Author Topic: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman  (Read 1962 times)

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Offline Nilla

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Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
« on: January 10, 2017, 05:10:52 AM »
Our friend @Tom Sawyer has again figured out some new difficulties. Of cause, I had to test it! But why call it ironman? Why not ironwoman?  >:( ;D

I have a "new" computer and I have installed Banished new. I forgot, that you have to set the options of making screenshots with the F buttons. So I have no screenshots from the game I played yesterday. Unfortunately I also made no saves. I guess I played it too fast. It's my problem playing in "real time": Too little happens, if I don't speed the game up. Normally I find a "real time" game boring at the beginning. This game is not boring. You have to micromanage a lot to survive, so there are things to do all the time.

What can I say about "ironman"? The start isn't much different from the old "impossible" now "survivor": They have nothing, so freezing is more critical than starving. A house is needed fast, after that a barn and some food with the "instant hunting and gathering", then go for tool production, after that clothes. All children from the start were quite small, so the school could wait. In this settlement everyone will be educated.

The problem now at the beginning is, that few adults have to support a lot of children and students. The houses are all full. If you look at the graphs, I've cut into the last picture, you may see the the problems. It's quite obvious, that the most important thing in this game is a slow growth. It's not possible to support much more children than adults in a harsh climate. If you have such a food graph, some things must change, if you want to survive. I'm quite confident, that this settlement will survive for now, despite this graph. Why? The first student has just graduated and soon the second one will and next year another one. It will make a big difference. (8 productive - 12 unproductive to 11 productive - 9 unproductive) The young people will have to live at their parents for some more years. Their mothers are still young enough to get more children and I can certainly not need another 3 new babies until the stores have recovered.

If you look at the citizens graph, you can see, that I never could produce enough clothes. I hunt every reindeer close to the settlement, still it wasn't enough. This will improve now as well; I was lucky to get some sheep.

I micromanage a lot. Now it's spring. More or less everyone have to go out in the forest to pick wild food. Everything else is made in winter.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 04:00:44 AM by Nilla »

Offline Abandoned

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Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2017, 05:35:40 AM »
 :)  Wise Nordic Ironwoman is off to a good start.  Good luck with new town.

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2017, 02:48:07 PM »
Quote from: Nilla
But why call it ironman? Why not ironwoman?  >:( ;D

Ok, then at least a woman is the first one who survived on Ironman. ;D

... as far as we know. Would be interesting to see more trials and strategies in this mode. Anyway, my respect to each player who managed these conditions!

Yes, the start is similar to "Survivor" and you already know what to do. But I think here you are not "out of the woods" after a survived start. The +20% required food can hit your settlement in bad years and a one-way protein strategy will probably run into sickness. I'm also interested in your clothing economy and if 2 years per coat is a good (hard) balance. I'm curious about the next years. :)

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2017, 04:49:31 AM »
But I think here you are not "out of the woods" after a survived start.

 ;D I'm sure you're right! As I said right at the beginning; the biggest challenge for me will be to let the settlement grow slow. The big problem is not, that they need more and better balanced food or more coats; it's not worse, than to play with uneducated. The big problem is the combination with the real time gameplay. I know how much harder it is to control the population growth. I don't think, I dare to build many of the red houses with 4 children. It will probably let the game run out of control.

The main strategy is: not more children and student than adults. As long as I can keep this, I think it will work. The best way, I don't know yet. Much farming? Much trade? We will see.

First picture

As I thought, the food situation got under control, when I got 2 more laborers and the number of adults became the same as the number of children/student. If you look at the profession menu, you can see that there are many laborers. They all collect wild food in the forest. Only if a flock of reindeer shows up close to the settlement, I let 1 or 2 of them hunt. I could buy some seed potatoes. I'm not sure, how much I will farm later in this game.

I could also buy some rye, that I kept in the trading port, until the mill was built and all wild food for that year was collected. Grain is valuable, so I like to increase the amount.

Second picture

Here some of the winter occupations are shown. Thar's enough tools, so there will be no blacksmith this year, but as soon as the trading port is filled or enough clothes or firewood for this year is produced, I will start to make iron bloom for next year and also let the herbalist cure some people........ There's never time to produce much in advance.

