It's well known that an uneducated chopper can produce but 3 firewood from a log, where an educated chopper gets 4. But I've never seen much discussion about the effects of a lack of education on the other professions.
For example, I've never had an uneducated blacksmith before. I was just watching my brand new dunce smith making iron tools. Consumption per normal, one iron, one log. Output? A single iron tool, where from an educated smith you get 2. Is this correct? If so it is huge. Its not just that the output is half as fast, but also the consumption of resources is double. Makes making iron tools look like a big loser.
What are the effects of education on the other professions?
gonna try to tell you bro : it is from the numbers in the text files (.rsc)
the int_low = uneducated , the int_high = educated
farmer crop :
int _lowCreateCount = 20;
int _highCreateCount = 28;
farmer orchard :
int _lowCreateCount = 50;
int _highCreateCount = 65;
fisherman:
int _lowCreateCount = 5;
int _highCreateCount = 7;
herbalist:
int _lowCreateCount = 2;
int _highCreateCount = 3;
tavern:
int _lowCreateCount = 7;
int _highCreateCount = 10;
hunter venison:
int _lowCreateCount = 160;
int _highCreateCount = 200;
pasture beef/mutton:
int _lowCreateCount = 160;
int _highCreateCount = 200;
pasture leather: (same for hunters)
int _lowCreateCount = 4;
int _highCreateCount = 6;
pasture wool:
int _lowCreateCount = 6;
int _highCreateCount = 6;
pasture chicken:
int _lowCreateCount = 4;
int _highCreateCount = 6;
pasture eggs:
int _lowCreateCount = 6;
int _highCreateCount = 6;
woodcutter:
int _lowCreateCount = 3;
int _highCreateCount = 4;
blacksmith tools:
int _lowCreateCount = 1;
int _highCreateCount = 2;
gatherer :
int _lowCreateCount = 16;
int _highCreateCount = 22;
miner coal
int _lowCreateCount = 3;
int _highCreateCount = 4;
mining iron:
int _lowCreateCount = 1;
int _highCreateCount = 2;
mining stones:
int _lowCreateCount = 1;
int _highCreateCount = 2;
forester wood:
int _lowCreateCount = 2;
int _highCreateCount = 3;
tailor:
int _lowCreateCount = 1;
int _highCreateCount = 2;
did i missed something ?
Ouch! :o :D
Nope, that's pretty much it! Thanks, mon ami.
Now I'm thinking that all I need to do to make Banished more of a challenge is never to build any schools!
These are brutal reductions. Not only is production slower, but some of them are serious drains on resources, particularly logs.
You only get 2 logs from a tree, not 3. You only get 1 tool from a log, not 2. And of course the firewood thing. Logs become much more of a limiting factor. At least foresters don't plant slower.
Right? They don't, or do they?
Also, a 120-tile farm no longer can be relied on for 840 food. Instead, 600 will be the new max.
no you cannot tell a forester to plant slower or faster with education or not.
Very useful dialogue, gents. Solved a shilly-shally problem for me. As an educator myself, I've always felt kind of guilty not building a school, but the personnel restrictions kind of militate against it. "Damn the torpedoes. Full speed ahead." (Admiral Farragut at the Battle of Lake Erie.)
Next day: My, my, what a difference. I built a school as soon as it made sense and it could be built from available resources. Production essentially doubled and things are running well. I guess uneducated boobs just fall all over themselves and make all kinds of mistakes. Ran present city for four hours so far, and things are actually looking up in year 10.
Here is a summary of the effects of an uneducated workforce I posted over on the Reddit sub. I though it would be good to have this information here on WOB.
The effect of an uneducated workforce vs an educated one really is a massive productivity hit (these numbers are without mods):
Firewood and especially tools are very bad. This is because there is are two compounding penalties, one for trees=>logs (and surface rocks=>iron), and then ones for logs=>firewood and for logs/iron=>tools, as follows:
With uneducated workers you get only 2 logs per tree rather than 3 with educated.
With uneducated workers you get only
2 1 iron per rock rather than
3 2 with educated.
