Author Topic: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North  (Read 2132 times)

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Offline Nilla

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Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
« on: June 12, 2018, 01:37:02 AM »
I started a new game yesterday evening. It took some time to catch up what has happened on this webpage the days I was gone, so I didn't get very far, just played a few years.

My goals for this game are;

-to understand the modded happiness system better
-to see if a settlement in the North can live mainly from @Discrepancyīs industrial production
-to learn to write shorter blogs  ;)

First picture
Start. I've cut in map settings and mods. I want an easy start and will try to enter the industrial area as soon as possible.

Second picture
Not many years but the Nordic Bannis have been busy, some are even happy but not all of them. I guess the rest of them will need some alcohol for that.  :-\ :P As soon as we can buy some glass, I'll be happy to fulfill their wishes. :)

Offline Discrepancy

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Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2018, 04:12:49 AM »
:) thanks for testing. And I'm sorry for not responding to your last blog posts.
I plan to update the industry mod to fit more into theme with the North's production values, but this won't be undertaken quickly.
I have put on hold my current project and will concentrate on getting an update to this mod and also the Timber Mill done soon (lumber/timber will now go back to custom5 construction/building materials).

But, I hope in this blog you can give me some ideas on better production numbers :)


a slow timber mill/lumber mill
Timber mill production of firewood with the north/cc/vanilla is always hard to find a balance if using a production time the same as the 'base' wood chopper (in the north this is the small 2x2 chopper. The mill production of Timber becomes incredibly quick and unrealistic...
But in the next release I will have the mill on par with the chopper so it will be comparable speed to produce firewood with 1 worker, and offer an advantage with multiple workers. This will of course have the consequence of meaning huge amounts of timber is produced, it will require more micro-managing of timber production from the player.

Banished modkit code doesn't appear to allow for the resource quantity to be altered per resource in building, so we are left with a game that very much centers all around the production rate of firewood from logs (I believe this anyway), this has a consequence that every resource we add through a mod needs to have a relevance to the production speed, quantity and requirement for firewood. with an output of 2-3 logs from a tree (6 in the north), and 3-4 firewood, from 1 log, it sets a precedent of how much all other production chains can behave.

So this leads to a side note, after my self-enforced break (I spent 2-3 weeks not modding and have instead been playing some cities skylines), my current project is combining all of my mods into 1.
Not just for a single download, but to be able to make them work more in unison instead of separate... this led me into the firewood production and has made me go down the route of also adjusting vanilla numbers to come up with a better or perhaps just different production of not just firewood/logs/timber but also most other resources, and this has really been as a consequence of changing the log-firewood production to better integrate lumber/timber into the game as a construction requirement.
So this leads me to a dilemma in which I am alienating my single mod to an extent to be incompatible with others. Though this is only in production values & storage flags, but should still be playable as should not cause a crash. So yes, my mods will go down a different road of limits, and it did cause me a headache @brads3 ;)
I think it is needed, I feel I need to go down this road and try something different. The different use of storage/limit flags allows for the future direction of the mod, but I have kept the use of the main construction limits clean (logs,stone,iron), I've also kept it the same as North & vanilla/CC for the different storage requirements for each limit group (either in barns or stockpiles), I have made stockpile resource models for all rawmaterials that may cross that boundary in other mods (either stored in barn one mod or stockpile the other).
But, only the single combined DS mod will have different production values. For now the various separate mods will remain using the same or similar as is production now.


 ??? I apologise for such a confusing post.

Offline brads3

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Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2018, 05:26:13 AM »
i don't mean to do that DS. i am impressed with LUKE and the modders. so far nothiing is really failing due to flags.even stuff from 1.06 imit flags seems to work with 1.07 buildings for the most part.i did remove an old mod due to issues with salt being different and not storing in a bakery.i think some of the riddles of storig the different flag limits is confusion by players mosre than problems.with more options it has gotten smoother.we had to relearn things too.

         the firewood lumver production has always been probematic.NECORA gave up and made 2 cutters to solve it.finding a good balance on any production can be a hassel.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2018, 07:23:10 AM »
Timber/Lumber - Firewood.

Why on earth do all your lumber mills have to produce firewood, guys? In my world a sawmill produces boards, planks and beams of different size and quality, never firewood. Of course there will be some waste wood, that you can buy cheap, but you have to cut it to firewood yourself. No sawmill will deliver it cut and split, ready to use.

