Author Topic: Lumbers  (Read 1590 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online RedKetchup

  • Champion
  • Banished Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 9469
  • Country: ca
Lumbers
« on: December 30, 2017, 02:06:40 PM »
I want to start a discussion on logs versus lumber.

since begining of this game, i always found very odd to see buildings requiring logs while you look at those and they look using "lumber" :(

and since i implemented my first lumbermill in Forest Center ... and i "include" Forest Center in my new RK EditorChoice mod....
with time i wished alot to implement lumber and make it integral part of the game. and make it as a requirement for buildings.

of course it is adding a new "layer" to the game. I know some people just want to have the less layers as possible... but there is also some people find this game too easy and wish more difficulties.
or more complicated.

i would like to make it so all the buildings require lumber instead of logs. of course i would need to add a little "sawpit" (like in CC that makes 60 lumber per year), something very very slow that can help you start your town till you build the "real" Lumbermill (which also would need lumbers to be built, which also would fully operate at higher and faster level)

since there are tons of mods made already they use logs as requirement and asking to modify everything is not an option (and all modders wont neither like that idea i am promoting today....) ^^
so i kinda have an idea to trick everything up ^^

i am wondering if : i take the log resource and change its name and its icon to lumber... people would see logs as lumber now ^^
and i would make trees drop a very new "newlogs" resource that would look like the old logs and named like the old logs. and you would go cut trees and get "newlogs" wood resource.

and people would need to take that "newlogs" resource (named Wood at your screen) and process it to get lumber :)
and all the other mods made (from me or from others) would require "lumber" to be build without changing anything from other mods  :D


i am thinking about this since very long time. i want lumber be very important to the game, i just not sure "how to" implement it , and up to "how far" it should be integrated in the game.
i wish to have people tell what they think about all that ?

screenshot: The screenshot is there for being look at it and make people realize that those building are made from lumber, even the barn is made with lumber !! not with logs.
> > > Support Mods Creation developments with Paypal Donations < < <
Click here to PayPal Donate.

Online elemental

  • Architect
  • *****
  • Posts: 635
  • Country: au
Re: Lumbers
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2017, 02:26:03 PM »
I like realism and I like mods that add new layers and make the game harder. This is because I play Banished as a town builder and not as a survival game.

You can certainly add lumber to your mods if you want to but it's probably best that you don't change how other mods work. Things like log cabins should still use logs and not lumber.

Online RedKetchup

  • Champion
  • Banished Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 9469
  • Country: ca
Re: Lumbers
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2017, 02:28:28 PM »
You can certainly add lumber to your mods if you want to but it's probably best that you don't change how other mods work. Things like log cabins should still use logs and not lumber.

yeah but there is a hundreds buildings that "look like lumber" for every "logs looking" building


if i make it only my mod will require lumber... people will add a tons of other mods that require logs and will only use the logs ones and never build my lumber looking buildings :P
so this is why i thought about the little tricky trick  to fool everyone out ^^

and i agree , i am one of the people who think the game needs to be harder ^^
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 02:32:07 PM by RedKetchup »
> > > Support Mods Creation developments with Paypal Donations < < <
Click here to PayPal Donate.

Offline The Pilgrim

  • Global Moderator
  • Trader
  • *****
  • Posts: 183
  • Country: us
Re: Lumbers
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2017, 02:52:19 PM »
I think you are adding an extra modding step that is unnecessary.  If you look at the vanilla houses, it is rough hewn lumber that appear to makeup the structure as opposed to regular lumber, which has a more finished look. On small rough buildings like that it would be understood that part of the build cost is hewing the logs not just assembly. I think larger, more refined structures should require finished lumber. I also think there should be a small, low output way to make lumber, similar to CCs sawpit.

Offline kid1293

  • Modders
  • Banished Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 2710
  • Country: se
  • Never confuse movement with progress
Re: Lumbers
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2017, 02:58:45 PM »
For starters - If you do this trick, every firewood chopper has to be changed too.
Or else they will need lumber to make firewood.

There is a benefits from using lumber but many mods introduce their own style.
All those mods would have to be updated with a lumber mill to process newlogs
to lumber using their own building style.

Will lumber be under wood flag? Or will it be under construction material?
It is already crowded in that flag.

Take care! There are probably many 'hidden' problems.

