Figured we could probably use 2nd trading port, as population is around 150 now and the one merchant never seems to bring all that much useful. But have a gander at the blow picture. The trading port happens to be perfect there. One notch to the left, and it can't be placed, so it's perfect with where the road happens to be. However, on the opposite bank there is a fishery. Will placing the trading port there effectively give less water to the fishery, or is this based on the initial distribution of water? Is the game complex enough to take the TP into account, and thus lower the efficiency of the fishermen?
Generally speaking, I have noticed no such effect. I have had situations with the TP next to the fishery, across from it, and in completely unrelated spots and noticed nothing deleterious.
Well, I have monitored my fishing lodges quite extensively, but it is hard to put any figure on this question because of the constant movement of the peeps - eating, herbalist, idling and so on... I collected data over several years, with obstructions and without obstructions - my opinion is that any obstruction within the lodge circle reduces the yield. However - rather marginally so... it is not a matter of starving or not ;)
In my mind it is much more important to find the "sweet" spots - to me, any 4-man-lodge that brings in less than 1.600/year is no good. For that you also need to have a barn and the housing as close as possible to the lodge - close meaning really in the immediate vicinity, not 10 or 20 tiles away... plus solid support from your traders or vendors, to empty the barn regularly...
Catching as much open water as possible -
(http://imagizer.imageshack.com/img674/7061/W8DeFe.jpg)
Just for the record, to get an idea what to aim for ;) - a perfect sweet spot can net you a maximum of ~3.200...
Usually I aim for all my lodges combined to net around 2.000 each (so individually something between 1.600 and 2.400).
Sounds good. I've placed it there now, but can't say I've noticed much of a difference. But will keep an eye on it. Fishing yield seems to vary a fair bit. It's kind of hard to justify having four people there getting 1500 food a year when you can stick two of them as farmers and get the same, at least in good years.
Re: farming btw, do you guys really get by with only 1 farmer on what I see are the popular size of 15x8?
I've used a fair bit of those farms, and unless it's a really good year, usually they can't get it all before cold sets in and kills the crops.
Edit: this got cross-posted with Paeng.
Quote from: Pangaea on September 18, 2014, 06:11:30 AMIt's kind of hard to justify having four people there getting 1500 food a year when you can stick two of them as farmers and get the same, at least in good years.
That's the point - in good years... fishing is pretty solid all year round... also consider the small footprint (even including a barn and two houses)... well set up, 1 fisherman brings in as much food as 1 farmer - looking at it over several years.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.com/img746/5200/JResjp.jpg)
Quote from: Paeng on September 18, 2014, 06:16:54 AM
That's the point - in good years... fishing is pretty solid all year round... also consider the small footprint (even including a barn and two houses)... well set up, 1 fisherman brings in as much food as 1 farmer - looking at it over several years.
I'm with
@Paeng on this one. In a well-placed fishing dock (
@Paeng has given a fine demonstration of what that means) each fisher performs as well as a farmer in a 9X9 field in an ideal year and the fishing dock takes otherwise unusable space on a river bend where you often cannot build a trading post. In a good spot it is not unusual to have 2500 fish per year--pretty much what 4 farmers can do on 4 9X9 fields. The difference is in which food categories are filled: protein (meat, fish, eggs, nuts) vs. vegetables or grains.
As to whether or not bridges and TPs impede fishing I am agnostic. Somewhere I read that they do, but I've never checked it out myself.
I went to read the rsc files involved, and discovered that we are missing one, and perhaps two, of the files that we may need to understand how fishing works. I posted the one missing file as a bug in Beta 1.04 Modding Kit, on SRS forum. The missing file is Template\PopulationFish.rsc.
Interested stats
@Paeng. With numbers like that, I can agree it's well worth it. Fishing is also sort of a safety against a poor farming year, when you sometimes lose up to 50%. However, with farming at full tilt, it's possible to get 840 from a single farmer tending a 15x8. Unfortunately it doesn't take much for those numbers to go awry, especially with anything other than those pesky beans.
Think I've had ~2800 from a fishing dock before, but those kind of numbers are rare. 1000-1500 is much less impressive, and almost feels like a waste.
Quote from: Pangaea on September 18, 2014, 08:20:32 AM
Think I've had ~2800 from a fishing dock before, but those kind of numbers are rare. 1000-1500 is much less impressive, and almost feels like a waste.
Unless I was desperate for food I'd move a dock that was bringing less than 1500. Of course, not every map is full of good spots.
I just thought of another place to use fishing docks in otherwise unusable space: landlocked lakes where merchants can't go.
I'm not one for Trading post spamming, so that's not an issue for me, so could put them just about anywhere really. Did find a pretty sweet spot, thankfully, that is much better than the one that is only brining in aroudn 1500 despite having houses and a barn nearby. This is the first year with the infrastructure nearby, and it brought in ~2500 :)
Spots like that are hard to come by on this map, though.
