poor health.

Third picture

I really like this map. This small trade center at the lake between the mountains with forests right and left looks very nice.

You can see I'm now in that delayed clothing experiment. I can say; clothing has no effect on happiness or health. I'm actually surprised how little effect clothing has at all under normal circumstances. Maybe it would have been different if I had followed @irrelevantīs advice and sent them out to clear a far away forest. But I'm not that mean!  ;D  :P

I made some other very interesting observations during two winters. I looked at three fishers; one with excellent clothing (warm coat), one with fair clothing (wool or hide coat) and one with ragged clothes. The one with excellent clothing never went home to get warm. The fair clothing went home 1 or 2 times each winter. The one without clothes went home 3 times each winter.

Conclusions; In a normal settlement, where people live close to their working places, they can do very well without clothes. There is a small productivity loss during the winter (they start to go home at temperatures of about +3 C). There is about the same productivity loss between wool coats and no coats, as between warm coats and wool coats. It might look different, if the winter is colder or milder, the two winters I looked seemed to be quite normal.

By the way; the school seems to be a cold and drafty place. The teacher with ragged clothes had to get home (upstairs the same building) to get warm during the winter.

Offline RedKetchup

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Re: Nilla -Kentworthport, the miserable, sick town
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2015, 04:41:08 AM »
isnt because alot of people lost a family member to the tornado, and a death is pretty devastating to survivors ?
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