Author Topic: The North - Help...  (Read 3351 times)

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Offline Nilla

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Re: The North - Help...
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2016, 03:41:22 AM »
Sheep on a medium start would be good. In my last game it took very long to get any. As I think, I said in my blog; three times sheep were offered but I had no dalers to buy them. As I finally got some cash, it took a couple of years to get the sheep. I could buy 100 wool, so there was never a problem with clothing, but without these extra wool cotes, there might have been a few without clothing in that game, too.

@Paeng, how are your hunters located? Is there many other things in the hunters area? In the picture of your first settlement, the big hunter (reindeerherder) has many other things in his area. That's not good for the productivity. I guess the small hunters from Kid might be even more vulnerable to disturbances. Otherwise my experiences of them is good, but the hunters have a small tendency to overhunt the reindeer, so I prefere the large one. The first years they kill 10 or more animals, than it gets down to the half in a good located tower but it didn't get lower than that.

To the ports; I must confess, that I felt almost molested by the many merchants in my first Nordic games. After I've realized, that you don't need many ports for the settlement, I'm fine with it. In my last game, I built my second and third port unusually early. Partly, because I did gamble too much and partly, because I had to buy a lot of food. (The second with about 150 and the third with about 300 people.) In your case; with trade only as support, one port will do for a long time. @Tom Sawyer is a master of balancing. With this one port, the balance between coins and goods will be much better, than with your 3 different ports (only one has a 30%(?) chance of getting coins, half as often as in the vanilla version; no wonder that you don't get many) and totally; there will be less disturbing "gongs".  ;D OK; I can agree, that the big vanilla ports are not very good looking. If I can avoid it, I will not build any in my attempt to build a "good" looking town.

Anyhow; I'm glad, that things have turned out well in your town. Looking forwards to see some pictures.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2016, 03:44:15 AM by Nilla »

Offline Paeng

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Re: The North - Help...
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2016, 05:08:21 AM »
A result of your game could be, that we should give the sheep also in a medium start.

Well, I'd say stick to your line for now - my current experiences are most probably not very representative - "damaged" as I am from other mods and a certain way I like to play...  ;)

I guess mostly it's me needing to adjust my attitude - and getting used to your way of balancing...  ;D



how are your hunters located?

By now they are all out in the forest... and yes, I already moved the reindeer herder farther out, so there are not many items in his circle... I changed all my hunters to the Kid version and placed them in a (my) default way - not in a cul-de-sac, near open water, and in a place where I spotted a herd grazing during a season... Now the big herder (1 worker) gives me about 5 furs/year, the 4 hunters each bring in 4 to 10 furs, depending how good their season was.

I will let this sit for a while and check later whether the supply of furs for the tailor is better now - meanwhile I changed to wool coats  :)


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With this one port, the balance between coins and goods will be much better, than with your 3 different ports (only one has a 30%(?) chance of getting coins

Hmmm... That so? I'm terrible at math... well, it would be fine if a General Trader would truely bring dalers 30% of the time - small/new towns can't afford too many of these things anyway...
* I must admit I don't really need the small Builder's Supply port (yet)... mostly I just wave them through. I only built it to be prepared for tight spells on basic stuff...

I'll have to run some more trials to see if it is the number of ports, or if I really just had super bad luck with lousy RNG... remember, in my previous town it was just opposite - plenty dalers but no goods to "buy" them... this time around, plenty of goods to sell but no dalers coming in... LOL
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Offline Paeng

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Re: The North - Help...
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2016, 08:01:39 AM »
Sorry about double post...
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Well, I got my village to survive... even if a lot of things did not go my way yet, and I still have open questions...  ;)

Here are some of my charts -
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5012419/Banished/winfielding/production.png
The North - Help...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5012419/Banished/winfielding/food.png
The North - Help...

Food was a constant problem, with the harvests often hampered by early frost, unreliable traders... but I'm used to that  ;)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5012419/Banished/winfielding/population.png
The North - Help...

