Author Topic: Aging Mod Challenge  (Read 807 times)

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Offline Abandoned

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Aging Mod Challenge
« on: July 11, 2019, 03:58:44 PM »
This challenge is a carryover from the Aging Mod Debate thread found here:

http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=3063.0


I wanted to really compare the difference in gameplay between using and not using an aging mod - is it harder or easier with an aging mod?  So I played 2 maps using in the same map seed and map settings.  I used Labor Window and RK minimized Status mods on both.  On the 2nd map I use my One Year is One Year Alt Abandoned mod made by Voeille.   I used no other mods, no debug, no nomad attractors.

The map seed and settings for both:  Map #79569944  Valley, Small, Fair, disasters Off, Easy Start

Both maps started with 6 Homes and 6 Families =  a population of 22, 12 adults and 10 children
Both maps started with sheep, wheat seeds, and potato seeds  (plus orchard seeds- oops unknown)
Both maps started with the same starting supplies.

I played each map until the end of year 5 at game speed 2x and 5x and here are my findings:

Map 1 vanilla aging - total population end of year 1-5  = 26, 29, 30, 39, 46   16 Families in 14 Homes
Map 1 vanilla aging- educated adult workers year 1-5  = 12, 14, 18, 26, 28   (They grow up so fast)

Map 2  aging mod   - total population end of year 1-5  =  26, 29, 29, 30, 30   Still 6 Families in 6 Homes
Map 2  aging mod   - educated adult workers year 1-5  = 12, 12, 12, 12, 12   ( 1 or 2 years yet for 1 more)

Conclusion - vanilla aging much easier - plenty of workers, town grew and was more productive, at the end of year 5, I had 7 laborers and 1 builder.  Map moved along at steady pace - game can always be paused or game speed reduced.  The map with the aging mod was more difficult because of the lack of worker, micro-managing between jobs was necessary, there were often shortages, at the end of  year 5, I had 1 laborer and no builder.  Playing with a nomad attractor would provide workers but they would be uneducated and production would be reduce. 

The Challenge - show why and how you think an aging mod is easier.  Do that in one of 2 ways = either by 1) playing a map using my exact setting with an aging mod of your choice for the same amount of years, or 2) play two maps as I did, one with and one without aging mod using map seed and settings of your choice for as long as you want.  Either way use no other mods accept UI changes and one aging mod.  No Debug and No Nomads.  Are you up to the Challenge?

It will be interesting to hear your results and/or opinions.

Offline theonlywanderer

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Re: Aging Mod Challenge
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2019, 08:10:25 PM »
Doesn't seem like an aging mod should affect difficulty, just affects the time it takes to progress.  Basically everything just takes longer to happen.   Instead of spending however many years micro managing every single task, you spend multiple times that.   Again, that's not difficulty, it's just more of the same repetitive stuff.   Since I've done a few extreme starts like adam & eve and other misc ones, it's just something I prefer not to do anymore.   I didn't have any problem progressing, it just takes so much longer to get going even at 10x speed.    I can't imagine doing the same thing for even longer before boredom sets in.

I think bannies age 5 years per in game year, so you set aging 1:1 and now you increase the time it takes to progress by 5x.  That's a lot of extra time, even at 10x speed.

Offline Abandoned

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Re: Aging Mod Challenge
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2019, 09:34:29 PM »
@theonlywanderer Thanks for reply. Vanilla difficulty levels easy, medium, and hard, are based on number of people, buildings, and resources.  With aging mods growth of population and town and production is slower.  With less people it is reasonable to say it is more difficult to progress, or as you say - it is more time consuming to progress.  It is not easier by any means - but it is different.

Offline grammycat

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Re: Aging Mod Challenge
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2019, 07:14:50 AM »
If you use Steam, there is a mod there named slowage which ages your bannies 2.5 years instead of 5 every game year.  It might also be worth testing for your comparisons.  Also, it can be enabled  or disabled during gameplay at any time with no bad effects.

Offline Abandoned

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Re: Aging Mod Challenge
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2019, 07:31:23 AM »
@grammycat  That is interesting, thanks, I did not know that.  I do not use steam but maybe you or someone else who uses it would like to try my challenge to show comparison. 

Offline theonlywanderer

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Re: Aging Mod Challenge
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2019, 09:22:49 PM »
It's only more difficult if you are trying to get the same achievements that were based on 5x aging, which is kind of unfair to do when comparing the difference.   You would need to make that allowance in the achievements as well.   IE...1:1 aging... change the 300 pop after 100 years, to 60 pop after 100 years.   This would put that achievement back on equal ground for comparison.   If you don't allow for this, of course, anything you do to the game with a mod can alter the odds one way or the other to be easier or more difficult.  Anything you do challenge wise has to accommodate that 5x difference to be equal comparison.

If we take achievements out of it, progressing slower cannot be considered more difficult.   Lets say with 5x aging, it takes 5 years of micro managing jobs until you get a somewhat stable population.   Well, with 1:1 aging, it now takes 25 years of micro managing those very same jobs.  Everything just slows down, it doesn't get any more difficult.  If you were switching somebody between tools and clothes for 5 years, it's the same exact process, only now it's for 25 years.   How is that any more difficult?  Yes, far more time consuming, but not really more difficult.

Kind of like a production line worker doing a particular job, the boss says they need to work another hour.  Their job didn't change, it's not any more difficult, they just have to do it for another hour that day.