With uneducated workers you get only 3 firewood per log, so that means one tree can yield only 6 firewood, rather than 12 with educated workers from the same inputs in the same amount of time;
your firewood production is cut in half with uneducated workers.With uneducated workers you get only 1 tool per log+iron rather than 2 with educated, so that means with uneducated workers 1 tree + 1 iron rock=>
2 tools 1 tool plus one log leftover, rather than
6 tools 4 tools plus one log leftover with educated workers from the same inputs in the same amount of time;
your tool production is cut by 3/4s with uneducated workers. This is the biggest hit of all.
Since you also get
2 1 stone/surface rock instead of
3 2, your stone production (from surface rocks) will be
reduced by 1/3 cut in half.
Other hits:
Uneducated farmers and fishers produce 5 food/square rather than 7. So you will get 600 food/season from a 120-square farm rather than 840 (29% less food)
Uneducated hunters produce 160 food and 4 leather/deer rather than 200 and 6 (20% less food and 33% less leather). Uneducated herdsmen have the same penalties (except that, unaccountably, uneducated shepherds get the same amount of wool from sheep that educated ones do. I suppose that is due to the fact that the sheep themselves are not less intelligent, just the shepherds).
Uneducated tailors produce 1 coat for 2 wool/leather, rather than 2 coats. So, since your leather production is reduced by 1/3, this means
your clothing production will be cut by 2/3s (except for wool coats, which are only cut in half), just as bad as tools.
Mines and quarries total capacity is halved, and output speed will be halved as well, in addition to increased chances for uneducated miners and stonecutters to be crushed by falling rocks.
Uneducated gatherers collect 16 food per gathering action, rather than 22 (so, a gatherers hut with uneducated gatherers will produce 28% less food than one with educated gatherers).
Uneducated brewers produce 7 ale from a batch of input (30 fruit, 60 berries, 100 wheat) rather than 10 (30% less ale)
But other than that, uneducated workers are just great. /s =]
Don't get me wrong, it is quite possible to have a successful town without building schools. In fact in my current town I am trying for tenure with a 100% uneducated workforce http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=726.0. But the game is completely different, and far more challenging (read: difficult), with no schools.
Many thanks to
@Nilla and
@RedKetchup, who got me started thinking about the effects of a lack of education, and who provided me with important raw data.
Thanks for this. Often the stumbling block is trying to get enough stone to build a school. I would have thought in a primitive society the school house would be more wood and less stone.
Quote from: irrelevant on January 30, 2015, 01:39:29 PM
Here is a summary of the effects of an uneducated workforce I posted over on the Reddit sub. I though it would be good to have this information here on WOB.
. . . .
With uneducated workers you get only 2 logs per tree and 2 iron per rock rather than 3 with educated.
. . . .
Since you also get 2 stone/surface rock instead of 3, your stone production (from surface rocks) will be reduced by 1/3.
I knew that educated gave more production and always get a school up ASAP (my goal is before the first child born in the settlement turns 10, but sometimes I can get the youngest original child in school, too), but this shows why even resource gathering seems easier after most people are educated. Thanks for the numbers,
@irrelevant.
@rkelly17 You're belatedly welcome!
Quote from: irrelevant on January 30, 2015, 01:39:29 PM
...
With uneducated workers you get only ... 2 iron per rock rather than 3 with educated.
...
Since you also get 2 stone/surface rock instead of 3, your stone production (from surface rocks) will be reduced by 1/3.
...
Are you sure?
With educated laborers using Collect Stone and Collect Iron, I get 2 stone/surface rock and 2 iron/surface ore block.
Quote from: Brugle on March 06, 2015, 04:48:58 PM
Quote from: irrelevant on January 30, 2015, 01:39:29 PM
...
With uneducated workers you get only ... 2 iron per rock rather than 3 with educated.
...
Since you also get 2 stone/surface rock instead of 3, your stone production (from surface rocks) will be reduced by 1/3.
...
Are you sure?
With educated laborers using Collect Stone and Collect Iron, I get 2 stone/surface rock and 2 iron/surface ore block.
@Brugle I just spent 10 minutes following my laborers around, and you are absolutely right! And uneducated get just 1. Thanks for speaking up!
So the uneducated penalties are even worse than I thought.
A supply chain of uneducated workers will make
75% fewer iron tools in the same amount of time and with the same inputs as educated workers.