As I mentioned earlier, I was a bit at a loss for a while how to continue expanding... so there was quite a spell with stagnating population...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5012419/Banished/winfielding/tools.png
The North - Help...

Tools went okay, though I had times where my limits for mine/bloom/charcoal/iron/tools had me puzzled, one of the components always seemed to be "on hold", preventing a good flow of tools... somehow I'm not yet clear how things are classified (coal, ore, materials etc.? see also below)...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5012419/Banished/winfielding/coins.png
The North - Help...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5012419/Banished/winfielding/firewood.png
The North - Help...

Here you see that I had long spells without any coins arriving... the spikes in firewood correspond with the frenzied buying when coins did come in... LOL

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5012419/Banished/winfielding/clothing.png
The North - Help...

Well, like I said - before sheep and wool, I had a really hard time providing coats - the reindeer furs my hunters got didn't even make a dent in the curve...


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5012419/Banished/winfielding/materials.png
The North - Help...

I'm a bit at a loss what else counts as "materials" - in the end they just piled up and I don't really know where they came from... :-[

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Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: The North - Help...
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2016, 10:57:33 AM »
I would like to answer the open questions. :)

To the statistics. The food chart looks very "nervous".^^ But I think this is the normal up and down in the year with harvest in summer and consumption in winter. But on a low level of stock with critical moments in winter. That is why the chart looks so extrem. The problem is rather the small amount of food, as you said. And basically also the main challenge in this mod. Looking at your professions, I would say more hunting and also fishing would have been good. And of course you had extreme bad luck with the trade. And too bad that the bakery chain has not worked because of a bug.

The clothing chart I do not understand. Actually hunting is very powerful with these big herds of up to 30 animals, active unlimited hunting and warm coats from the beginning. But I think it needs another play style than in vanilla and probably in CC. More active. Maybe you were too careful with the reindeer population. I have removed this warning because it could be a false signal.

The last chart could be increased by wool. It has a relation to your sheep boost.

To the flagging. Ore, coal and charcoal are in the same flag as raw materials stored on piles (technically Iron). The further processed or valuable materials of bloom, iron and steel as well as wool, leather and hides are flagged as raw materials stored in barns (technically CoalFuel). The Textile flag is used and reserved for money. Clay and bricks are flagged as Stone. Coal is also Fuel and can be used in houses without any conflicts because charcoal is used for iron processing. Salt is also a valuable material and the new bakers seem to be too new to have a knowledge about this flag and could not store it in their bakery..^^

Offline Paeng

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Re: The North - Help...
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2016, 12:28:27 PM »
Looking at your professions, I would say more hunting and also fishing would have been good.

Yeah, I was definitely too careful about hunting (though being stingy with natural resources has always been my game)...
Fishing was to the max - good spots were rare on this map, since I chose a map without lakes on purpose... okay, I could have changed Kid's 2-man posts to default 4-man posts, but I find those too large (visually)...
I hope that more processing will come to the fishing industry  ;)


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The last chart could be increased by wool. It has a relation to your sheep boost.

Thought so, too - the curve has the same characteristics...


Quote
To the flagging.

Phew... no wonder my old head has a hard time wrapping around this  :o
I can find my stuff across barns and piles, but I got confused often by the way limits were displayed, and had to go trial'n'error to find out which I need to raise...  =:-]

Clay and bricks flagged as Stone makes sense, of course - I did run out of stone several times because the spinner said I got plenty, but then they were all brick and tiles... usually I caught up quickly though when my builders would not perform.


Anyway, all just a matter of getting used to (I hope  ;) )

And thanks for the clarifications :)
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Offline Nilla

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Re: The North - Help...
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2016, 03:36:25 AM »
I was a bit confused and disturbed about these limits too at the beginning and muss confess; after all my Nordic games, I don't yet really know how everything is "labled. Now I don't care. I always have the inventory from the townhall open, to look on the materials I have anyway.