Third picture

The first young couple could finally move out. You can also see that the sheep solved the clothing problem. The higher damand for clothes will bring problems, but only if you have no sheep. I don't think you can hunt so much, that you can make reindeer coats for everyone for a long time. I was lucky to be able to buy some early.

No one was sick so far. They had a bad diet at the beginning. You can see, that the health was below 50%. Now they have a good diet and also enough herbs. It's interesting, to connect the probability to get a decease to the general health. We will see, if I make any observations of how it works.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2017, 01:39:26 AM »
I said, I would try to develop this settlement slow. And sure, the game helps me! Helps me a lot!  >:( There are 6 young adults living at their parents (young and young, some are in their 30s) all male! I can't really estimate the consequences for the game. I only know one thing; building no houses for a long time is not good. I'm in year 36. I think I built the last one around year 20. Most students are female, but it will take another year or so until the first graduate.

In all other aspects, the game runs good. I have bought some barely seeds. It looks like you've changed them a bit @Tom Sawyer. Now apples, potatoes and barely grows on harsh and give about the same average harvest (between 15% and 70% depending on the temperature). I find it good that way; it make some sense to farm, but it's not very profitable. If you have enough storage, the cold summers are no problem. This will be a very good year! 16 C in June is very rare. It's more often less than 10!

I still run the game a lot on 10x and 5X speed, only slowing it down (sometimes even stop it) if a merchant arrives in the time, as the season changes and I change the occupation of the people or when the harvest soon is to be started. Of cause, if you play on harsh, you have to start it manually around 1 August. Sometimes, if it's very cold or very warm I start harvesting in late July. It has happened, that I forgot to start it in time and that's not good at all.



Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2017, 04:54:50 AM »
Your stock of food looks good @Nilla. I thought there will be more problems to manage the ironman mode. Probably it is your experience and great (micro)management. But if you continue to play so defensively, you may come into a crisis by aging of the population, as you describe. Will you take some nomads? Would be an interesting decision. Stagnation because of aging or risky growth by uneducated nomads. :)

Barley is not changed but potato and apple got a small nerf. It was too boring just to grow potatoes and apples. Current values as always in the Wiki.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2017, 02:51:17 AM »
I have bin thinking about nomads but I have decided not to take any. If it wasn't the first time, I played this option, I maybe would have taken some to speed things up. But since I don't really know yet, how these changes work, when everyone is educated, I will endure this slow game a few more years. Otherwise you'll not know, if it's the nomads or the mod, that cause potential problems.

I'm not playing defensive, the game forces this. I was defensive right at the beginning, but I think, that every girl, that was born in Firestelluride, got a house within a year, after she was graduated from school. Even some schoolgirls occasionally moves out. One just moved to a single young male, who inherited a house from one of the initial settlers and lived there alone for some time. There's still more males than females.

Anyhow the number of children grows again and I hope it will now be better. I've built 3 trading ports. I don't really need 3 of them. It's more because I have a lot of sellable goods and not much for my farmers to do in the long winter, than to build a trading port and carry stuff into it.

Again I've cut in some graphs into the first picture.

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2017, 05:54:00 AM »
That's true. It forces slow growth. And slow playing for micromanagement, at least sometimes as you said. Can you evaluate if they really consume 120 food? The ironman start condition uses another citizen.rsc and I'm not 100% sure if they reproduce them self.

Another issue is, if nomads will consume 120 food. I found a reference to vanilla citizen.rsc in the nomad.rsc. I don't know how it is connected. But if nomads will be citizens and not "ironmen" it would not make sense to realize it in this way via start condition. So it is good you still have a full-blooded population. I will make a test with nomads too.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2017, 03:52:21 AM »
About food: It's hard to say, how much they really need. They do need more than usual and if I make a quick estimation, 120 could be right. Look at the picture.

Last year about 49 inhabitants consumed 8079 food. The mill used about 1400 -> 6700 left and that's more than 120 each. The problem is, what you put in the trading ports counts as well. I sell food, mainly venison and I try to transport as much as possible into the ports. If we guess that 90% of the 1000 venison, that I produced last year disappears into the ports, the rest 5900 food is consumed from 49 inhabitants -> 120 each.

Maybe it's not so bad, if nomads would need the "normal" amount of food, it will take away a part of the uneducated penalty. Taking nomads, while playing "real time" is always problematic, since they live so long and influence the productivity for a very long time and a game without early nomads is very slow.