Of course, it could be that the TP does indeed cut into the fishing for that dock that only yields 1500 now. I didn't pay close attention before, and at times cut down on fishermen due to needs elsewhere, but I think it was at least sometimes pulling in 1800 before (in fairness, it did get 1674 this last year, which isn't great, but not 1000-bad either).
euh... 3100 fish for 1 dock... you use the +50% cheating fish mod ?
In the map I just posted there was an enticing fishing location...
Not going to play the map, at least not now, but I wonder what that would fetch.
e: Oi! I found another one, which is probably even better :)
Quote from: RedKetchup on September 18, 2014, 09:56:48 AMeuh... 3100 fish for 1 dock... you use the +50% cheating fish mod?
No! I don't use
any of these type of cheat mods... Can't stand them - I like to
play my way out of trouble.
Quote from: Pangaea on September 18, 2014, 03:22:54 PMOi! I found another one, which is probably even better
;D You'll see - you develop an eye for those spots... sooner or later you'll find that every map has many of them... even if they don't look like it at first sight...
Quote from: Pangaea on September 18, 2014, 03:22:54 PMOi! I found another one, which is probably even better :)
One other thing I'd like to mention - when you find (or expect) a hut to give lousy yield, it is often worth it to just reduce the number of workers... if 4 men bring in barely 1000 fish, you'll often find that 2 (or at most 3) men bring in almost as much... it's seldom worth to keep up all 4.
Quote from: Paeng on September 18, 2014, 09:09:07 PM
Quote from: Pangaea on September 18, 2014, 03:22:54 PMOi! I found another one, which is probably even better :)
One other thing I'd like to mention - when you find (or expect) a hut to give lousy yield, it is often worth it to just reduce the number of workers... if 4 men bring in barely 1000 fish, you'll often find that 2 (or at most 3) men bring in almost as much... it's seldom worth to keep up all 4.
Interesting, I'll keep that in mind :)
I've done the numbers on the 2-3 fishing docks in my game over quite a few years now.
Across 9 years, the good one that I posted about earlier (that got 2500 one year, later a top of 2646) has an average of 2129. A horror 1398 year drags it down a bit, perhaps due to heavy building. The initial dock that was across from the TP now has an average of 1613. A new one that looks pretty good has disappointed me with only 1609 average over 5 years. But that is partly explained by the impossibility of having a barn right by, so they have to walk more back and forth.
2100 on average is pretty decent though, so I'm fairly pleased with that. It's really difficult to find spots like that though, unless the map is very special.
Year One Two Three
-----------------------------
24 1797 ~1500
25 1902 1668
26 2529 1674
27 1398 1452
28 1992 1488 1485
29 2457 1530 1764
30 2646 1770 1593
31 2283 1656 1440
32 2160 1782 1764
----------------------------
Avg 2129 1613 1609
In the little orchard experiment I eventually set up a fishing dock in a good spot. It got very good yields most of the 10 years it was run. Average was 2736 per year, with a max of 3060. What appears to be very important is not just access to much water, but having houses and a barn nearby (and preferably a stockpile for firewood), with vendors who make sure the barn isn't full. I noticed that in the poorer years (lowest was 2220), they had to walk farther to deliver fish. It's also easier to keep fishermen in the nearest houses if there is nothing else going on in the area. Add in a market or just about anything really, and suddenly the fishermen may be living far away, particularly during building sprees.
Quote from: Pangaea on September 20, 2014, 07:08:40 PM
In the little orchard experiment I eventually set up a fishing dock in a good spot. It got very good yields most of the 10 years it was run. Average was 2736 per year, with a max of 3060. What appears to be very important is not just access to much water, but having houses and a barn nearby (and preferably a stockpile for firewood), with vendors who make sure the barn isn't full. I noticed that in the poorer years (lowest was 2220), they had to walk farther to deliver fish. It's also easier to keep fishermen in the nearest houses if there is nothing else going on in the area. Add in a market or just about anything really, and suddenly the fishermen may be living far away, particularly during building sprees.
Absolutely! I did some experiments some months ago and the existence of houses and a barn very close made a huge difference in output. In another map I had a dock that theoretically had an almost ideal location on the water but a hill prevented placing the houses and barns closer than about 10-15 squares away. That dock never produced as much as one in a lesser location with houses and barn across the road.
Interesting that collocation counts. Some of the villages I've built have been better when things are very crowded together. I sometimes wonder of the inhabitants have sheep genes.
Oh my... if only it could be properly supported by infrastructure.
It's actually possible to place one house out there, but a barn can't be done.
need also some space for the bridges :)
Could actually fit in a bridge to the left bank, but it will still lose some production due to having to cross it each time they catch a fish.
I keep trying out maps and testing mods instead of actually playing. What is wrong with me?! :D
Quote from: Pangaea on September 22, 2014, 04:35:13 PM
Could actually fit in a bridge to the left bank, but it will still lose some production due to having to cross it each time they catch a fish.
I keep trying out maps and testing mods instead of actually playing. What is wrong with me?! :D
I'd say you are normal for this group. ;D
Quote from: rkelly17 on September 23, 2014, 09:34:28 AM
Quote from: Pangaea on September 22, 2014, 04:35:13 PM
Could actually fit in a bridge to the left bank, but it will still lose some production due to having to cross it each time they catch a fish.
