Author Topic: One year is one year - alternative version  (Read 390 times)

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Online Voeille

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One year is one year - alternative version
« on: May 15, 2018, 02:53:53 PM »
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 05:11:57 PM by Voeille »

Offline Yandersen

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Re: One year is one year - alternative version
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2018, 09:23:52 AM »
Always wanted to try this kind of mod, but never seen the correct implementation.

There is a general problem of population instability in vanilla game caused by old-timers fortified in houses preventing the youngsters to multiply. To overcome this it must be ensured that reproduction age interval is larger than non-reproduction period. So generally, the starting age of child-bearing must be pushed down, the top limit - pushed up, and the end-of-service age - minimized.

Looking at the history, in the middle ages (seems like it is the game setup) it was common to give daughters away as brides soon after they had their first mense (12.5 yo in average). So I recommend to set the starting age for child bearing to 13-15 yo and prolong the end-of-production age up to 48-56 yo (menopause). As for the end-of-service age, in middle ages it hardly went above 65, so 60-65 is a good setting.

With this setup, the reproduction range becomes 33-43 years long (av. 38 years of production), while the house-stuck period for non-reproductive old-timers is 4-17 years long (10.5 years in average).

With this setup it should be both historically/physiologically realistic and demographically stable. And that 1:1 is like a cherry on top of the pie.  :)

Did I motivated you, Voeille, to make some changes?..  ^.^

Online Voeille

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Re: One year is one year - alternative version
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2018, 09:33:55 AM »
I can make another version, itís easy to change, so anyone can ask for their own flavour :)

However, it seems to be acting weird, at least in my game. When I was testing it in the mod kit game, students graduated at 15 when they lived close to school. But, in the normal game version, they happen to graduate at 12 for some reason, so Iím pushing the numbers up and observe how the game behaves. I have no idea why there is a difference between the normal and mod kit game, they should act the same.

Online RedKetchup

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Re: One year is one year - alternative version
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2018, 09:36:11 AM »
i dont know if my numbers would be good or not... i would rather put 14y for min adult(un-educ) and few less year as education (16-18y educated). get babies up to 44 max and die around 64-70y
these are more realistic real life numbers. the fact we can live now over the 70s, is more a modern fact with todays medecine.
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Online Voeille

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Re: One year is one year - alternative version
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2018, 10:16:49 AM »
Is there a way to have the 100x speed from the mod kit game in the normal one? Now Iím testing the mod while playing normally, but to test it better (e.g. with school distance), itíd be more convenient to just make a test save, but using it at speed 10x would take forever.

Online RedKetchup

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Re: One year is one year - alternative version
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2018, 10:23:58 AM »
i dont think so... but @Discrepancy  are the Master of everything ^^ i will let him answer :)
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Online brads3

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Re: One year is one year - alternative version
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2018, 11:03:35 AM »
have you checked the propertime thread?  when developing the propertime mod,KIDD showed what numbers he changed and what they did. also the 1:1 mod has options as it was adjusted many times.
https://banishedinfo.com/mods/view/27-one-year-is-one-year-Update-26-17091434
check the changelog

      i like the balance of the propertime mod. i believe my version is slightly different than the end 1. the children become workers at 10 or students.move out, marry and have children at 15-16 after they finish school.this helps pair them up when building houses. bannies have gave birth in mid 40's. death is delayed but with a longer range.you can get a bannie to live into 80's but most will not.generally they have babies about 2 yrs apart,think it ranges 2-4.

      if a version allows the move out to be lower,then you can end up with a lot of singles households. they won't pair up well since the marriage age is normally higher than the school start age.

Offline Yandersen

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Re: One year is one year - alternative version
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2018, 07:44:56 AM »
Guys, c'mon, we are in the medieval times in Banished, let's don't project our today's living standards on the game setting! My stroked close-to-90 granny tyranes the family with her overlonged cardiostimulated life, and me is 28 - never had a girl. It would be such a nonsense some 700 years ago!

At those times, a 7 or 8 yo peasant boy considered grown up enough to start learning his Real Purpose of Existence - to work with soil, once he got strong enough to lift a hoe. So this is our "min adult(un-educ)" age should be in game. As for education - what kind of education you would expect in those times? An ability to read was a miracle, given to the Chosen Ones by priests, and it hardly took more than a few years of "schooling". So consider 10yo is "min adult(educ)" age, okay?..

As for marriage in Dark Ages, it was pretty much driven by the ability of a girl to carry child - soon after her first menses. So 13-14yo is a good min age to set as marriage limit to. It was common to have big age difference, since the marriage was mostly arranged, not "love"-driven.

