World of Banished

As you might have noticed, I made a couple of weeks Banished brake again. But I have read the nice @irrelevant blog and I'm getting inspired.

No, no, I don't want to build a X-100 year old town. To look at @irrelevant´s efforts is interesting enough. But I have been thinking a bit about these big stores of food that I (and everyone else I know) try to establish; are they really necessary?

This "rule of thumb" that's recommended; a store of at least 100 food for each citizen (and I must confess, I like to have more); will it lead to starvation with less?

I will test this in a game. Maybe start it tonight. I've been thinking a bit of what I want to do.

- Production limit for food: Never more than 50*population!

This is about half of the yearly consumption. I see no big problem as long as the settlement is small enough to be supported to at least 50% with food that's produced contentiously. But what's later, when the population grows and you need more food? I don't think you can rely too much on trade. And this is an experiment, so I will not use the trading ports as store in any way. Farming will also have its limits in such a game.

I do like the NMT-mod (and some other mods, too) but I am pretty sure that this experiment would work, if I use the extra possibilities of producing food continuously (apiaries, fishing ponds) and processing of the food to increase the amount (millers, butchers...) . I'm not so sure if I play "vanilla". Conclusion: No mods.

I will probably choose a medium map, medium start. I want beans but also one crop that can be harvested as late as possible. If I remember it right; squash is the best here. With such a combination I can harvest a long period; from summer to early winter. Does anyone know the difference between different fruits and nuts? As far as I know, they are all harvested a short period quite late but I haven't studied any differences.

Maybe I can tell you a little bit more tomorrow.

Squash is the hardiest, not starting to die off until the temp falls below 25F. Wheat also is hardier than most, dying off only below 30F. All other vanilla crops start to die below 32F.

The growth characteristics of crops were discovered and discussed within days after the mod pack came out. However, I have never seen any similar information relating to orchard fruit or nuts. I expect if this information were available it would surely have been posted on WoB by now.

I have been playing a map with CC Very Harsh climate. I've found wheat to be the best crop (I don't have squash yet) and apples seem to be OK too.  But they may have been tweaked by the modders.  I haven't tried any of the other fruit or nut orchards.

Quote from: irrelevant on August 28, 2015, 04:49:06 PM
The growth characteristics of crops were discovered and discussed within days after the mod pack came out. However, I have never seen any similar information relating to orchard fruit or nuts. I expect if this information were available it would surely have been posted on WoB by now.

they all have the same code:

plum:
FruitDescription fruit
{
   float _growthInMonths = 4;
   float _growthTemp = 65;
   float _growthTempRange = 20;

peach:
FruitDescription fruit
{
   float _growthInMonths = 4;
   float _growthTemp = 65;
   float _growthTempRange = 20;

pear:
FruitDescription fruit
{
   float _growthInMonths = 4;
   float _growthTemp = 65;
   float _growthTempRange = 20;

apple:
FruitDescription fruit
{
   float _growthInMonths = 4;
   float _growthTemp = 65;
   float _growthTempRange = 20;

cherry
FruitDescription fruit
{
   float _growthInMonths = 4;
   float _growthTemp = 65;
   float _growthTempRange = 20;


walnut:
FruitDescription fruit
{
   float _growthInMonths = 4;
   float _growthTemp = 65;
   float _growthTempRange = 20;

pecan:
FruitDescription fruit
{
   float _growthInMonths = 4;
   float _growthTemp = 65;
   float _growthTempRange = 20;

chesnut:
FruitDescription fruit
{
   float _growthInMonths = 4;
   float _growthTemp = 65;
   float _growthTempRange = 20;

@RedKetchup thanks! Four months to grow! And they die just like field crops do, when it goes below freezing? It's a miracle we ever get anything from orchards.

Quote from: irrelevant on August 29, 2015, 06:23:15 AM
@RedKetchup thanks! Four months to grow! And they die just like field crops do, when it goes below freezing? It's a miracle we ever get anything from orchards.

i dont know. maybe the range temp of 20 means from 45F(65-20) up to 85F(65+20) not sure about how his brain was functioning ^^

Pretty sure you are right about the way the temp range works. There's nothing in the field crop characteristics about dying below 32F either, but they all do, except for wheat and squash. They don't die off until the temp goes below the minimum value of their range (30 for wheat and 25 for squash). But everything else dies below 32F. Mostly the minimum value of their ranges is around 40F.

