Author Topic: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties  (Read 1729 times)

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Offline Discrepancy

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@Nilla ,
It would be my wish to have the building (driftwood searchers/collectors) not work without 2 workers, but the code does not seem to do that. Instead it has a minimum of 2 workers which would mean the workplace could potentially 'poach' a worker from another site. It isn't something I think I can make work properly, but as it is it makes some players think they do need to workers so I will leave it as is. You are correct in the reasoning for the 2 workers though :)
The cost of the demolish/upgrade I have altered to require iron fittings instead for next release.

Jetty Firewood chopper should have the same speed as the 2x2 firewood chopper in the north (has the same work required & work time).

Next version will have an increased speed of the fish drying jetties. I'd also forgotten about increasing value of dried fish, will also be in next version.



Offline Nilla

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@Nilla ,
It would be my wish to have the building (driftwood searchers/collectors) not work without 2 workers, but the code does not seem to do that. Instead it has a minimum of 2 workers which would mean the workplace could potentially 'poach' a worker from another site. It isn't something I think I can make work properly, but as it is it makes some players think they do need to workers so I will leave it as is. You are correct in the reasoning for the 2 workers though :)
The cost of the demolish/upgrade I have altered to require iron fittings instead for next release.

Jetty Firewood chopper should have the same speed as the 2x2 firewood chopper in the north (has the same work required & work time).

Next version will have an increased speed of the fish drying jetties. I'd also forgotten about increasing value of dried fish, will also be in next version.

Normally I want 2 worker collecting driftwood anyway, but sometimes you forget to assign them directly after it's built. That's how I saw, that it also produced with 1 worker.

Sorry about the chopper. It only made something like 120 firewood. I suppose it was bad located or had one of the few left uneducated workers (even if no uneducated should live in that area, but you'll never know), the chopper had this "idling decease" or something else not normal. I will build it once more in a good location and take another look.

The changes all sounds good.

I'll go on with my "numbers"

Food producers on the jetty

Chicken coop
Produces average 110 food and 30 fertilizer. It's very little food but it's enough fertilizer to run at least two other food producer. Every building don't have to be profitable. I can even find it good, to run a chicken coop with a low food production, to get fertilizer to grow more food in the next step. But the problem here is; the next step doesn't produce much food either.

Mushroom farm, greenhouse
Average production 240 mushrooms, 260 potatoes or cabbage. And don't forget there's a small input of fertilizer, vegetables and water. I find this is too low. I don't expect, that this greenhouse gives as much as the one from Red. That chain has to support big meadows and stables with several workers, this only itself and a part of the chicken coop and water store, but I find it's too low compared to other easier production ways.

If you grow potatoes it's easy to see, that you need an input of a few potatoes to put in the earth. I like that. But cabbage?, or peppar?, or mushrooms? You don't put them in the earth to grow some more. That's weird to a farmer's daughter. I guess you just want to compensate for not having to buy any seeds, I can understand that. But it could simply be done by a lower production than a field. I do want the output of this greenhouse lower than of a large field, but as I said, not this low.

Mollusk farm
Average production 580 for 2 fisher. It's more than greenhouse/mushroom farms but less than even a quite bad located fisher. It has no input, no influence area and you can use some mollusk to produce the quite profitable "Fisherman's catch". So a production in this range is OK. Mollusc is one of these food with the wrong price of 1 in the North. Donīt forget to change that, @Tom Sawyer.

Kitchen Kiosk
I like all the jetty buildings, but this one is specially nice. I don't have much of the other ingredients, so I produce "Fisherman's catch". A good profit, even if you never know, how much of it really lands in the trading port and how much of the expensive stew the Bannis eat. (But OK, if they like it, they can eat some, I can afford that ;) ) I haven't made any notes of production numbers, last year it was 357. I think that's quite average on this location. Input: 23 (or 26 if the mollusk would be worth 2 as the fish) output 119. If everything could be brought to the ports, it's an annual profit of 2000. In the same range as Nordic smoker and salter.

Water store
I only made one note of production; 400. It is closed for the moment. I have more water than I need in the store, because the production is high, compared to other more complicated producers and I don't need much for one greenhouse. Unlike many other products; the Bannis don't seem to like carrying it around and spread it to every possible barn, also the vendors don't seem to want it. How did you do that? That "trick" should be used for some other products as well!