Kid

Online elemental

  • Architect
  • *****
  • Posts: 635
  • Country: au
Re: Lumbers
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2017, 03:04:42 PM »

if i make it only my mod will require lumber... people will add a tons of other mods that require logs and will only use the logs ones and never build my lumber looking buildings


I don't know how everyone else plays but I choose buildings based on how they look, not based on whether they are made from stone instead of bricks or or logs instead of lumber. If I like how it looks, I'll build it.  :)  Developing the industry to make the necessary building materials (like glass or furniture or whatever) is part of the fun for me.


Online elemental

  • Architect
  • *****
  • Posts: 635
  • Country: au
Re: Lumbers
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2017, 03:12:30 PM »
Very good points from @kid1293. I never even thought about firewood.

Offline Discrepancy

  • Modders
  • Architect
  • *****
  • Posts: 913
  • Country: au
Re: Lumbers
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2017, 03:25:51 PM »
On my own use of Lumber in my mods, I plan on adding a patch mod to change many of the building costs to incorporate it, that way players get the choice of wanting more of a challenge. I am veering away from utilizing it in everything and every mod and only incorporating it in more advanced buildings (Stone Bridge / Industry Mining).

Online RedKetchup

  • Champion
  • Banished Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 9469
  • Country: ca
Re: Lumbers
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2017, 03:37:06 PM »
I think you are adding an extra modding step that is unnecessary.  If you look at the vanilla houses, it is rough hewn lumber that appear to makeup the structure as opposed to regular lumber, which has a more finished look. On small rough buildings like that it would be understood that part of the build cost is hewing the logs not just assembly. I think larger, more refined structures should require finished lumber. I also think there should be a small, low output way to make lumber, similar to CCs sawpit.

yes it is an extra modding step, but "unnecessary" is subjective. some will think it is not good, some think this is a must, some thinks should be an obligation. everything is relative from personal preferences.
yes vanilla house seems to be made from "rough hewn lumber" but it is still a "kind" of lumber. rather manually made from a sawpit as opposed to regular lumber made with the help of water/wind/animals.
yeah i would include a very slow CC sawpit.


For starters - If you do this trick, every firewood chopper has to be changed too.
Or else they will need lumber to make firewood.

There is a benefits from using lumber but many mods introduce their own style.
All those mods would have to be updated with a lumber mill to process newlogs
to lumber using their own building style.

Will lumber be under wood flag? Or will it be under construction material?
It is already crowded in that flag.

Take care! There are probably many 'hidden' problems.

Kid

yeah with this trick , woodchopper would make firewood from lumbers and would need some edit to make them work from "newlogs" resource.
all those mods wouldnt need changes though (i mean everything else from woodcutter) since they will still use "logs" renamed at our screen as "Lumber". but trees wouldnt drop logs anymore but the new logs which would need to be processed to old logs(named lumber at screen)

to have less problem, i would need to keep lumber in the same flag as logs (as newlogs too) because all the building which need 1 log to process and create something has already the wood flag. i dont want people edit their mods to make them able to "store" a new flag : contruction material. They would automatically need 1 lumber to create their thing instead of 1 log( at the screen).

Quote: "Take care! There are probably many 'hidden' problems." yeah this is the reason i want to start a thread on this. so we can see all the pros and cons. and take a decision of what to do and how to do it :)


I don't know how everyone else plays but I choose buildings based on how they look, not based on whether they are made from stone instead of bricks or or logs instead of lumber. If I like how it looks, I'll build it.  :)  Developing the industry to make the necessary building materials (like glass or furniture or whatever) is part of the fun for me.


did you happended to have build a single new NMT 3.0 multi level house that need "glass" ? how many people did that ? i mean lately. probably some did when i launched the mod and tested it ... but still doing it ?
when it is too complicated, people put the mod in the recycled bin !!
this is one of the "cons" to have extra building mats required.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 03:41:49 PM by RedKetchup »
> > > Support Mods Creation developments with Paypal Donations < < <
Click here to PayPal Donate.

Online RedKetchup

  • Champion
  • Banished Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 9469
  • Country: ca
Re: Lumbers
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2017, 03:55:47 PM »
about the idea of "lumber for more advanced buildings"

what is a "more advanced" if i make the woodhouse use logs (and keep logs as it is) ??
just multi level ? like i said, how many will preferably build multi level?

why not all the other buildings like gatherer/forester/hunter/herbalist/barns and of course evident "advanced" townhall/hospital/ etc etc etc ??
> > > Support Mods Creation developments with Paypal Donations < < <
Click here to PayPal Donate.