Let your sawmill produce lumber/timber only and your problem with high/low production compared to firewood would be solved. (You will still have to fight with comparing the profit but that's another matter) Let it be possible to cut firewood from timber, you can call this wastewood timber as well. Think about it like a tree, that's made to logs. Some logs are used for construction, some for firewood; better quality logs/timber is building material, less quality is used to make firewood.

Let it be more profitable to use timber for firewood, if you look at the amount of firewood you can get out of one tree and let it be more profitable to use the log directly without the timber detour, if you look at the amount of firewood one worker can produce. This will add value to the game. There will be no always valid "best way", you have to decide for each game and maybe also during one game. I can't have enough of such decisions.

The high profit of a vanilla woodcutter is a problem. You are right in setting new values. Other modders have made it as well (Tom, Red). But I realize, that's it not easy just to reduce the production/profit without thinking about the consequences: What is if a woodcutter only produces a few 100 wood each year? In a harsh climate a simple house may need 50 firewood (or more) each year. Is it reasonable to use 1 chopper for 5 houses? Or are there alternative houses with better heat economy or alternative ways to get firewood? If you take the profit of firewood away, it will be much harder to buy seeds and animals at the beginning. Are there alternative trading goods for the start? And so on............

I realize these things take time. I can only say; take your time! And don't worry too much about compability. If one more modder makes his own "thing", maybe more people can discover how much fun it makes. to play different games, with different smaller sets of a few mods and not everything at the same time: let them discover this true "diversity".

Offline RedKetchup

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Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2018, 02:46:47 PM »
first we cannot ask a producer drop 2 things in same time, only 1 , it can be random picking one or the other ... but never both in same time.
if we try to do it like a pasture and ask to drop 2x beef, 1x leather when we slaughter a cattle... it doesnt work when we put the code inside a consume-produce building. it only drop the first item on the list, the 2nd is ignored.

another thing, woodcutter in vanilla is so fast, it create a firewood bundle every "work unit", although i slowered a bit that in RK Ed , 1 bundle every "3 work units"
but even that, my lumbermill create 1 thing every "8 work units". i really cannot see the lumbermill create lumber every 1 or every 3 work units, that will be extremly fast and you will go through 200 logs in few seconds at 10X. So if i ask my lumbermill to create firewood too, it will create 1 firewood bundle every 8 work units which is up to 8X times slower than vanilla woodcutter. or 2.6X slower with RKED woodcutter.
again, it is another misjugment from developper to put the amount created in the raw material file and should has been placed inside the building itself.

i dont see a way to get around this maybe ask woodcutter to make a bundle of firewood from 1 lumber.
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Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2018, 03:48:52 PM »
I know, Red, that I can't have both logs and firewood or lumber and firewood at the same time, even if I would want to. We've discussed that before and again we have to accept the limits of the game. That's not what I suggest here. Maybe I didn't express myself well enough. Sorry for that.

I just don't see the sense in having the option to choose, if you want to produce lumber of firewood in a lumber mill. Most lumber mills have this option. I don't remember, if yours have it @RedKetchup, I only used it for lumber. This possibility to choose, just makes things complicated, without making any sense. As I've said, I have never heard of a saw mill that produces firewood ready to use. But if you've made lumber in the lumber mill, I wouldn't mind, if it could also be used to make firewood but as a second option by the woodcutter. That's a choice, that make sense in my world: you can cut firewood from the "low quality logs" not suitable for construction or processing or you can cut firewood from lumber of low quality (endpieces and things like that).

Offline galensgranny

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Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2018, 04:44:40 PM »
I like having mills that can make lumber or firewood.  I didn't have much need for lumber earlier on before more mods needing it were made, so it was great to have just one building and set of workers who could make some lumber, and then get back to producing firewood.

Offline RedKetchup

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Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2018, 04:54:31 PM »
I like having mills that can make lumber or firewood.

even if you know the lumbermill will produce firewood from 2.6X to 8X alot much slower ? (up to 800 firewood from cutter while lumbermill doing only 100 firewood?)
it wouldnt be more profitable to just add +1 worker to the cutter yard ?
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Offline galensgranny

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Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2018, 05:06:44 PM »
I like having mills that can make lumber or firewood.

even if you know the lumbermill will produce firewood from 2.6X to 8X alot much slower ? (up to 800 firewood from cutter while lumbermill doing only 100 firewood?)
it wouldnt be more profitable to just add +1 worker to the cutter yard ?
I never thought about profitability.  Do all the modded lumbermills that make both firewood and lumber produce firewood much slower, such as the one from CC?  I just added a wood chopper when more firewood sooner than later was needed.  If it is true that all those combo lumber and firewood mills produce firewood a great deal slower, then I might not be so thrilled with them.  But, I do like how they look.