One thing is missing on the jetty (at least I haven't found one). A store for fertilizer (one of these popular things, you find on every possible location). It doesn't help, that the chicken coop is located between the greenhouse and the mushroom farm. If they need fertilizer, they have to go to the pile "on land". (This also "helps" to set the production down)

To my game

The settlement is prosperous. A lot of food, clothing, tools and enough materials to build. Thereīs no surplus on logs and firewood, but so far itīs enough.

I have postponed my attempt on autotrade at the food ports. I think it only works, if you set orders and there are so many different merchants. The products from the kitchen messes things up. I suddenly had some 1000 expensive omelets in my store. I thought it would be protein, that I have more than enough myself and don't order, but obviously it's also is vegetables. At least now the merchants bring enough vegetables and grain. But I will go on and try, and eventually tell you @Tom Sawyer how I would like to have a merchant system, that works good with as much autotrading as possible.

I now have enough spare workers to start a more heavy industrial production. I've just loaded the Industry Mining in the North. Maybe I will also load the Oil Mill.

The picture shows the nice Jetty Kitchen Kiosk and behind it the Jetty School House.

Offline Nilla

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Last report from Progressonville. I loaded the DS Industry mining and realized, that this map is way too small for all these large industrial buildings. However the timing is perfect, @Tom Sawyer just published an update of the North. So I will start a new game tonight.

Summary of my impressions with this version of the North together with the jetty buildings.

I like to have a working happiness system. It's slightly irritating not to understand it in detail, but it's fun to play with and it does work. After some initial problems, I managed to have average 5* all the time. There are some people with only 3 *. Some I understand why, others not.

These two major mods I use here work good together. I would like to see small adjustments here and there on the jetty buildings, but all in all; it makes a lot of fun to play with these two mods. (One thing I haven't mentioned is the small happiness radius of the church, I would like to see it larger)

My attempts to use autotrade wasn't very successful. I've said it before; the coins and the different prices makes it difficult. But i think it could work, if you separate buying and selling to different ports.

I took a look at the "DS Industry Mining in the North" . It also includes the Oil mill so I don't need that mod separately. I have a few comments and questions to @Discrepancy.

I can see that the "black circles" are very big for some buildings. It will be a challenge to get industrial worker happy. My guess is, that it will probably not make sense to try. The distance to work would be too long and take away what you win in less idling, but we will see.


First picture

Here you can see some of the big "unhappiness circles". The text around is good. Some industrial buildings for not metals have yellow text circles. Yellow normally means happiness. Does this mean that the weaver, silver furnace, pottery kiln makes people happy? If not, I would suggest to change the color, if they do; what "kind of happiness" do these buildings provide? There are also some monuments, that for sure give happiness, again; what kind of happiness?

Second picture

I could find a small spot to build a flax farm. The menu says, that it grows between 30 and 90 F. I'm not so familiar with Fahrenheit temperatures, but I know 32 is the freezing point, so it doesn't grow at this picture (-22 C), still the farmer is planting (the man in red). Does this mean, that the plant he now puts in the deep frozen ground (a tedious job) starts to grow, when the temperature gets close to the freezing point, or is the work in winter in vain, so this is a building, that need a lot of micromanagement to be efficient?

Donīt look at the inventory.  :-[ it looks like there were few food merchants there lately. A looooottttt of fish and meat, little vegetables and grain. 


Offline Discrepancy

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yes, the black circles are a detraction in happiness, the yellow add happiness.
the silver mine, finery forge, weaver, pottery kiln and iron anvil monument all have a happiness of goods, the silver anvil gives a spiritual happiness.

all info for buildings and most of added resources has been added to this website: https://banishednorth.ds-mods.net

most of the radius' I am going to alter, mostly smaller for detraction buildings in next update.

The flax farm is indeed a bit useless without micro-managing. the silly farmers will keep planting no matter what the temperature. I wish I could find a way to make them work seasonally like the crop field, but that works with a different mechanic.

Offline Nilla

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I started a new game yesterday. There were some minor problems, partly because of little things in the files, partly because of my own mistakes. I'm not sure everything is solved, yet. Anyhow I played all evening and have the impressive population of 12 (!) after 17 years.  Almost an achievement!  ;D

Why this slow development?

I like to play different kind of games. I don't want to change much mods. The main thing for me, is to test the happiness system in the new North together with some DS mods, last time the jetty, this time industrial mining. I need some variation to my last trade based game, so I want to farm. Farming is boring in a harsh Nordic climate (at least after a while). You can't do without micromanagement, so I decided; this time I'll play on "mild", so that the harvest can begin without manual start. I like challenges, mild climate isn't very challenging, so I decided to use "Ironman".

