Author Topic: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties  (Read 4932 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tom Sawyer

  • Modders
  • Architect
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
  • Country: is
... is there a formula or is it unknown as to the % impact each +star has? say +1 star gives % more food per square etc.

In a way yes but it depends on the type of work. What I did were chopping competitions for testing. A normal banny with 3 stars cuts about 450 - 470 firewood in a year, counted in "Villager" start with chopping block in the right corner. A happy banny with 5 stars cuts about 580 - 600 firewood in this setting. +28% increased productivity or +14% per star.

It will be the same for other crafting professions if they have enough raw material and if the limit is not reached. In other jobs, time is not so important or it works differently. Farming is such a thing. At least in a warm climate I guess it will not be a disadvantage to have lazy farmers. In a cold climate it might be different. Here it can mean to lose yield when farmers idle in harvest season.

Right from the feeling, +25 to 30% more productivity with happy and motivated people sounds to me like Yes, it will make sense. Not necessarily to survive, rather as something in addition. Of course it doesn't answer the question if the opposite strategy is not even more productive, building dense and close to industry, optimizing walkways and not wasting space and resources for religion, entertainment and funny saunas... Maybe it's even a good thing if both ways are comparable. Do you know the old game "Black and White"? :)

Offline Nilla

  • Champion
  • Banished Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 2433
  • Country: se
Quote
+28% increased productivity or +14% per star.

I'm pretty sure, that it's not quite as simple as that. Like you also say, if we read further. I'm sure it depends on the profession, on how they idle, how far away from the workplace/home/stores are the idling spots, which idling spot do they actually use and other things, we can't set numbers on. But we can agree, that there is an effect and it's not neglectable. And it is in an interesting range, where it will make a lot of fun to play with location of different things.

But to play with these things, I need to understand the mechanisms. And I can't say I do, at least not yet. Why do some people regain all stars, others with (as it seems) the same conditions not? I will start a new game tonight and look further. I will check my theory, if there's a limit on how many people can get happy from one building. (I don't really think it is, but I don't know for sure) There's another thing, that stroke my mind, as I looked into the houses; in the homes far away from the buildings with black circles everyone was happy, in buildings closer, there were some unhappy people, even if the black circle didn't touch the house. Can it be, that these areas have a larger influence than the circle? Have anyone noticed something like this?

I will plan the new settlement better to check out these both aspects, and maybe something more. Suggestions?

Offline brads3

  • Banished Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 2766
  • Country: us
NILLA,did you check the inventory of the houses? maybe they didnt pick up a balance of food or ran out of 1 type so that had an affect on some of the residents. think this is going to be tuff to figure with the game switching the bannies' jobs.  as the bannies changes profession so will the path he walks.it is possable that walking to work he passes the black circle.

      as for a suggestion, try splitting the industrial area farther away and build houses with it. then build a town away from it. the farther apart maybe the bannies wont change jobs as much.might be easier to compare differences. 3 areas industry with negative affectfarm area with a 0 happiness affectand a twon with the positives.

Offline Nilla

  • Champion
  • Banished Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 2433
  • Country: se
I had the idea, that people could be influenced when they for some reason stay in the black circle without living in it, too and that those who live closer, will pass there more often, but I don't think, that this has an influence. My charcoal burner had 5 stars, her laborer husband 3. Maybe he had that profession before. As you say, it's hard to say. But if this had an impact, the happiness would change more often by the individuals, somehow in the same speed as they change jobs, but it doesn't.

I had something like you suggest in mind; I will later try to build 2 as identical parts of a settlement as possible, the only difference, happiness buildings only in one part. But first I want to understand the "rules".

Offline Tom Sawyer

  • Modders
  • Architect
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
  • Country: is
I don't have an explanation for these odd families but I'm pretty sure the game calculates a happiness value per house (adding aspects minus detraction) and then setting inhabitants to happy one after the other since the game only knows "normal" and "happy" people. And "sad" of course after losing elders or missing clothing. Priest bonus is probably also an extra step. Where people walk or work is irrelevant for sure. Would be way to complicated to track. I made a test with 100% happy people and built a house outside of all circles. Then demolished a house to force one family to move away and they had then all 3 stars. Maybe these odd cases are any result of rounding inhabitants. Every person must be 3 or 5 and the game cannot depict the exact happiness value this way.

Offline Nilla

  • Champion
  • Banished Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 2433
  • Country: se
You might be right, and that the game calculates an average for a house and since it has no other options than 5 and 3 stars; some people get 5 stars, some 3. That can explain some things. But what I don't understand is why does one house have an average of 5,0 and some 4,5 or even 4,0 when the premises look the same.