I started that game yesterday and continued this afternoon.

As I expected; there are no problems at all at the beginning without big stores, so there isn't much to tell.

I do a lot of farming. I had beans, wheat and walnuts from the start.  After some years, I bought squash seeds, and I have bought all tree seeds, I could get. If I knew what you just told us @RedKetchup, it wasn't necessary. I wanted to compare them, but I can confirm the numbers; I haven't seen any difference between the trees. The combination beans/squash works very well. I will also buy corn seeds as soon as they are offered. As far as I remember, the harvest starts earlier than with wheat.

First picture, year 1

A little bit different start than usual. Normally I build a school or a gatherer as the first building. Here, the oldest child was 6 at the beginning, so there was no hurry with the school. With 16 people, the food limit is set to 800. So i will have no need for any food production at the beginning. So this time I started with a forester. I built two fields at the start anyhow, a little smaller than I usually do. And you can see; the production has stopped. This is my strategy. I`vie kept it all the years I've been playing. A little "too much" farms, so the production will stop several times during the harvest.

Second picture, year 8

City hall has just been built, so I can show you the food graph for the first years. Not very upsetting.

Third picture, year 19

This is where I am now. I have moved north. Here is my main farming area and you can also see my second market place and "forest node" 3 and 4.

The food graph isn't much different from a "normal" game. just not quite s steep. The one big deep on the graph was because I put some venison into the trading ports. I don't buy any food and I don't really plan to do it regularly either. It's just for emergency. I trade firewood for logs, stone, iron and some wool. Later I will maybe buy some tools too. That's all, so i will not need many more trading ports than the 4 I have now. 

@Nilla this is a good experiment. I really like your town, it looks very much like one of mine. The main difference I see between what we do (other than barns  ;D ) is your roads in the forest areas, I normally don't put roads out there (or houses for that matter; I put my houses just outside the circle). What is your reasoning for that?

Do you have a pop target in mind for your town?

Quote from: irrelevant on August 29, 2015, 12:42:04 PM
@Nilla this is a good experiment. I really like your town, it looks very much like one of mine. The main difference I see between what we do (other than barns  ;D ) is your roads in the forest areas, I normally don't put roads out there (or houses for that matter; I put my houses just outside the circle). What is your reasoning for that?

Do you have a pop target in mind for your town?

I sometimes use roads in the forest sometimes not. The same thing with houses. I sometimes build them in the center of the circle, sometimes outside. It depends on the map and the conditions. Sometimes it's "random"; no reason, just how I feel about it at the time I build them, but in this case I actually had some thoughts about the houses, not about the roads. I think I only built them to have some "order" by the houses, not blocking entrances or something like that.

I expect the barns to be more or less empty all the time. That means that people who live far away from marketplaces has a bad situation. So I put the barns a bit away from the market places; in the center of the forest area and the houses as close to the barn as I cold, hoping that the people could get what they need before the vendors carried everything away. Of cause, I could have built more marketplaces, but there have to be goods enough (food) to fill them all. And I don't think I have in this game.

I don't know if my thoughts are right but it seems to work. And I can can confirm that there isn't much food in any of the barns.

And I have no special target for the population. Just see how it works. If it's possible, I will at least play to 1000 inhabitants, maybe more.

I have changed my conditions.  ;D

No, no I haven't raised the food limit above 50*population, I cut it. The game was a bit boring. The food stores went down in spring/early summer, but only to 7000-8000. It felt safe all the time. The first 25 years or something like that, I looked at the population as the harvest started and raised the food limit to match the growing population . But than, as the limit was 20 000, I forgot one year and there was no problem. So I decided that I will let it stay at 20 000 as long as I can. Presently I have 600 inhabitants and it still works.

I don't make much micromanagement. I could start the bean and corn harvest manually, but there is no need to. The only thing I do is demolishing and rebuilding the orchards, as the trees start to die. I don't know if this is the best thing to do, but at the moment, I have space enough to let some area rest and you don't need any farmers after the planting, until the trees are ready for harvest.

I build new houses continuously, but not immediately for every couple anymore. I took some batches of nomads, just to increase the excitement, but will not anymore.