That was the first obstacle. The "Ironman" file was corrupted. Tom fixed it fast and everything was fine.

"Ironman" is normally difficult; not only do the Bannis need the double amount of food, they also need more clothes. Here with all that idling; it's brutal! I said, I like challenges, so I decided to chose the start option "Survivors". It was possible to manage the start but I'm pretty sure, that I couldn't do it on "harsh". Have anyone tried?

After a while, I thought, that there must be some incompatibility problems between the North and Industrial Mining. I had a "dot" at the menu. No good sign. A little later I read in the North thread, that other people had problems with the iron bloom. I had played 2 hours and everything worked fine. However I did wonder about one thing; Tom said, that he made the camp fire to an idling spot. I wondered why my people never used it, perhaps it was even good this way. I guess that the idling time would have been even longer, if they had interrupted their search for blueberries out in the woods, to get home to the fire to idle. But why could I play, the others not? Confused old lady; downloaded the new North version but forgot to put it in the WinData! :-[

But just because I'm confused doesn't mean I'm stupid! This made me realize, that there can't be any compability problems between a mod I don't use and another. So I took another look and saw, that the Wagon vendor was above the Industrial Mining. I know, always the latest mod over older, unless other instructions are given. After I've changed this, my "dot" at the menu is gone.

Anyhow @Tom Sawyer fixed the iron bloom. I put the new version in the WinData. The game works. I had to demolished my blacksmith, after that it produces iron and tools, everything ought to be fine. But I'm not sure it is. People still use the barn to store iron bloom. As I've understood it, it should be on stock piles. The limit is counted together with ore, that part works. Will this give me problems later? Does it help, if I demolish all stockpiles or/and barns?

OK you might say; all these things may take time but not cause the population to grow slowly. Right! But the combination "Ironman", "Survivors" and idling workers did. I didn't want too many children, so I started with the vanilla wood houses (in the North for 4 people). I wanted to start the farming before I took any nomads. That means first a trading port and to fill it with enough goods took time. My 4 adults was mostly busy, collecting food for themself and their 4 children, so I never had time to build that chapel to attract nomads. I guess it was a mistake. If I play this start once more, I would try to build the chapel faster. Things turned out very much better, as the first children became adults and I got some nomads.

First picture

The difficult start is done. Most things look good. 4 Adults support only 2 children. There's supply enough. I've just built the herbalist. When the frost comes, I'll start to build the trading post. Think a chapel would have bin the better choice.

I've cut in mods, map, and settings.

Second picture

Now 4 adults also need to support 4 children. You can see that it's much harder. Luckily one of the first merchants brought barley seeds. Also luck (or rather the cleverness of @Tom Sawyer) my Bannis found a few gold nuggets, so they could pay for it. I also spent 2 gold nuggets on 10 wool coats. I kill every deer I see, but there was seldom enough coats lately. Maybe it doesn't pay off in a mild climate, but it feels good, that they don't need to walk around in ragged coats.

Third picture

This is where I am now. Things look much better; two of the children can help with all the work, they have moved together into one of the old houses as the rest of the family built a larger house. A nomad couple has joined the community. They found that the other family could better use the new bigger house they built, so they moved in to the other old house. We expect the settlement to grow and hope we can provide for the new children.

I've cut in the content on the stockpile and the barn with the iron bloom. Can this mean trouble later?

Offline Discrepancy

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 :) glad you sorted out the load order causing the missing toolbar icon.


I beta tested with Ironman and also struggled on mild, I also only managed to increase population with nomads from the chapel.
Haha, if you can do this I'll be very impressed because I could never properly get my industrial settlement to its potential. keeping up food is very hard, savvy trading is needed i think.

Online brads3

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can i add to your confusion? have you ever saw the cloud of doom? was doing some tests last night and disabled the NORTH mod.my save game should still work,righht? well it does, but it is corrupted. when i loaded the game,i gott a black cloud that clears after the game fully loads.it happens quick.the pic is right as it starts to clear. if i had played and tried to save, the next save would be a dot instead of a map to load. weird. once i went out enabled the north and reloaded, all is fine again.


Online RedKetchup

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a total eclipse ??
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Online Tom Sawyer

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Iron bloom in barns is intended and they can also put it on piles. So everything is fine in your Ironman village.