Offline rkelly17

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Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2018, 06:17:58 PM »
I don't know, maybe I'm just odd or lucky (Don't say what you're thinking  :P ), but I've always been able to produce as much lumber as I need with 1 saw pit. One worker in his/her little hole in the ground seems to make a lot of lumber. And then I spread wood choppers all over the map so firewood is plentiful. Haven't built a mill yet. They do look nice though.

There was a guy near where we used to vacation who had a portable lumber mill  he parked beside his barn. He made lumber for all the locals and cottagers. If you had a tree fall or had to cut one down, he would turn it into lumber. Maybe that's the CC saw pit idea.

Offline galensgranny

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Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2018, 09:48:49 PM »
Kid's wind sawmill makes both lumber and wood, and says it is as fast as the vanilla woodcutter for firewood.  Plus is unique looking and good looking, based on the real thing he saw in a picture.  To me, looks matter a lot when I play.

http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=2185.msg43564#msg43564
I also like the CC mill that makes lumber or firewood.  It is a nice building.

One can opt to dedicate the mills to only one of the functions, if desired.
@rkelly17, that sure was a handy thing that the guy near your vacation spot did with a portable lumber mill.  I am sure the locals loved it!

Offline Gatherer

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Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2018, 12:48:34 AM »
Personally I like the idea of lumbermill producing both lumber and firewood. I'm not a player that fills a map so I don't like to build houses and other structures indefinitely. Sooner or later I have no real use for lumber other than for trading. And at that point I also have tons of other goods to sell so I need lumber even less. Switching to firewood means I don't have to look at a closed icon on top of lumbermill.
Fiat panis

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2018, 01:27:48 AM »
Yes, I've seen such portable lumbermills, too but I haven't seen, that they make firewood. But they do make a lot of waste wood, that you need to cut and split, if you want to use it ! A lot of work!  :P

I will only say one more thing to this matter. I think my opinion is clear by now. We can only agree to disagree! ;) I have some issues with buildings, where the production is set, just to make it easier for the player, without existing in that way in the "real world". These lumbermills who can also make firewood, if you don't need much lumber is one example. A workshop that can make both tools and clothes another. It is very useful at the beginning of a game, sure! But who wants to make clothes in a place, that's dirty after making tools from raw iron in "real"? I don't mind, that you can choose different products in one site. But I like, that you likely would produce these things in such a building in life.

But yes; Kid's lumbermill is absolutely great to produce firewood. I've only used it for that. I figure, that there was an old resourceful woodcutter, who was tired of his work and invented this mill, to make his work easier.  ;) Discrepancy's combined mill also looks fantastic.

I played some years yesterday. Here are some pictures:

First picture.
The settlement grows by immigration. Norseman is a slow real time aging mod and taking every nomad, is the only way to have some kind of "flow" in the game.

Now they have alcohol and most people are happy, true Norsemen. ;D One original couple never gained any stars, even if they live inside all happiness circles. They had to wait longest for their house at the beginning and never seem to forget this; still envy of their neighbors after all these years. ::) I'm pretty sure it is important for the happiness, that they are not homeless for a longer time. Maybe @Tom Sawyer; a hostel possible to build early, would make sense. As I said, you need to take nomads and it's a little bit tricky to have houses ready for them soon enough.

The happiness has dropped a bit lately. That's because I've started to expand out in the forest and they don't have enough "happiness buildings" out there yet.

Second picture
Modern times have arrived (red school). The village has a picture from a museum of a medieval village as model. (Third picture) Unfortunately you can't place them quite as criss-cross as in real, but I've tried my best. ;)

Offline RedKetchup

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Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2018, 02:13:02 AM »

But yes; Kid's lumbermill is absolutely great to produce firewood.

then it certainly doing lumber super fast...
too fast for my mod :P

but i maybe have a solution...
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Offline RedKetchup

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Re: Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2018, 02:24:51 AM »
but i maybe have a solution...

my lumbermill takes 2 log and create 4-5 lumber in 8 work units.
i can ask him to take 1 log and create 2-3 lumber in 5 work units (by lowering the lumber produce to 2-3 in the material file)

then i can ask the woodcutter to take 2 logs at the time to make firewood instead of 1 log, and i double the amount created in the firewood file.
so the wood cutter would use 2 logs and create 5-8 firewood in 5 works units (instead of 1log = 3-4)

and then ask the lumbermill to do it too.. by using 2 logs and make 5-8 firewood in 5 work units too.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 02:38:05 AM by RedKetchup »
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