Online elemental

  • Architect
  • *****
  • Posts: 635
  • Country: au
Re: Lumbers
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2017, 05:02:33 PM »
It's up to you as a modder to decide what an advanced building is. It's not just about building costs though - it's also about advantages/benefits. What benefits does a building offer and what is a reasonable cost to build that building and gain those benefits? If the players agree with you they will happily build your building.

Just a few different types of benefits:

- improved efficiency (houses that are warmer/use less firewood, for example)
- increased output or more workers
- increased storage space
- increased capacity (schools, hospitals, etc)
- increased coverage (bigger radius)
- new production chains and trade options
- aesthetics (how something looks)
- realism (not everyone cares about this though)

Some of those things will be more appealing than others, depending on how each player plays the game. Some players aim for maximum population. Others like to tell a story with their towns so upgrading to a bigger, better church might be important to them even if they don't really need it. I like realism but some players will see more realism as a bad thing.

Your multi-storey buildings offer the advantage of fitting more population into a smaller area which helps improve town efficiency. That can be a huge benefit. If you want to think about other types of benefits for housing, in CC advanced houses have more storage space, are warmer, and allow bigger families.

Online brads3

  • Banished Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 2598
  • Country: us
Re: Lumbers
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2017, 05:38:59 PM »
interesting discussion. i agree with KID that changing logs or lumber terminology can cause many problems. there are several mods that use lumber now.

        have you considered changing the work time requirement to the base vanilla buildings?? longer work time to reflect the added work involved to trim and hew the logs. then a building that uses lumber could be built in less time since the logs are already cut square.changing the work time to build also slows the game down. we won't be able to build ahead so fast. when nomads arrive players will have to decide to build a building with logs that takes longer or 1 with lumber that is quicker and then they have time to build the workplace for them too.the player has both options and can weigh the costs or advantages of both.

        the arguement to use lumber or not is similar to the 1 of adding more items to the game. some players will and want to and many don't want the long inventory. we disagree since we all play differently.i don't mind lumber added. the issue i have at times with CC building chains is more so the building supplies. it was a way to use more materials and items before the 1.07 upgrade. some buildings i wanted to make early needed building supplies.at the start,you don't have enough workers to even try to create the chain to build them.the amount of items and work time to make just 1 building supply is huge. between that and the 6 page inventory list is why many chose not to play CC. the lumber by itself i don't think was a big issue.

Offline Discrepancy

  • Modders
  • Architect
  • *****
  • Posts: 913
  • Country: au
Re: Lumbers
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2017, 05:51:03 PM »
exactly as @elemental has said is also my own view on what an Advanced building is.
Larger occupancy, more efficient homes in smaller footprints.
Buildings that wouldn't be built straight away to create a progression in the town. (townhalls, markets, hospitals, etc)


Overall I like the idea of adding Lumber, but changing the RawMaterialWood to be Lumber will create some confusion with other mods in construction, production and also tooltips. It will look a bit funny to have a cost of Lumber to build a log tent/shelter or similar.
When I started modding I was cautioned against altering vanilla RawMaterial files to be something else, as it could mean that less people might use the mod as it does not align well with many other mods and might scare many players off.
If you made this change, how would it affect other mods like my own that add Lumber as a construction material? players will now have 2 different Lumbers?

That is why I would sooner add a patch mod to change the build costs of buildings for players who want a challenge.

Offline Maldrick

  • Trader
  • ****
  • Posts: 496
  • Country: us
Re: Lumbers
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2017, 06:05:06 PM »
I absolutely love the expanded building requirements and hope you guys utilize it more.  I think when you see shots of a large beautifully designed town with lots of grand structures the fact that the player had to accommodate extensive production to build it has value.  I say that as someone whose play style changes by the day...Sometimes its about survival and pushing the game mechanics, sometimes I just like to build a nice town as smoothly as possible.  I genuinely enjoy seeing modders push things and approach the game in different ways.  Might not want to play with that every day, but as a fan of this game I love to see where all it can be taken.  In the end, there's no requirement that we all have to play with every mod every time we play.  There are mods that I absolutely love that I don't always, or even rarely, play with, personally.

It's really about balance.  I think it would be a bit extreme to require lumber and extensive materials for, say, the houses you need to build in the first year, but it's entirely appropriate to do that for large grand end-game structures.  I could see requiring both logs and lumber for the latter, among other things, actually.  Could see lumber needed for production buildings, for sure.  But there needs to be a way to accommodate the early game.  Like a small chopper  and sawpit to get you started versus the full woodcutter and lumbermill building in CC.  Maybe a small gatherer versus a large one once you're on your feet?  That kind of thing.  One thing I've really enjoyed about getting into Maritimes recently is how it's tiered in a way...There's no way to build the end game buildings from the start but there are smaller less productive alternatives for the early game.  You have to kind of work your way up and it adds a lot of texture and variety to the look of the town and the gameplay experience, as well as some challenge.