This "black cloud" I always get after removing a mod from windata and starting a game with activated mod reloading this file from Steam with time delay on screen. That might be the explanation @brads3. Or it's the wrath of Odin because you disabled the north.. ;D

Online brads3

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don't have steam and it does only happen when disabling the north.i figure it was a viking curse

Offline Nilla

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I'm in on curse of Odin or maybe "Mars attacks"; the shadow of a huge spaceship, or both in combination; Odin sent the aliens in his wrath. ;)

I'm relieved about the bloom in barns OR stockpiles. I didn't think, that would work. I thought, that you set a flag and have to decide, where to put everything of that flag. Does this mean that also iron ore could be stores in barns as well or can you separate them?

And @Discrepancy, I'm not sure at all, that this will work. I know, that you can survive an "Ironman" game under "normal" circumstances. I've played it before. What I don't know, is if it works with this happiness reduction. And I think, I will have to use all possibilities there are, to produce enough food and resources. My "concept" is to "grow by immigration" to something like 100 inhabitants and make a farming community with uneducated people on the east side of the river. Then stop taking nomads and expand to the other side of the river, mainly with forestry and your industries. Here I will settle only educated. Sure I will try to use trade, but I don't know yet in what ways. We will see! What's the fun if we knew.

Online Tom Sawyer

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Ore goes only on piles. Iron bloom also in barns by a secondary flag which only affects storage but not counting or limits. That the happiness change hits Ironman games more than with normal difficulty I also noticed in tests. Can make it even more interesting. :)

Offline Nilla

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........... Can make it even more interesting. :)
Interesting, I don't know. :-\ This game is frustrating! You know me, when there's something I don't understand, I'm not very pleased. Maybe it hasn't anything to do with "ironman"; but this game is special!  >:(

Let's start with the small things; slightly annoying but manageable for my temper. We can say, it didn't start well yesterday evening:

First picture
It's a slow game, yes. The last thing I did, the day before yesterday, was to build some more houses. I wrote;
Quote
We expect the settlement to grow and hope we can provide for the new children.
I hadn't played many month and this happens!  :'( No good omen!

The usual foreign merchant built his round house also in this settlement and now we can see the inventory. Not bad at all!

Second picture

You can see, there's only 8 wool left and the farmer has stopped producing woolcoats. I changed the production to lamp oil. I don't need any yet, but some merchants pay good for it and if there's nothing more important to do, I produce some. It took very long to change the production, so I took a look. The lady in turquoise is assigned to carry the wool away, but somehow she seems disabled and can't carry a heavy load, only one wool at the time! ??? I looked a little closer and she carries a lot of food around, so I guess, that's the reason, she can't carry more than one wool at the time. But why doesn't she put the food somewhere in a barn or in her house? I watched her go 4 times between the workplace and the small barn, always with only one wool. After that, there was a reassignment of jobs and someone else made room for the tallow in one blow. I have played a lot of Banished and I like to look at details, but I've never seen anything like this before.  :-\

Third picture
Here's another thing, I haven't seen before. Still the same year. I have decided to keep some vanilla houses. I think, it's the best way to keep the number of children on a manageable level. I actually thought about loading the jetty buildings again. It has houses of every size, but at least now this early in the game, I don't want to produce lumber and iron fittings, and I do want to grow, so I'll stick to a mixture of the nice old Nordic huts and vanilla stone houses.  (Maybe @Tom Sawyer, something to think about in a future upgrade; houses for smaller families. I know many people like houses for 4 person. Normally I don't, but in "Ironman" they do make sense.)

Anyway I don't want any fuel consuming wood houses. I guess, even in mild it pays off fast to upgrade. The man who lived in the house wasn't pleased at all. Shortly after he was thrown out, he lost a star. I haven't seen this before. I'm no frequent builder of boarding houses. When I upgrade, take nomads, lose a building in a fire, I let the people stay homeless for a short time. I've only seen them lose a star, if it takes very long, to build their first house, never by upgrading. Maybe it was the chock, first a widower, then homeless; the combination had this effect. The second house was upgraded without any losses of stars.

You may say; what's the complain; these small things happens all the time. They are Bannis! Yes, right, this was just the warm up. The Blow came a few years later. Can anyone explain this:

Fourth picture
Actually, I played several years without any trouble. And in year 22 or 23 I could even buy some glass. :) I was happy, because I need that inn. In "Ironman" I'm sure it pays off. Every work outside the "village center" takes a lot more time than usual. It takes years, to clear ground for new fields. They hardly get there, before they need to go to village to idle. If I can't get the Bannis happy fast, I don't think this village can survive.