First picture, late summer 29

This is my present developing area. The harvest of the beans is running, some fields are even finished. Some corn has been harvested, too and the wheat just starts. Squash, fruit and nut still grows. The food store has started to increase and just passed 10 000.

Second picture, late autumn 29

A cold autumn, it's deep frost. Some fruits and nuts have died but not much squash. The store is almost 20 000 and the harvest has rested a couple of times. That's the reason for the crops still on the fields.

You can see on the graph that the stores always get a bit higher than 20 000. That's because goods on its way to stores doesn't count.

I only played a couple of years yesterday evening, but this time, I have a lot to tell:

I complained that the game was a bit boring, everything under control, didn't I? I have said it before; this game has a soul; if you complain about it being too smooth, something will happen! And it did! Look at the pictures from the year 31.  :o ;D ???

First picture

You may say; What's about it? Some dull fields with some different crops growing. Nothing upsetting about that. But look at the season. It's late summer and the bean harvest hasn't started. It's even too early to start it manually. You can see it on the fields, that the beans are only 60-70% ready, the other crops even much less; the squash, just tiny dots.

Second picture

Now it's early autumn and the fields are getting harvested. This year the squash is done first! No need to go to the barns often, if there's only 50 % or less of a normal harvest. The food graph doesn't look very nice. The stores were never totally empty, but down to about 1500.

Why does it look like this? I mostly play 5X speed and I must confess, that I didn't really notice, what was going on before I made that first screenshot. But I think that the summer was very hot. I've seen it before; if the temperature is very high, the crop dosn´t grow. I think that's what this "range" from the files means.

Third picture

This is the reason I've put some venison and mutton into the trading ports; to buy food, if there is an emergency. If this is not the right time to buy, what than? You can see on the food graph that I never reached the 20 000 limit this year. It was less than 15 000 the most. How much do you think I bought?

Of cause I didn't buy anything at all. I was a little bit tempted and I made a save, just in case, but no, I want to test the limits and now I have the chance. ;D

Fourth picture

It went well! This harvest is normal, you can see it on the fields in the background. The stores are increasing and shortly after this picture, the harvest stopped, as the food limit was reached, just as planned.

The line of marching people are no rejected nomads, just diligent laborers, carrying materials to the new building site.

730 inhabitants. Food limit 20 000. I will go for 800; a store of 25% of the yearly consumption. I think it could work.

One bad harvest can be truly disruptive to the food supply. I have had bad years at GP that resulted in a swing of 100,000 food. The ultimate bad year is a snowfall in spring combined with a hot summer and an early frost.

Running with marginal food is my worst nightmare. You are doing it deliberately, yet you call me crazy?  ;) ;D

An interesting experiment, @Nilla!

Quote from: irrelevant on September 01, 2015, 06:00:04 AM
One bad harvest can be truly disruptive to the food supply. I have had bad years at GP that resulted in a swing of 100,000 food. The ultimate bad year is a snowfall in spring combined with a hot summer and an early frost.

Running with marginal food is my worst nightmare. You are doing it deliberately, yet you call me crazy?  ;) ;D

An interesting experiment, @Nilla!

Yes, I find it interesting, too but right, I don't know which one of us is more crazy. I suppose we could both proudly count us in that category. ;)

But I can prove that it doesn't have to be a nightmare. With some planning and consideration, it works more or less without stores at all. 800 people; no problem. Now I even have more than 1000 and I still haven't increased the food limit!

I have changed my tactic. I have started to buy fruit regularly and maybe I will also have to buy some protein, I have started to order nuts as well, but not bought any yet. The reason is that the health was getting down. I think it was because there was too little fruit. If they produce bad normally, in this game they produce even less. As I've told you before; the harvest stops often several times during autumn. Beans and corn are harvested early before the stores are filled, squash and wheat can wait long before they freeze, but fruit and nuts are harvested late and freeze early. Result; even with a lot of orchards, there's too little fruit.

I don't flood the place with apples, just buy a little to fill the stores with as much fruit as I have from the other food categories, mostly I buy 6000. This new tactic seems to work, at least so far. I know it's a bit hazardous to rely on trade for food, if the stores are small, so we will see how long I will survive. I have to decided to play as long as possible with a food limit of 20 000.