It's the same in my present game with the Mega Mod (CC). Dry goods; a lot of things, same as materials, fuel and........ You have to keep an eye on your inventory. Partly it's harder in this game, because there are so many different things in the inventory, but it's also partly easier, because the gameplay is easier and it's not that critical, if you're running low on specific materials. (OK, if you're running out of a special building material, you have to stop building what you planned. Irritating, but you will not starve or run out of something else crucial, if you have to wait)

One thing to fishing: Did you have any trout fisher? I didn't see any on your screenshots, but they are hard to spot. They could be put everywhere; on small streams, at the beginning and end of the river. They only need a small water area for themself. They produce a little less than a good fisher but still good enough.

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: The North - Help...
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2016, 04:53:01 AM »
I try to make better labels. Not nice if it is confusing.

Offline Nilla

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Re: The North - Help...
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2016, 05:06:56 AM »
I really don't care so much anymore. Besides; I think it's impossible to make it like the vanilla game, where each "category" is just a few, often just one material. As soon as you introduce something new, it has to be put somewhere and it will always be somehow confusing, if you only look at the small menu.

Offline Paeng

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Re: The North - Help...
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2016, 11:38:57 AM »
I was a bit confused and disturbed about these limits too at the beginning

Yeah, I guess that's quite normal... anyway, I'm glad I'm not all alone...  8)

Quote
One thing to fishing: Did you have any trout fisher?

I must admit that I blissfully ignored them - my game is always centered on fishing, and I daresay very successfully... I can squeeze the max out of my fishing... small spots with very low output don't appeal to me, I go after the 3K+ spots... but thanks for the hint, I will try them out in my next play...  :)


I try to make better labels. Not nice if it is confusing.

Well, your labels and especially your mouse-hints are pretty good and informative already... my main confusion (not only in the North, but in all mods that mix up the flags differently) is over the limits... would it be possible to extend the string "Limit" (in the spinners) to show what it belongs to? e.g. "Limit: Stone, Coal, Ore", or so... so when I open an item - a mine, a bloom, or whatever, I can see right away which limit is attached to this item...

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Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: The North - Help...
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2016, 01:01:40 PM »
I have revised the flags and limits so they are more understandable. All buildings get meaningful limit labels such as "Ore Limit". There will be the following classification. Not new but more tidy.

Wood: logs, timber(?)
Stone: stone, clay, bricks and tiles
Ore (tech. Iron): iron ore, copper ore, silver ore, stored on piles
Fuel: firewood and coal, stored on piles
Material (tech. CoalFuel): stored in barns
Food
Herbs
Clothes
Tools
Drinks (tech. Alcohol): stored in taverns
Coins (tech. Textile)

A few changes were necessary. Charcoal is now only a material, not ore and not fuel. The charcoaler follows the material limit and the charcoal will be stored in barns. No way to keep it on piles without confusions. But I think it's not a problem. It has to be stored next to a blacksmith together with bloom and iron (in a barn). The brewery follows the material limit to produce "not auto consumed" alcohol and the tavern follows the "drink limit" to control the consumption of alcohol. Material is of course a collection category for all new resources without a specific game function and it is not possible to control anything specifically but now it feels better in game without confusions about the limits. And it is close to vanilla and CC.

Offline Nilla

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Re: The North - Help...
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2016, 03:54:33 AM »
Most of it sounds good to me.

I'm a bit sad about the charcoal. I think it's more convenient to store it on stockpiles. OK, you need it together with other things stored in barns, but first; you need a lot of it, second; it's a possible export material and third: I like these small neat boxes with the black content.