The inn was built. I grow barely, so it was fast done to produce some ale. Everything ought to be good! But nothing happened. No change in happiness. Every house is in the circles of well, sauna, trading port, chapel and inn. Absolutely nothing! I thought, maybe Tom made some changes and I need the innkeeper working (I took him away as I used to in my last game) Innkeeper working, shortly afterwards, some people became happy. And I got happy, too. It wasn't as many who got happy, as in my last game, but all the same; it works. A working innkeeper doesn't really matter, when I use the alternative "Import alcohol", he works as a laborer anyway.

After some time the happiness dropped to the initial 3 stars. I did absolutely nothing! I thought, maybe the people doesn't like, that the innkeeper is out in the forest, picking blueberries but I can't let him produce so much ale (even if the Bannis drink a lot) but there's another option; to let him make roasted meat. It's a decent profit, so why not? After a while the Bannis became happy again. Weird! And it became even weirder. The happiness soon dropped again. Even with a meat producing innkeeper. ???  >:(  ??? >:(

I was lucky (or not?). I happened to have a save, just after the happines started to rise for the first time. I usually don't make many saves, only when I make a brake and leave the computer. Of course, I had to go back and see, if I can find any reason for this strange up and down. I think I've played these 1―-2 years 5 times. I can only say; it has nothing to do with the innkeeper; if he works, if he produces or not, doesn't matter. It has nothing to do with, if I take the nomads, that came that spring, or not. I see absolutely nothing unusual, that could cause this. Every time I play; this up and down!

WHAT IS THIS??

Online Tom Sawyer

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I think if the happiness change hits Ironman a bit to much then a few things can be made easier. For example to give the wooden chapel a priest option to reach full happiness earlier in game. Or to make barley a bit stronger since it has lost the preservation bonus of edible ale. Actually it should be something adding options to solve the challenge rather than just increasing any amount. Maybe to preserve cabbage to improve the supply of vegetables using salt and milk for this stuff I don't dare to write because of this cliche with which you would tease me.^^ Maybe you have a good idea.

For this up and down in your graph I don't have an explanation. On first glance it looks like out of alcohol but you would know it if that would be the case. Maybe I can find something looking at it in game if you upload or send me your save file.

Offline Nilla

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I think, too that it's almost impossible to play "Ironman" if you aren't able to raise the happiness in a reasonable time. The biggest problem is to clear enough land to expand fields and pastures. It's bad enough that they need to go home and eat all the time. With all that idling, it gets too much.

A possibility to put a priest in the chapel is one good thing. Maybe also a possibility to consume a small amount of alcohol without glass (if you understand what I mean). It took a very long time in this game before a merchant came, that offered glass to build a inn. (or maybe you don't need the alcohol with a working priest) I know, some people would like to have a mini version of brick and glass making, where you don't need to import the first material. This could solve this problem. Personally I'm quite fond of the idea, that you need to "buy the technology" to be able to produce these "advanced materials". Small simple workshops would take away that feeling.

As you say; more ways to increase the "value" of the basic food would be fine. Today you can do it with meat and fish in several ways, with wheat and rye and with berries, something for vegetables would be good, maybe also barely. If you for some reason, ;) (I wouldn't tease you) don't like the lactic acid treatment of cabbage, there could always be drying of different vegetables; mushrooms, beans.

I made some more tests;

First I replaced "Ironman" with "Norseman" (no crash or something) but these happiness waves, were still there. Then I started a new easy game; Norseman, Farmers. I didn't had these waves but I only got a few people happy.

At the blue arrow; every house had well, sauna, market, chapel, inn with alcohol. Only a few very young children became happy.
At the red arrow; a nomad couple got a house, they were both happy.
After that the happines rises slowly. Every child that's born stays happy.
At the yellow arrow; I built a church. Only one of the initial adults are happy but I think all children.

If we look at the beginning, the happiness graph looks weird. What is, if they have a "memory" If they once was this miserable, they never will be happy again? I'm pretty sure that no clothes causes at least some of this total absence of happiness. I've started a new game to look more closely. But it's strange, that the "survivor" start doesn't show a beginning like that. They too have no clothes from the beginning.

Iīll put the save here on the blog, maybe someone else have some suggestions.