I keep trying out maps and testing mods instead of actually playing. What is wrong with me?! :D
I'd say you are normal for this group. ;D
Haha, good to know. I'm feeling enough of an outsider as it is :D
Interesting. I copied an old save from my main town over to the banishedkit version of the game, and after a few false tries managed to get the bug mod working. It does indeed look like trading posts and even bridges 'steal' water from the fishing dock. I actually suspected bridges did, so put them up a little distance away from the later fishing docks in that save. Now there is proof.
Very interesting. Exactly what we suspected.
Quote from: Pangaea on October 03, 2014, 01:14:37 PM
Interesting. I copied an old save from my main town over to the banishedkit version of the game, and after a few false tries managed to get the bug mod working. It does indeed look like trading posts and even bridges 'steal' water from the fishing dock. I actually suspected bridges did, so put them up a little distance away from the later fishing docks in that save. Now there is proof.
Thanks,
@Pangaea. Lately I've been building a bridge just on the outside of the fishing circle to remind me not to build too close. With your screenshot it looks like this may actually be a good idea. Of course, sometimes one has to fudge a bit to get the layout to work, but with this info we can weigh the advantages and disadvantages.
The picture also confirms that there are some issues with "water." The structures blocking the "water" probably arises from the same base issue that gives us underwater walking deer, sheep, cows and chickens. In reality, of course, bridges and docks are often especially good places to fish since they are structures that give shelter and attract food. I remember one fishing trip where we were trolling under a railroad bridge and got multiple hook-ups every time a train went over.
Instead of starting a new thread, I'll post here as it's at least loosely related.
In the first map I tried, the 1008 seed, there was an excellent fishing spot nearby. I noticed that each time fish was caught, it led to 11 fish. "That's a lot" I thought, but figured I didn't remember what it was the last time I played. On the current map, I placed a fishing spot at a lake nearby the starting place. Lakes are rarely great spots. This time they got 7 fish each time. Further south there was a fine spot in a 180 degree turn in the river. Here they got 10 fish each time.
This must be why you get more fish the more water the fishing dock has. It's not that they get fish more often, but simply that they get more fish each time they catch some.
Doesn't really matter much in terms of what you do in-game -- fishing docks are still best the more water they have access to -- but I found it interesting nonetheless.
Do keep in mind the earlier findings, though, and don't place bridges or trade posts near the fishing dock, impacting on their catchment area (yellow circle).
Well, that certainly explains why my fishing docks are such flops. One of my foibles has been to put a bridge hard against them and put a trading post nearby. I was trying to shorten the land paths, but I see I'll have to rethink thinks.
Thanks.
Quote from: Pangaea on September 18, 2014, 03:22:54 PM
In the map I just posted there was an enticing fishing location...
Not going to play the map, at least not now, but I wonder what that would fetch.
e: Oi! I found another one, which is probably even better :)
@Pangaea what beautiful views in this map !!
how many ideas come to my mind !!
number seed? dimension? type?
thanks!
Quote from: assobanana76 on September 22, 2015, 02:04:47 AM
Quote from: Pangaea on September 18, 2014, 03:22:54 PM
In the map I just posted there was an enticing fishing location...
Not going to play the map, at least not now, but I wonder what that would fetch.
e: Oi! I found another one, which is probably even better :)
@Pangaea
what beautiful views in this map !!
how many ideas come to my mind !!
number seed? dimension? type?
thanks!
No idea unfortunately, because that post is from about a year ago when I last played the game, and it wasn't mentioned in the post, nor do I have the saves any more. Some cracking places for fishing huts though, and after seeing some spots like that, it's easier to locate others.
If you just want to test out a great spot, there is one in the 1008 seed (large valleys, if that matters), just to the right of the start location. You need a bridge to get to it, which impacts on the catch a little bit, but it's still very good with 11 fish per catch.
the number of catches are relative to a mathematic formulea. i dont know what is that formulea but i know if you lower the radius , you get more fish per catch, if of course, you get more % of this radius as water.
Quote from: Pangaea on September 22, 2015, 12:05:58 PM
No idea unfortunately, because that post is from about a year ago when I last played the game, and it wasn't mentioned in the post, nor do I have the saves any more. Some cracking places for fishing huts though, and after seeing some spots like that, it's easier to locate others.
d'oh! :-\
Quote from: Pangaea on September 22, 2015, 12:05:58 PM
If you just want to test out a great spot, there is one in the 1008 seed (large valleys, if that matters), just to the right of the start location. You need a bridge to get to it, which impacts on the catch a little bit, but it's still very good with 11 fish per catch.
I'll try it! thanks!
I managed to create a map with a suitable island, and I got more fish from the dock there than I remember ever getting before, around 1000++ per year. It is alone on the island with only a bridge connection to the town, not too far away.
(http://i.imgur.com/yCyceZE.jpg)
Maybe my notes on Fishing are of some use - here (http://banishedpeople.freeforums.org/about-fishing-t52.html)... :)