As it is now, I find, textiles would be much more valuable to have a separate limit than coins. The limit for coins is totally unimportant. You need coins only to trade. If you use the trade in the most efficient way; you "buy" as much coins you can and get rid of them as fast as possible. You will never really store any, and certainly not reach any limits. Of cause, this could change, if you plan to make a coin production. But honestly, I'm not a fan of coin production. It was never produced by anyone else but the "state" (unless you go back to medieval times or earlier, but in that case, we need other houses). It's really not necessary to produce everything.

To valuable metals; copper and silver are historically produced. But the question is; to what use in Banished? I guess, it would mainly be a export good. I'm not sure, I like products, that are only meant for export. Back to coin production? Rather not. Copper could be a building material; a nice church could have a copper roof, an extra efficient brewery or distillery, could have copper equipment and of cause as byproduct; the red color. :)


Offline Paeng

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Re: The North - Help...
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2016, 04:42:38 AM »
I have revised the flags and limits so they are more understandable.

Sounds good... true, I also liked the charcoal crates, but hey... in my latest town I prefer the big warehouses anyway, that's a lot tidier than stockpiles.  :)

Copper on the horizon - I like it, I was wondering what new chains around the Falu Rödfärg would pop up...  ;)


I'm a bit with Nilla on the coins - do they really need a whole flag on their own? What I like about them is their light weight, they seem to free a lot of cap in the ports, but as Nilla said you only need/use them in the ports anyway... (?)
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Offline Abandoned

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Re: The North - Help...
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2016, 06:34:28 AM »
I have not gotten to the north yet but have been following posst and I too liked the looks of the charcoal crates on the stockpile.  Could they not be stored in both places?  Is there a specialized stockpile for charcoal? 

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: The North - Help...
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2016, 10:30:23 AM »
Good thoughts here! And that's the bullshit with these flags. A few blank flags, lets say flag0 - 9 would solve a lot of problems.

So charcoal can not have its own flag. It can not be fuel because it would be consumed by citizens. And the combination of coal, charcoal and ores was a reason for confusion with limits. Now coal is explicit fuel to heat houses and coal mining follows the fuel limit. Charcoal is explicit material to process iron and follows the material limit. Nothing is mixed in divers flags and limits or counted in more than one number. Mining will not stop because of charcoal and so on.

A possibility to keep it on piles would be a specialized storage yard for materials. There would be all materials (others in closed crates or so) but in a forest next to a charcoal burner it would be used only for this material. Then you have the choice to build a shed or a small storage yard for charcoal and the vendors would pick up it there to provide it in a warehouse where it is mostly stored as Paeng said. Would be just an option and if placed advisedly not a reason for confusion about storage locations.

A reserved money flag is necessary for trade. The coin limit is not needed without a production building as you said, it's just in game. And I'm also not a fan of coin production. Would be counterfeiting.^^ But a textile limit also makes no sense because what building should follow this limit? Pastures, hunters and farmers (flax) are following the food limit. A side effect of using the textile flag for money is that no warning of "low stock" appears if coins are carried back from barns to trading posts. At least I have not noticed this since it has been changed.

My ideas to new metals are: Silver from mining and gold from rivers as valuable export goods of course and maybe as special equipment for a church or further processed by a goldsmith. Copper also as a special building material for roofing of endgame buildings or (good idea) for a distillery. And yes, we are getting closer to the Falu Rödfärg chain. We already have rye flour and linseed oil and the third ingredient will be tailings from copper mining. Will be fun to make this Nordic original.

The big question is: If we have falu red, should it be needed to build the red houses? Actually yes but as far as I know buildings can only require 3 materials. Not good and it would mean to make bundles of building materials by a builders yard or something like that. CC makes it in a similar way, or? Complicated and not really nice. But step by step. Next will be the mill to make rye flour. :)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 10:40:10 AM by Tom Sawyer »

Offline kid1293

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Re: The North - Help...
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2016, 11:00:16 AM »
One way is to build a temporary house (for starters) and upgrade it with
whatever is nescessary (falu paint). You can use 3 more materials when upgrading.