As for children, those were not so planned... Well... Consider there was no internet, no TV, no any kind of entertainment to please those poor bastards on evenings after the day of laboring in fields, except for... Well, with no electricity and candles being too expensive for peasants to burn after the sunset, you may imagine what they did to have a little joy before going to "bed" to restart another day of stupid work. And there was no any kind of contraception, so... Children was born almost non-stop. Most died young thanks to a variety of diseases, of course, not to mention a high childbirth mortality rate. A relief for the woman was a menopause (over 50yo). So this sets our max limit for marriage and child-bearing age.

As for the death age, as I said before, only few were lucky enough not to die before hitting 60. We talking about hard peasant life here, okay?.. So don't argue much about setting the death age to 55-65, no any above that, please, people!..

Given those numbers implemented correctly, bannies will multiply like rabbits stopped only by the numbers of houses, so demographic collapses will not occur any more. With those numbers even the 5x slower aging will not make a significant slowdown for village development.

---

As I see, a lot of people shown interest in this discussion. So I propose for the author to post all age limits with short description, so we can all argue about what they should be set to hoping for some consensus to be reached and finally implemented in the mod. Go?  :)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 07:51:39 AM by Yandersen »

Online Voeille

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Re: One year is one year - alternative version
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2018, 08:02:46 AM »
OK, hereís a list of changes from the download post, so you can request whatever you want and Iíll add it after fixing the education time problem in the current version (still testing) :)

  • Citizens become uneducated labourers or students at age 7 (vanilla: 10; 1:1: 6). If you donít build schools and you get 7 year old workers, they can move out if you build a new house, but wonít marry before 15, so there isnít much point of building houses before theyíre old enough. 
  • They finish school at 15 and can marry at that age (vanilla: 10 for marriage, 15 for graduation; 1:1: 6 for marriage, 9 for graduation).
  • They can have children between the age 16 and 40 (vanilla: 10-40; 1:1: 6-40 [or 35, Iím not sure]).
  • Maximum age difference for marriage is 15 years (vanilla: 20; 1:1: for what Iíve observed, somewhere between 40 and 50).
  • Death of old age occurs between 70 and 100 years (vanilla: 60-90; 1:1: I think 50-80).
  • 16/05/2018: Tombstones stay for about 150 years instead of 5. Make sure you have enough space for everyone!
Ages that are set in stone and arenít a range are uneducated adult/student, marriage age, and marriage age difference.

Online kid1293

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Re: One year is one year - alternative version
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2018, 08:33:01 AM »
@Voeille  I suggest
Remove tomb stone changes from this. Keep it clean!
It can easily start being a mess. How much can a bannie carry?
How much do they really need to eat? Can nomads be educated?
The options are almost endless and you end up with a monster of a mod :)

Offline Yandersen

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Re: One year is one year - alternative version
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2018, 11:20:45 AM »
@Voeille :

"Citizens become uneducated labourers or students at age 7" - Agreed.

"They finish school at 15 and can marry at that age" - Almost. According to this article, "New university students would enter the institution around the age of 14 or 15 years old", which means they finish basic school at 14.

"They can have children between the age 16 and 40" - I suggest the range of 15-45, considering the info here. Remember - the bigger this range, the more stable the population number over time.

"Maximum age difference for marriage is 15 years" - Why? This limit may play a significant role towards population instability. I suggest changing it to match the whole childbearing ages range, so for the suggested 15-45 it would be 30 years.

"Death of old age occurs between 70 and 100 years" - NONONO!!! Much lower must it be, yes! Strongly recommend 55-65. Or 50-70 at least...

"16/05/2018: Tombstones stay for about 150 years instead of 5" - No! The tombstone lifetime must match the maximum lifespan of the direct descendants, so for the recommended 55-65 range it is 65 years. No longer than that. Even if matches the average bannie lifespan (60), you would need more tombstone slots than average population number you run (accounting for accidental deaths). Imagine running a 1000 bannies village for a weekend finding a place for graveyards to hold 1000 slots... Tombland. Period.

---

Please, people, support those numbers...  ;(
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 11:28:32 AM by Yandersen »

Offline noamsan

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Re: One year is one year - alternative version
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2018, 01:16:37 PM »
I must take issue Yandersen - I might be wrong - please correct me if I am - but I am under the impression that most of the stats about average life expectancy in the middle ages also include the high child mortality. Albeit there were fewer older people than today it sure was possible for a healthy individual to life up to 70, 80, 90.
However, child mortality was so high that it highly distorts the average.

Take a look for example at the children of John III Sobieski, a king no less - who certainly had the best care available. Out of 13 children only four lived long enough to become adults!
Now think about a peasant with no access to medicine.