I started a new game. This time on a medium lake map. I will stay for a while on land until I go out for the jetties, trying to understand the happiness system. I think, I will also need some space to play with the advanced blast furnace later. Anyhow, from the start is not much to tell. I was too lazy to start my usual favourite; "survivors" and realized, I've never used "Gold Hunter" before. Some more gold on the map than usual, but otherwise not much different from the "trapper" start I used the last time. It's a nice start, if you plan to build a trading dock early.

First picture

Map, settings, and mods.

This time I wanted to plan a bit better in advance but it's difficult. First I'm not used to that kind of planning and second, the circles are of so different size, that it's hard to get a structure. At least, I lack the ability to make this.

Second picture

So I went back to my usual "organic" growth of a settlement. Just a little bit more structured than last time. Unusual for a screenshot from me; you can see several footprints.

The menu of the laborer Lashad is open. That's because I followed him a couple of summers. In summer I send more or less everyone out in the woods to pick food. I let the game run on at least 5X without doing more than marking food and maybe herbs for harvesting. I plan, build and produce other things than food in winter. So I had plenty of time just to just look.

In this summer Lashad "visited" the not yet existing herbalist 5 times and idled 3 times. Opposite to what I remembered, idling was faster done than visiting the herbalist. This means the loss of production (picking berries and mushrooms) was very much smaller because of the lacking stars than because of the lacking hearts.

A few years later after I had an herbalist, a well and a trading dock, I watched him again. This time he "visited" the closed herbalist 3 times. He now had 4 hearts. I don't want my people run across the forest to the herbalist in summer, it must wait until the food is in the stores, thatīs why itīs closed in summer. He idled 4 times this summer. 3 of the 4 idling opportunities took a long time. He was at the well each time I looked. I guess, that he was in the neighborhood anyway and the idling was fast done once, the other times he walked all the way from the forest to the well for a brief idling brake. This time the loss on production because of idling was large.

So Brad, Tom and all others; Production loss because of idling is different dependant on the circumstances. If we have no possibilities to improve the happiness, it looks like it's better to avoid idling places. Or maybe have a lot of idling places, so everyone have one close. I think, it's the time on the road from work to the idling place, that has the largest impact on the production.

Third picture

This time I have a lot of alcohol but it took very long until I could buy any glass for the ale house. I have ordered it from 3 different merchants and finally one brought some. Every house has a well, sauna, trading dock, small chapel and inn close enough. As expected the happiness rose very fast as I put alcohol into the inn. Everyone except 2 people have 5 stars.

This is weird!

I didn't like my first screenshot but since I know that I made a save, just to the time as I put the ale in the inn, I went back to make a better picture. Also this time two people wasn't influenced by the alcohol, but only one of them the same person. One was from a totally different house. I start to believe, that there is some random factor in this, that makes it quite unpredictable.

I've marked the unhappy people Blue; first time play. Red; reload save. Why these houses?

By the way; a third attempt made the same people unhappy as the first time.


Offline Tom Sawyer

  • Modders
  • Architect
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
  • Country: is
I try to make an answer why 2 unhappy people. Looking at your graph it's slightly above 95% happiness. With priest you would probably hit the 100.

You have 22 people. The game has assigned 5 stars (100%) to 19 people and 3 stars (60%) to 2 people. That means:

19 * 1.0 + 2 * 0.6 = 20.2 / 22 people = 96% happiness of the population. These 2 guys are the 4 % unhappy part. We don't know what Luke has coded but it can be that the game calculates an average, population wide happiness value and then assigns people. The unhappy rest has to be somewhere and looking in there house it seems not logical but over the whole population it is.

Why exactly these 2 citizens again after another calculation? I would not expect something else. Maybe they are just at the end of any internal list of citizens.

Offline Nilla

  • Champion
  • Banished Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 2433
  • Country: se
It wasn't the same people the second time, that's the stunning part; one was the same, one from a totally different house.

I have played a bit more and I also let people swap homes. Sometimes a 3* person moves to another house and get 5 *, sometimes not. Sometimes a person who moves into one of these (for some reason, I don't understand) "bad" houses loses a star, sometimes not. It seems very random.

Anyway; you are right; a church with a priest makes everyone happy.

I also have some numbers from production sites I ran continuously; fisher apiary, trapper.

I'll write it like this average 3*/average 5*/increased production %

Fisher: 528/581/10%
Apiary: 351/384/10%
Trapper:98/133/36%

Fisher and apiary are very close to idling spots, the trapper far away. My guess is that these values are extremes. It would be hard to get below a loss of 10% due to idling and I can hardly think of a "worse case" than my trapper far out in the woods. I'll show you some pictures tomorrow. Now good night.