I usually play on medium disasters off, and my beginning game is basically thus:
Year 0 (pause before doing anything)
Plan your town, making use of road tool to determine initial placement of my marketplace(tends to be the center of any community).
Place tailor, workshop, woodcutter, school near marketplace then pause construction on all of these. Place hunters so your circle will be just shy of main roads spokeing off of market. Place gatherers and foresters at a crossroads made by your hunting cabin. Place barn and 5x5 stockpile appropriately nearby. Pause all those constructions.
Place boarding house just outside of the circle made by your forest industries, and within the circle made by your yet to be built marketplace, and pause construction.
Plan and place first permanent set of homes, and pause construction.
Time to roll!
To be done by end of year 1:
2) build gatherers hut and foresters.
3) build boarding house
4) build a woodcutter and nearby 6x6 stockpile for firewood.
To be done by year 2:
1) Build barn and hunter's lodge near the forester/gatherer
2) build tailor's and workshop.
3) Start building school, but pause construction once all materials are on-site.
Afterwards:
Build marketplace, assign 1-2 vendors to clear out most of your barns, then (probably) remove your original barn and stockpile.
Build an herbalist.
Begin building permanent homes.
I try to keep at least 2 laborers and 2 builders operating through this process.
Once I reach 19 working adults, I finish the school and assign a teacher.
At this point, my adults have the following jobs:
2 laborers
2 builders
4 gatherers
3 hunters
1 woodcutter
1 tailor
1 blacksmith
1 vendor
2 foresters
1 herbalist
1 teacher
And I'm off to a solid start and will usually have 0 uneducated by year 16-20 or so depending on how long my firsters live.
Quote from: irrelevant on March 08, 2015, 01:20:01 PM
So the uneducated penalties are even worse than I thought.
A supply chain of uneducated workers will make 75% fewer iron tools in the same amount of time and with the same inputs as educated workers.
Remember the challenge that had all uneducated workers and stone houses? I forget the name now. ::) Anyway, I just about went nuts dealing with the constant tool shortage despite having 2 or 3 times the normal number of blacksmiths. This puts a number to the reason. Holy (expletive deleted)!
Quote from: Chon Waen on March 08, 2015, 10:29:11 PM
I usually play on medium disasters off, and my beginning game is basically thus:
Year 0 (pause before doing anything)
Plan your town, making use of road tool to determine initial placement of my marketplace(tends to be the center of any community).
Place tailor, workshop, woodcutter, school near marketplace then pause construction on all of these. Place hunters so your circle will be just shy of main roads spokeing off of market. Place gatherers and foresters at a crossroads made by your hunting cabin. Place barn and 5x5 stockpile appropriately nearby. Pause all those constructions.
Place boarding house just outside of the circle made by your forest industries, and within the circle made by your yet to be built marketplace, and pause construction.
Plan and place first permanent set of homes, and pause construction.
Time to roll!
To be done by end of year 1:
2) build gatherers hut and foresters.
3) build boarding house
4) build a woodcutter and nearby 6x6 stockpile for firewood.
To be done by year 2:
1) Build barn and hunter's lodge near the forester/gatherer
2) build tailor's and workshop.
3) Start building school, but pause construction once all materials are on-site.
Afterwards:
Build marketplace, assign 1-2 vendors to clear out most of your barns, then (probably) remove your original barn and stockpile.
Build an herbalist.
Begin building permanent homes.
I try to keep at least 2 laborers and 2 builders operating through this process.
Once I reach 19 working adults, I finish the school and assign a teacher.
At this point, my adults have the following jobs:
2 laborers
2 builders
4 gatherers
3 hunters
1 woodcutter
1 tailor
1 blacksmith
1 vendor
2 foresters
1 herbalist
1 teacher
And I'm off to a solid start and will usually have 0 uneducated by year 16-20 or so depending on how long my firsters live.