John Sobieski's children were:

James Louis Sobieski (2 November 1667 Ė 19 December 1737), Crown Prince of Poland, married Countess Palatine Hedwig Elisabeth of Neuburg and had issue.
Twin Daughters (9 May 1669), stillborn or died shortly after birth.
Teresa Teofila (October 1670), was a frail child and failed to survive for more than a month.
Adelajda Ludwika (15 October 1672 Ė 10 February 1677), called "Barbelune", died at the age of four.
Maria Teresa (18 October 1673 Ė 7 December 1675), called "La Mannone", died at the age of two.
Daughter (October 1674), stillborn or died shortly after birth.

Teresa Kunegunda (4 March 1676 Ė 10 March 1730), married Maximilian II Emanuel, Elector of Bavaria and had issue.
Aleksander Benedykt (6 September 1677 Ė 19 November 1714), died unmarried.

Daughter (13 November 1678), stillborn or died shortly after birth.
Konstanty Władysław (1 May 1680 Ė 28 February 1726), married Maria Jůzefa Wessel but had no issue.
Jan (4 June 1682 Ė 1 January/12 April 1685), died at the age of two.
Daughter (20 December 1684), stillborn or died shortly after birth.

Online Tom Sawyer

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Re: One year is one year - alternative version
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2018, 02:34:28 PM »
Yep, this mortality in childhood is a point. Other causes of low life expectancy were wars, famines and epidemics. Life was more dangerous but dying of old age is another thing. If not hit by these causes they could become old, maybe even older than today since our modern times also have their causes to die earlier.

About marriage age I did some research as a discussion like this appeared on Steam. The result was that at least in northern and western Europe (which was relevant for my citizen mod) the marriage age in the Middle Ages was higher than 16. It's written about an age range of brides of 18 - 22 years. Below 16 was very rare and not really accepted. In other parts of the medieval world it might have been different but this 12 - 15 yo puperty range is something from a time before, tribes of ancient Europe or so. I defined 16 this time and then we lowered it to 15 for better gameplay with still 16+ to start child bearing.

The thing is also that Banished is actually not medieval, at least vanilla Banished is not and if you play mods then also not with CC and most others. It's rather somewhere in early modern, colonial or pre-industrial times.

Of course that's all only interesting if you want it realistic. For balancing reasons it can make sense to define completely different values. Especially for a more stable population as Yandersen said. :)

Offline Yandersen

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Re: One year is one year - alternative version
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2018, 09:39:32 AM »
@noamsan :
Interesting find, but this is an example of royal blood troubles. Royals are a closed group of people denying fresh blood for generations, therefore genetic diseases is the most common issue among their children. Peasants naturally healthier, but noone wrote about their live unlike of the royal's.
As for the rest, you must be right, true. Because "death of old age" is just a moniker for "ow, hell, idk what exactly killed this overold mushroom, but noone cares, so let's call it natural". With age, immune system becomes too weak to hold the line and surrenders the body to host all kind of pests to live in it until some of them decide to team up to finish the lifespan of the useless host. That's why today's medicine helps prolonging the life as we have a variety of drugs to fight the diseases instead of the immune system which degrades naturally after the age of 50 - see Immunosenescence. That is why I recommend this number as a low limit for the Death-of-old-age events to start occurring. The high limit can be set to 70. I still recommend 50-70. U see, bannies do not go for retirement, they work till they die. Hard to imagine anyone older than 70 working hard like 15yo boy. So consider this point too, taking game mechanics into the account as well.

---

@Voeille : with the info above, here is the recommended age limits to switch to:

Children become uneducated labourers or students at age 7.

Students finish school at 14.

Marriage can start from 16.

Bannies can have babies in the 16-45 age range. Consequently, the maximum age difference is 29.

Death of old age occurs between 50 and 70.

Tombstones last for 60 years.

I expect those numbers to be not just more realistic, than vanilla, but also being better from demographics perspective of a gameplay, so this is a step forward. Still, it requires some long-run testing without 1:1 aging first to confirm that before releasing the finished version with 1:1 scale.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 09:59:12 AM by Yandersen »

Online Voeille

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Re: One year is one year - alternative version
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2018, 10:28:11 AM »
I think I fixed the education time (I need to wait for one citizen Iím following to confirm), so Iíll be updating that soon. I was thinking about making a version without tombstones included, but those things really go together, a separate mod that makes them stay for long wouldnít work well without 1:1 ageing, because citizens would fill the cemeteries too fast.

@Yandersen
Here is a version with the numbers you want. According to my tests with the education length (thatís the most problematic one as the numbers are weird) it should work as intended, but tell me if something is wrong.

If anyone wants a version for themself, please list the numbers like Yandersen did, and will alter them.