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Aging Mod Challenge
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2019, 02:44:07 AM »
I think, real time aging can make it harder as well as easier depending on circumstances. Harder to get more people in early game but easier to manage things later. With vanilla speed aging it can become a problem under tough conditions in a more complex mod. You have to build new houses and to get enough resources 5 times faster. If you cannot keep up with their fast aging, your population "burns out" if that works in English. And of course, real time aging was not meant to make it harder or easier, just more realistic. If I remember back, 1:1 Aging by Gordon Dry was the first mod I added together with that cold realism tweak. :)

Offline Abandoned

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Re: Aging Mod Challenge
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2019, 06:16:40 AM »
 :) @Tom Sawyer , I think it may have been your North mod that got me liking the aging mods to begin with.  :)  With or without the game offers challenges to play.  I find with vanilla aging I pause the game more often and for longer periods of time and play at lower game speed.   I find with aging mod I do not have to have those little icons all over the map when work stops due to limits or lack of materials and I can keep an eye on everything just fine.

@theonlywanderer It is not only the speed that changes the game. I find that with vanilla aging I rarely if ever had to micro-manage between jobs, also I rarely if ever had to accepted nomads which are uneducated and produce less so simply multiply production x5 is not quite accurate.  I like the speed of 1:1 aging mod for storytelling but I also like vanilla speed for other maps.

Thank you both for repyling  :)

Offline Kristahfer

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Re: Aging Mod Challenge
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2019, 11:10:53 AM »
@Abandoned - My oh my do I love following your stories. I have been trying to build up a med map around the idea of The Hudson Bay Company Trading Posts using the plantation stockade and all log type buildings. I am just not good enough yet, (after close to 4 years, :D .) Maybe when you have nothing else to do, as if  :-\, you might consider a story around that idea. One thing I find missing though is more log style buildings. Kind of limited. Oh well.

Thanks For The Great Stories
Looking Forward To More.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 11:17:47 AM by Kristahfer »

Offline Abandoned

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Re: Aging Mod Challenge
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2019, 12:09:18 PM »
 :) @Kristahfer Thank you so much, your comments could not have come at a better time.  I was actually considering not continuing storytelling.  I have begun a new story that will be a series of maps heading south, after that I will be heading north and most certainly will do a Hudson Bay Trading Company story.  :) It is now on my list.  Thank you for the suggestion.  :)

Offline theonlywanderer

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Re: Aging Mod Challenge
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2019, 02:27:42 PM »
Harder to get more people in early game but easier to manage things later.

If they set a goal of wanting more people early in the game, well, that kind of defeats the purpose of using the 1:1 mod to slow things down, so why would they even use the mod?   You can't use that to justify saying the 1:1 mod makes the game harder.   It will indeed take longer to build up a population, but it's not any harder, just more time consuming.

real time aging was not meant to make it harder or easier, just more realistic.

Exactly.  It only becomes "harder" when people set goals not in line with 1:1 aging.  Any challenge set for 1:1 aging can be duplicated with 5x aging with the proper allowance for the speed difference.   Otherwise it's not a proper comparison of difficulty.

Offline theonlywanderer

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Re: Aging Mod Challenge
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2019, 03:02:24 PM »
It is not only the speed that changes the game. I find that with vanilla aging I rarely if ever had to micro-manage between jobs, also I rarely if ever had to accepted nomads which are uneducated and produce less so simply multiply production x5 is not quite accurate.  I like the speed of 1:1 aging mod for storytelling but I also like vanilla speed for other maps.

If you start with 5 families in vanilla aging, you won't have to micro manage very long, but you will for a bit until the population grows.   You have no alternative other then to switch people around in order to get things done.    With the 1:1 mod, you will do exactly the same thing only for much longer since your population grows 5x slower.   How is doing the exact same thing considered more difficult? 

The balance for food, clothing, tools, and fuel per person remains the same for either speed.  They use the tools the same, they use clothes the same, need the same amount of food per year.    But, it could be argued that 1:1 is actually easier since vanilla production was based on 5x aging.   The blacksmith still produces at the same ratio for vanilla.  Therefore, your tool availability will be much greater for a 1:1 growing population.   Same with the tailor and clothes.   It's far easier for production to keep up with a 1:1 population since it was designed around 5:1.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 03:05:53 PM by theonlywanderer »

Offline Abandoned

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Re: Aging Mod Challenge
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2019, 03:31:42 PM »
Good points @theonlywanderer thanks  :)  I don't have a problem with either, but vanilla game difficulty levels - easy, medium, and hard are based on more people and resources is easier than less people and resources.  Vanilla aging produces more people sooner.  :)

Offline theonlywanderer

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Re: Aging Mod Challenge
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2019, 04:09:16 PM »
Easy, medium and hard levels are nothing more then starting conditions of people and supplies.   They do not affect anything else like speed, production, resources found on the map, nothing else.   I don't know why you keep bringing that up.

If producing more people sooner is their goal, why would they use the 1:1 mod?

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Easy, medium, hard is proportionally the same in vanilla as with the 1:1 aging mod.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 04:16:15 PM by theonlywanderer »

Offline Abandoned

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Re: Aging Mod Challenge
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2019, 08:49:24 PM »
I will not repeat what has already been said, but the starting conditions are called easy start, medium start, and hard start, because more starting people, building, and resources make it an easier start, and less starting people, buildings, and resources make it harder.  That is pretty easy to understand.

Perhaps @theonlywanderer you will tell us which start condition you prefer to use, easy, medium, or hard, and why.  Also you could tell if you are using an aging mod, which one, and why.

 

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