I will normally try to get a school built in time for the oldest child to become a student. I will accept the delay in getting additional laborers; I'd rather have that than any uneducated workers dragging things down. Seems like if I have even one uneducated worker, that person winds up becoming my blacksmith! ;D
Quote from: irrelevant on March 09, 2015, 08:28:18 AM
I will normally try to get a school built in time for the oldest child to become a student. I will accept the delay in getting additional laborers; I'd rather have that than any uneducated workers dragging things down. Seems like if I have even one uneducated worker, that person winds up becoming my blacksmith! ;D
On Hard and Medium starts my goal is usually the first child born in the settlement goes to school. At the beginning I don't find that an uneducated blacksmith is a killer because the need for tools is low. My early blacksmith and tailor only work part time anyway to keep up with demand. The trick I use to get an educated blacksmith/tailor is that I don't build a house near the workplace until after people start graduating from school. Then the game takes care of assignments. The generation of uneducated (3-10 people, depending on seed) usually ends up living in the forest village or on farms. It does slow things down at the beginning, but by the time it gets crucial to maximize production things have evened out. I do sometimes get a 10 or 12 year-old uneducated teacher, though, in the beginning.
Interesting that with all the penalties for uneducated workers, two professions for which there is no difference between educated and uneducated are "teacher" and "doctor!" ;)
The way I look at the delay a school causes in getting new workers, you're going to get the delay no matter when you build your first school, so it's better to get it out of the way early. I don't mind starting off slow, but getting the delay in year 4-5 might be irksome.
I agree with
@irrelevant. I look at the age of the children and try to have the school ready in time for all. Oft is it the first building. Sometimes one or two 9 years old escape school. In such a case I try to build a house for that uneducated directly at the school (teacher) or in the forest, where the harm is less than elsewhere. I also find the delay, getting no new labourers until the first student graduate, is less disturbing at the beginning.
My early game is similar, but very different LOL...
I do not plan on a grid, so I don't really like to commit locations early on - usually my hamlets are slightly drawn out early on and grow together slowly to become one town, terrain permitting.
First, I scout the (larger) area and blueprint
* perfect fishing spots (radius!)
* viable trade port spots (not conflicting with fishing radii)
* other waterbound locations (e.g. saw- and grain-mills)
Before really starting, I count my kids - that gives me a number when to build the school (if I'm lucky, I can wait 2 or 3 years). In any case school must be up before 1st kid is ready to enroll.
Build 1 stone house, which is good for the first, maybe into the second winter.
Then 2 foresters (clean out radius for rock and iron), 1 woodcutter, 1 fishing hut, plus 1 gatherer/hunter (w/o seeds) or 2 fields (w/ seeds).
Slowly add houses to start the baby boom.
Blacksmith must be up before initial tools supply is running out.
Add 1 herbalist.
Slowly starting to pile in materials for the first trade post (committing location) and setting aside some basic trade goods (food, tools, fuel).
Set a market location to encompass all current buildings, start construction (should be about finished by the time the first trader shows up)...
Workers still get shifted around a lot, depending on season and/or demand. A tailor comes much later, as well as roads (I don't build pre-emptive 'gridded' roads, I rather connect the hamlets later and on demand...
That is (roughly) my plan during the first 3 to 5 years...
I've posted a blog on how I start out: http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=808.0
All critique graciously ignored. ;D
"No one has ever built a monument to a critic"
Jan Sebelius
@rkelly17 nice outline for year 1! Definitely a good guide for those less experienced. I'll probably stick with my personal methods because its what I'm most familiar with and it works for me. And yeah, I get what you mean, similar but different.
Quote from: Chon Waen on March 09, 2015, 03:33:41 PM
@rkelly17 nice outline for year 1! Definitely a good guide for those less experienced. I'll probably stick with my personal methods because its what I'm most familiar with and it works for me. And yeah, I get what you mean, similar but different.
My philosophy is to do what works. Each of us has a unique play-style that we have perfected (well, sort of perfected) and which works for us. What could be better than that?
Quote from: rkelly17 on March 10, 2015, 09:41:25 AMMy philosophy is to do what works.
Indeed... If there was only one formula to "success" - what a horrible thought. :o
Quote from: Paeng on March 10, 2015, 09:52:05 AM
Quote from: rkelly17 on March 10, 2015, 09:41:25 AMMy philosophy is to do what works.
Indeed... If there was only one formula to "success" - what a horrible thought. :o
Right on. We've been there before, or at least those of us who've played SimCity 4 Deluxe for a while. Millions of players but not one same style.