I don't know yet, how hard  "ironman" really is. The circumstances have made this game unusually slow and as you can see; it's quite easy to increase the stores. I don't know what will happen, when the population grows in a more "normal" way. I will try to expand as fast as possible the next years by building  houses for every new couple, as long as I dare.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2017, 03:54:56 AM »
I played again yesterday. The years went by. I'm in year 65. The population now grows quite fast. I can still increase the stores. In fact, I start to get problems not having enough barns for everything.  :-\ But I guess that things will now start to change as the number of "unproductive" are closing in on the "productive". You can see in the cut in graphs, that I now produce less than I consume. The production numbers are from early 65 not 64 as the other pictures and year 64 brought a good harvest. I have always bought wheat and rye to process in the mill and I've also started to buy vegetables. Now I only grow (the more expensive) barley and no potatoes. Maybe I will grow some later when the population gets bigger, I don't know yet.

I have a small request for you @Tom Sawyer; a few more lines on the menu of the mill. It can produce more than 2 different things and as you can see on my first picture, sometimes some other things are shown as well. It's always good to see everything that's produced.

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2017, 02:04:46 PM »
Haha. Your food graph is not stoppable. And health is 5/5. You definitely have beaten the ironman mode! ;D

A solution for the storage problems could be to build a stock of money instead of more barns. A big stock of food feels better but I find it an interesting option in our gameplay. And the mill will get the long production list.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2017, 05:01:54 AM »
To store coins...... hm...... I think I'm too stingy for that.  :-[ I want to get as much as possible out of my merchandise and use the few coins the merchants bring! Now! Not later! But honestly, I guess, it would be a good way to store things. I'm sure I wouldn't go broke, if I barter traded more.

If the first obstacle for this is to beat my hoarding disire, the second (real) obstacle would be the limited space in the trading ports. You will need more goods in the port, if you barter trade, as well as trade for coins to store. If I try this, I think the new bigger port from @kid1293 would be very valuable. I find the limited space in the ports is more annoying, when you're playing the North, than in a vanilla gameplay. Here I like to sell more heavy stuff like logs, wool, hides, charcoal, tools and clothing. One alternative thing to a bigger port, could be to change the weight of things. I can understand that logs are heavy and spacial, but tools and clothing? Don't need much space to store a coat or a hammer!

I'll post some pictures.

First picture

The food store doesn't grow that much anymore. There's one unusual thing in this game, compared to all other Nordic games I've played. I have too much logs! It never happened before. I sell some but as I said; the space in the port is limited. I produce some firewood but the gatherers are also very diligent collecting a lot in the woods. I produce some charcoal to sell, but the tool production is still low. Iron is the limit. I don't have many people to spare for mining. Sometimes I send the farmers to mine in the winter but there are also other winter works, that have to be done. So I don't use much logs. I've also cleared some land lately, mainly to make space for more sheep but also some fields and orchards.

Second picture

Again I've cut in some graphs. You can see that half my food store is fish and mutton. But everyone lives in the circle of a "lanthandel" and there are plenty of all kind of food (and herbs) so yes, they are healthy. The doctor haven't had to work once!

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2017, 05:07:43 AM »
Quote from: Nilla
To store coins...... hm...... I think I'm too stingy for that.  :-[ I want to get as much as possible out of my merchandise and use the few coins the merchants bring! Now! Not later! But honestly, I guess, it would be a good way to store things. I'm sure I wouldn't go broke, if I barter traded more.

Hm, barter trading is not really my intention if I suggest to stock money for efficient storage. It seems the cash flow is the problem. We made a balance of import/export. You give the money away in the same amount as you can get it from export merchants. Even with your 3 ports it seems to be not enough. Actually not bad but not a good way to save a lot of money. More coins from export merchants would help.

Quote from: Nilla
I think the new bigger port from @kid1293 would be very valuable. I find the limited space in the ports is more annoying, when you're playing the North, than in a vanilla gameplay. Here I like to sell more heavy stuff like logs, wool, hides, charcoal, tools and clothing. One alternative thing to a bigger port, could be to change the weight of things. I can understand that logs are heavy and spacial, but tools and clothing? Don't need much space to store a coat or a hammer!