I counted how much food there are in the houses; these are the biggest stores; about 65 000: more than ½ year consumption.

First pictures

My hunters can catch a lot of deer, too. OK there are 3 of them in each cabin, but still good. I am happy that the uneducated nomad is less lucky than the educated. Of the 10 deer the hunters in this cabin shot, he only got one. Or maybe there's another explanation: The educated hunters are females, the uneducated male. Could that be the reason ;)  ;D.

Second picture

There is a small problem with the empty stores. Sometimes people are starving, there were even 2 deaths. A person needs food. His normal barn or market place is empty, so he has to walk far to get some food. I don't know how to prevent this. Many barns and even the market places contains no food during some periods. The bean harvest has just started, so some beans has just arrived but that's all.

You can see the food graph, more or less the same every year (except the bad year I told you about the last time).

Third picture

This merchant will have to wait. I could need the apples. There are just a few berries in the stores, no other fruit, but I will not spoil the harvest.

When my markets get bare like that I add more vendors. It might help some; how many markets do you have?

Edit: just noticed you already have 16 at that one in the pic, don't know that more would really help you much here. I'd try adding a few at the worst market and see if it makes any difference.

Believe me, I've been experimenting a lot with the number of vendors. I'm sure in this case it doesn't help to increase them. There are 5 markets and before the harvest starts there's usually only 2000-5000 food left, so there is not much to get. I'm not so sure that I even want everything carried to the markets. The people in the distant areas also need some food. Maybe I should have built 1 or 2 markets less, but I´m not so sure here either.

So it's the same problem if you have much much food or little food; distribution!  :-\

1200 inhabitants passed! Food limit 20 000. Still alive!

First picture

This hospital was once good located at the mountain side, behind fields and pastures. But than I built that trading port and the bridge to the other side of the river and suddenly the main road passes outside.  :-\. The first sick got to the hospital fast, all other infected are pass-byers and idlers.

I´ve built another tunnel, no change. I´ve built more roads between the fields, no change. The next thing will be to turn the hospital and make the entrance to the mountainside and take away the road that passes.

You can see, even if I buy some fruit, the production and consumption of food are about the same.

Second picture

It´s getting a bit problematic. You can see that the products from farming are all used, so until the harvest starts, there is no grain and only little vegetables to get. This makes the health go down. And of cause it´s also very fragile. Now I´m dependent on the food merchants. So I´ve built some more trading ports. There are 8 of them now.

The harvest hasn´t started yet, even though it looks like that. There was a late frost, so a part of the crops froze in early spring.

1500 inhabitants passed! Food limit 20 000! Still alive. Believe it or not! Now I will go for 2000!  ;D

First picture

I will show you a couple of things in this picture

1. This is a miserable autumn. It´s not even late autumn and there is frost. I´m glad of my many squash and wheat fields.

2. There are still idlers from the nearby (?) settlement at the turned hospital and sometimes some "passbyers", who use the shortcut over the mountain, but not so many as it was before.

3. Even if I buy a lot of apples and some chestnuts the production and consumption of food are about the same.

4. I have found a good strategy; I always let the boats with food wait until they are empty or until another one arrives. In that way, I can always buy the "right" amount of apples/chestnuts at the "right" point. I don´t want the production to stop, because the barns are full of imported food.

Second picture

Year 48, 1500 inhabitants.

I´ve learned one thing the hard way; Don´t build any new houses, if you have empty stores! The people who move in, will walk all over the map, to look for food and finally die of starvation in front of a distant barn. On their way, they will pass several markets and barns, not full of food, but not totally empty either. I don´t understand the programming of food gathering. ???

Quote from: Nilla on September 07, 2015, 05:24:29 AM

Second picture

Year 48, 1500 inhabitants.

I´ve learned one thing the hard way; Don´t build any new houses, if you have empty stores! The people who move in, will walk all over the map, to look for food and finally die of starvation in front of a distant barn. On their way, they will pass several markets and barns, not full of food, but not totally empty either. I don´t understand the programming of food gathering. ???

I know what is happening here; the guy is shopping not just for any old place that has food, he is shopping for a location where he can get the best variety of food. He'd like to take home all four food groups if he can. He'll go where he needs to go in order to do that.