Thinking @kid1293 is probably looking ahead correctly...Tinkering with core things people are used to is asking for problems.  Both with unintended consequences and with players screaming about it. lol  Mainly because all of this is highly subjective....There are just some mods some people can't bear playing without...older mods where the modders are no longer around to make changes should something get broken with something like this comes to mind.  Have a feeling you're going to be running into problems, complaints, and all manner of things to fix for quite a while.

Suggestion for you, RK...We have several flags that are completely under utilized outside of CC and, from what I understand, The North.  I don't know of any other mods that use Precious or Forged at all.  Maritimes is the only one that uses Fabrics off the top of my head and Garden Walls is the only one I've seen that uses Misc.  What about leaving Lumber with Construction and going more with things under those limits?  Things like Nails and Joists under Forged.  I'd love more buildings that forge things besides toolsmiths, personally.  Say, having fabrics required not only for clothing but also for building materials...Like linen or canvas woven from hemp and flax like in other mods but also for a building that makes fittings for construction like Awnings and Furniture under Crafted?  Could require Lumber for that too. Always liked what you did with Cotton in the last full version of NMT and thought it was ripe for other uses.  Not sure where Precious would fit in, but I'm sure there's something.  If we were building the Georgia Statehouse there would be a need for Gold. :P  Actually, wasn't EB talking about getting into paints with his oil press at one point?  That kind of thing.  Just some food for thought.  As an aside, I would also love more things that are spread out across the flags for trading.  Like in CC you can make things under Forged that are used for buildings, but also trade well, and the same production buildings make other things for trade.  Opens up a lot of options.  Seems like outside of a couple major mods practically everything is crammed in Crafted and it would be great to see more use of the under used flags.

Or, go all out and change everything. :) Go crazy with all kinds of changes to the limits. You are a very creative and talented modder and I'd love to see what all you come up with.  If you are approaching this as a total game conversion, why not?  I would just expect not everyone to be happy with it, necessarily, or playing with it to be situational because it will limit what other mods can be used.  But there's nothing wrong with that, really, if that's what you want to do.  Especially if you have a lot to make up for it.  So much of this is a matter of taste, but other total conversions have dedicated fans, so there's that.

Just my thoughts, since you asked.  Love your mods and and looking forward to your new one, regardless. :)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 06:18:20 PM by Maldrick »
"We are the architects of our actions and we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic.
― Ezio Auditore da Firenze

Offline Gatherer

  • Architect
  • *****
  • Posts: 904
  • Country: si
Re: Lumbers
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2017, 05:45:59 AM »
i am thinking about this since very long time. i want lumber be very important to the game, i just not sure "how to" implement it , and up to "how far" it should be integrated in the game.
i wish to have people tell what they think about all that ?

Personally I'm against this "trick" to be implemented. I like using lumber as a separate construction material the way it is now. Honestly I can't understand why some people are against introducing lumber alltogether in their towns.


In the end, there's no requirement that we all have to play with every mod every time we play.

This is something that's been bothering me for some time. Endless requests for every new mod, big or small, sometimes just a tiny new workplace or a new food recipe, to be made playable with the North, NMT, DS, or that baker building some people just can't seem to live without... ::) One of the reasons I'll never download Kid's Boarding House update past the initial release. I have no problem with lumber but dozens upon dozens of different dishes (pancakes, souffle,...) that do nothing but clog the inventory window is a no imo. Do people really make all those meals in their towns???


It's up to you as a modder to decide what an advanced building is. It's not just about building costs though - it's also about advantages/benefits. What benefits does a building offer and what is a reasonable cost to build that building and gain those benefits? If the players agree with you they will happily build your building.

Just a few different types of benefits:

- improved efficiency (houses that are warmer/use less firewood, for example)
- increased output or more workers
- increased storage space
- increased capacity (schools, hospitals, etc)
- increased coverage (bigger radius)
- new production chains and trade options
- aesthetics (how something looks)
- realism (not everyone cares about this though)

I like these ideas/benefits for advanced structures. They make sense.

So, as far as I'm concerned: logs for crude starter structures and lumber for advanced structures. But keep the logs and lumber separate materials.
Fiat panis