Offline Nilla

  • Champion
  • Banished Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 2433
  • Country: se
Here are the promised pictures.

First picture

The center part of the settlement. You can see, that the idling spots are very close to the fisher and the apiary. I'm pretty sure, that's why the increase of production is small with 5*. The big church with a priest makes everyone happy. I don't think, it pays off this early, to struggle and gather all these stones needed for that church, I guess I will miss them later for more important things. Also to employ one person as priest this early, seems to make little sense. After all it's only a few more people, who get happy because of it.

The alcohol however is cheap and the inn works also without a worker and since it makes around 95% of the people happy, I would say; it may pay off as early as possible. Maybe later it will be the opposite; if the big church with 1 worker can make 95% of 200 people happy (I don't know the %), I guess we can live without booze.

Second picture

Here's an overview, where you also can see the trapper's cabin out in the woods, far away from all idling spots.

I haven't said much to other changes in this version of the mod: I like the woodcutter, who cuts trees. I guess, you can't let him work all the time. If you do, there will soon be no more trees left in the area. But there's no need for that, he's quite efficient. I only let him work when I need logs. If I let him work one winter, it's enough for some years. I haven't noticed that the forest around disappears. So, I can say; in this early part of the game; it works perfect. :)

Maybe it's been this way before and I haven't noticed; the weight of iron is low. It's good, because it needs little space in the stores and the blacksmiths work efficient, because he doesn't need to walk to a store often, but it also have some disadvantage: I wanted to make 2 wagon parts to build one wagon vendor; no need for more in this part of the game. The blacksmith carried all my 44 iron into his shop!  :-\ OK, you can "trick" the system and "fake demolish" the blacksmith for wagon parts and "free" the iron again. Even if it's not a big part of the building materials in the North, from time to time you'll need some iron and if I want to play with the jetty parts, I will need it on more places.

Third picture

We can close the idea, that there's only a certain number of people, who can get happy from one building. The well in the middle of this picture "supports" 4 houses with each 5 person with happiness. Before the church was built everyone except one very religious, anti alcoholic person was happy. I also only have one sauna for the 41 citizens.

I've cut in the content in my trading port. (1 glass is there to test, if anyone wants to pay the higher price for it and it maybe could make sense to produce for export) I like the new merchants and their names. Except the "stingy" Hanseatic merchant, that so far doesn't pay the higher price for anything I want to sell, everyone want to buy something and pays good for it. Most merchants have something to sell, that I want; grain, vegetables, alcohol, even if the amount still is small. I've also bought some iron and iron tools and of course; sheep and bee hives. I will not farm in this harsh climate. If there's no changes, it would work, but opposite to everything else; the needed micromanagement increases as the settlement grows. I will rather depend more on trade to support this settlement.

Offline Tom Sawyer

  • Modders
  • Architect
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
  • Country: is
That all looks good so far. Just as we now have a working and noticeable happiness system where you can build a church and brew stuff for really improving your town. For me it doesn't matter if we cannot solve the last mysteries about one or the other citizen or how exactly it's calculated. These merchants from Hanseatic cities might be stingy (wanting only all your gold and silber) but they are your best friend if you want to buy bricks to reach the industrial level.. :)

Offline Turis

  • Architect
  • *****
  • Posts: 501
  • Country: es
Oops, some of my troops decided on their own to pay a visit to your village. I hope you don't mind their company. :) :P


Offline RedKetchup

  • Champion
  • Banished Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 9785
  • Country: ca
i think it is really genetics lol
> > > Support Mods Creation developments with Donations by Paypal  < < <
Click here to Donate by PayPal .

Offline Nilla

  • Champion
  • Banished Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 2433
  • Country: se
 :D A pity, that there's no goat in Banished. But anyway, the animation has it's limitations, so I guess they wouldn't jump anyway.

That all looks good so far. Just as we now have a working and noticeable happiness system where you can build a church and brew stuff for really improving your town. For me it doesn't matter if we cannot solve the last mysteries about one or the other citizen or how exactly it's calculated.

I'm a bit different, for me it's pretty annoying, not to understand how a "system" work. But maybe, I have to accept that there is some random factor in it, that I can't influence. I'm not there yet (I mean to accept this). I still want to understand more.

For example; shortly after I built the church, everyone was happy. So was I. I thought; no matter what may influences the choice between 5 and 3 stars; as soon as you have all of these happiness factors, everyone is happy. But my happiness didn't last long, same as by one of my Bannis; the priest from all people !  :-\ Suddenly she lost two stars! Why? What happened that made her lose her faith?