The required space of tools, clothing, textiles, iron and other materials is already reduced in the North. From 10 to 5 in most cases. The basic rule is: food 1, materials 5, stone/bricks 10 and logs 15. Coins also 1 of course. A big port with high capacity is convenient for trading. Maybe more than many small docks and we can adapt Kids port to make it work in the North. And I think it should be logical in comparison to other storage buildings. Maybe not only paid by land use but also with building costs for big storage. Like an industrial port as advanced building for midgame with typical brick architecture like in some ports of Hanseatic cities.

Quote from: Nilla
There's one unusual thing in this game, compared to all other Nordic games I've played. I have too much logs! It never happened before.

I guess your surplus of logs is a result of slow growth. In the North logs are building material and not so relevant for firewood. So slower growth means less required wood.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 05:12:42 AM by Tom Sawyer »

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2017, 05:52:36 AM »
Yes, if you want to store coins, the merchants have to bring more of it. But I like it the way it is. As it is now, you really have to make a choice. If you want to buy something and you have no/not enough coins, you have to make the choice; a safe, less profitable barter trade or gamble and wait. It makes the gameplay more interesting.

I tested a little bit to barter trade and save the coins, but at least now in this game, I really don't like it. It takes away one of the advantages with the coins; the fact that you need less traders in the port. As I used goods to buy both food and coins, the single trader wasn't able to fill the port fast enough and I have no laborers to spare, to increase the number.

I would also like some Nordic ports.

We have discussed the warehouse before. It does work better now, than it did, but still it's not perfect. I'm not so fond of the combination textile/metal. Look at the picture. I have a lot of wool in my stores, but the lazy vendor prefers to fill it with closer charcoal and steel, than to walk a bit further and get wool. I have also noticed, that iron ore isn't stored in the warehouse. As it is now, it's no problem; the mine is close. But what is when it has run empty? OK; a smelter is cheap to move close to the new mine and the vendor could pick up the bloom and carry it close to the blacksmiths. I have built a second mine and smelter to test this. But as far as I can see; it's the same as wool; it's too far away for the lazy vendor. He prefers to pick up 3 steel from the close barn, than to go to the other side of the village, to get 100 bloom. Is it possible to set a limit for each product?

I have another request about the mill. Could the footprint be changed, to get a possible to build a road to the bridge? People use that bridge, so it would be nice to build a road to connect it.

The game goes on the same way. Now the population grows, so it makes a little bit more fun, but honestly; real time is not my game. It was alright to start with 50 people but like this? No, nothing for me.

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2017, 03:39:25 AM »
Quote from: Nilla
We have discussed the warehouse before. It does work better now, than it did, but still it's not perfect. I'm not so fond of the combination textile/metal. ... Is it possible to set a limit for each product?

Yes, it is not perfect. And it will never be if we don't get new flags. We cannot define a limit for resources, only for categories of resources (flags). We can store ores in the warehouse too if we want. My first thought was to let it process near the mines and not waste space in the warehouse by reserving it for heavy ores. I found some nice photos of old Swedish smelteries. Maybe I will make one, if back with creating models. Then it could make sense to have something like a managed storage building for ore. Full control of the stored resources is only possible by the trading post function. But there the resources cannot be used by workers. It needs a manual step to release the resources to the next storage building. CC has such a distribution building.

Quote from: Nilla
I have another request about the mill. Could the footprint be changed, to get a possible to build a road to the bridge? People use that bridge, so it would be nice to build a road to connect it.

I tried it when making the mill but found no way. The tiles on the slopes can not be used to build a road, also not after flatting it by the quarry function. At least not in the building. Maybe there is a trick and another modder can give an advice.

Quote from: Nilla
The game goes on the same way. Now the population grows, so it makes a little bit more fun, but honestly; real time is not my game. It was alright to start with 50 people but like this? No, nothing for me.

I think realtime needs nomads in early game. In an interesting and balanced way. Or our start condition with 40 or 50 people. When looking at your pop chart the game gets dynamic after you reached these inhabitants.

Anyway the ironman mode as starting condition is a fail. Nomads are not "ironman". They age in high speed and ignore all other properties too. Probably no way to realize a difficulty level in this way. As a separate mod it would work of course.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 03:51:42 AM by Tom Sawyer »