The only thing I could think of was that the brickmaker (far away from the home of the priest) was built to about that time. Can it be that the game calculates an average happiness, for all Bannis, that depends on the total number of buildings, with some kind of effect on the happiness? I tried to reproduce this by building another 3 charcoal pits; but no effect. I didn't see anything later, when I built a quarry with a big black circle either. So I guess, the brickmaker far away was "innocent" of the drop.

I'll show some screenshots.

First picture

The blue arrow shows, that there wasn't 100% happiness for long.

Nomads from the church arrived at a spot far away (red circle on the map). There's no bridge over the stream, so they couldn't find their way to the village and froze to death.  :'( The villager however could find their bodies (still without bridge) and now they rest at the cemetery. I thought about moving it to the "black zone" close to the brickmaker, but I was too late. Now it stays where it probably belong better; between the two churches.

Second picture

I have continued my experimenting with the productivity of the trapper; the one with the large difference in output between 5 and 3 stars.

First I built a house outside every happiness circle (except the big church) but close to the cabin.The production from this 3* trapper who lived close, was about the same as the 5* trapper who lived in the village outside the trapper's circle. I watched him for a while and he went to a well in the village for a brief idling brake now and then (always to a well, I never saw him go anywhere else).

 I thought that I might improve the production even more, if I built first a close idling spot; a well, then a sauna and a second trading dock (that I needed anyway) close enough. But here I was wrong. The productivity went down a bit with the 5* trapper. I had forgotten one thing, that also has a large impact on the production in a harsh Nordic climate; the clothes. At the beginning everyone had warm rein deer parkas, but when the population grew, some have to make do with simple wool coats. I know from earlier Nordic games, that there's quite a large difference and that you'll better give your population warm clothing, if possible. Here it also was very obvious. The 5* trapper now had "fair" cothes= a wool coat, earlier it was "excellent" = a rein deer parka. There are also now more buildings in the trapper's circle, which also set the production down.

The green happiness graph "moves" a bit up and down. It's partly because of new houses outside the happiness circles and partly because of some experiments. No really new conclusions.

Third picture

As you may understand; I'm not done with experimenting with the happiness system but I wanted to start some jetty buildings anyway. It was part of my plan and I've waited long enough. I have some questions to @Discrepancy.

- The hospital on the picture looks fantastic! :) It makes me happy! And my Bannis, it has a happiness circle. I guess it's "health" (replacing the Nordic sauna.) To return to my general discussion about the size of the happiness circles. I find the hospital has a too small circle. I think everyone would be happy to have a hospital in the village, even if you live more far away.

- The jetty well for firefighting shows no happiness circle. Does it have one anyway? If not, I find it ought to be added.

- Lumber is "flagged" as logs. I don't like that. My menu showed some 100 logs, so I didn't bother to produce any more. Suddenly my chopper stopped to work and I was really short on firewood. I realized that there were no logs left, only lumber. Red flags his lumber together with bricks and glass as building material. I think it would fit better together with bricks here, too. You have to check out in the inventory anyway, how much of it is bricks and how much roof tiles. I third product wouldn't hurt so much, as it does together with the logs.

- This is maybe also for @Tom Sawyer; some of the merchants bring corn to a price of 1; a bargain. It might be a marketing trick, introducing a new crop from oversee, no one ever heard of. But somehow, I think it's a "bug". A product that doesn't normally exist in the North, comes with the jetties in the game to a wrong price.

- My general impression is that the jetty buildings are expensive, with these new construction materials, that has to be produced. I haven't made any calculations to compare with other buildings and I will not say, it's too expensive. It's difficult to build on water, so why not? (I know, my husband and son worked all day yesterday, to repare our small jetty at the lake  :-\)

Offline Gatherer

  • Architect
  • *****
  • Posts: 968
  • Country: si
Iron fittings are only worth 2 trade value. They are cheap to import. Wagon parts are worth 22.
Fiat panis

Offline Tom Sawyer

  • Modders
  • Architect
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
  • Country: is
Yes this hospital is really nice, especially at this location. People there for sure never want to be healthy again. :)

To put lumber in Wood was my idea or fault. I don't want it in Bricks because it makes a lot of trouble there. Not stored on wood piles, not accepted by timber merchants, confusing brickmakers and so on. In Wood it also makes problems. I can only imagine two solutions: A separate flag for lumber or no lumber. I'm still not convinced of this lumber thingy and prefer a generic "wood" resource. I don't even know how to make a good translation. For me it's just Holz. But I want to support it somehow if it comes in game by another mod. Will think about it.

Corn for 1 is not ok. Must be any dumping trade war action from overseas.^^