Did you know that our guys go home to eat 6x/year? And when they do they will eat ~15 food points. If there is a good variety of food present in his house, each type of food has an equal chance of having 1-3 points consumed; if all four food groups are present, he will eat some of each one. If all four groups are not present, or if the total food inventory in the house is less than ~150, there is a good chance that the next thing someone who lives there will do is go shopping for food.

Caveat: I learned this by following around the members of one family in Frenchman's Bend for a couple of years. As FB is the land of plenty, the details may vary somewhat in a town like Mobilene, that is getting by on a shoestring. But I'm confident the basic behaviors will be the same.

Quote from: irrelevant on September 07, 2015, 10:43:04 PM

I know what is happening here; the guy is shopping not just for any old place that has food, he is shopping for a location where he can get the best variety of food. He'd like to take home all four food groups if he can. He'll go where he needs to go in order to do that.

That might be an explanation, but I'm not sure you're right. In other games with plenty of food, I have noticed that a house close to a barn that's mainly used from a fisher often only contains fish and the health of the people in it, is very bad. If your theory was right, they would walk a bit further, to get a variation of food. But they don't seem to do this, at least not always.

I have another thought: The person is programmed, the moment as he starts his walk and if he is headed for one place from the beginning, he doesn't change his mind on his way. It might very well have been no food in the two closest markets, as he started his walk, or the food had been "reserved" for someone else, who started his walk earlier.

I didn't play yesterday but I think I will tonight and than I will study the behavior a bit better.

Quote from: Nilla on September 08, 2015, 05:00:38 AM

That might be an explanation, but I'm not sure you're right. In other games with plenty of food, I have noticed that a house close to a barn that's mainly used from a fisher often only contains fish and the health of the people in it, is very bad. If your theory was right, they would walk a bit further, to get a variation of food. But they don't seem to do this, at least not always.

in the case of FB, I probably was seeing the best possible situation, where everyone lives in a market circle; in that case they go to the market. You're right, a fisher not in a market circle is probably not going to eat very well.

Quote from: Nilla on September 08, 2015, 05:00:38 AM

I have another thought: The person is programmed, the moment as he starts his walk and if he is headed for one place from the beginning, he doesn't change his mind on his way. It might very well have been no food in the two closest markets, as he started his walk, or the food had been "reserved" for someone else, who started his walk earlier.

I'm sure this is the case for every move our guys make. Their missions get created (even "idling" and "playing") and nothing will change them until they are complete, with one exception: you can stop someone from working by shutting down his workplace and firing everyone who works there. If you do that while he is sick, he will head straight to his doctor.

I did play yesterday evening but not until 2000. I'm in year 52 and have about 1750 inhabitants, but also this time: no change of the food limit and still alive.

As I can remember/as I saw, there were only two starvation deaths. One of them more or less provoked by me, because I wanted to study the behavior of collecting food. But as I started to plan the time of finishing new homes, it's much better.

I cannot say I understand much more even after my studies, but I think it's a  "competition" of the little food in the stores:

First picture

The 4 houses in the circle are new. Built in a period of little food and I followed some of their inhabitants:

Silvesteban and Arti

Arti went to the close by market 4 times:
1. getting 50 firewood
2. getting 22 fish (why 22?)
3. getting 22 onions -"-
4  getting 148 apples (at the time of the screenshot)

What did Silvesteban do in that time?
He went to the second closest market (blue X on the map). As he go there, he turned, because he was cold and went home to get warm. He didn't carry anything home from the market. After the brief brake at home, I suppose he was tired, so he went out to idle!  :-\ The poor Arti has to do all the carrying around! Does she regret her marriage already? Such an inefficient, lazy (?) husband?

From one of the neighbor houses one person died of starvation, just in front of a distant barn (red X on the map). It's a barn for a fisher hut. I also put two very small fields there, to get some food variation for the inhabitants in that corner. I suppose there was some food left there assigned for him.

Second picture

I haven´t shown the food graph for a long time. Here it is; every year pretty much the same.

You can see my latest building project and strategy for finishing houses. It´s early autumn. The stores are filling up. I will just assign some builders to finish the started homes (there are some more on another spot) But you can see; I ran out of stones. I was a bit too eager to order food from the general tradesmen and "unordered" too much stone. I have to make some adjustments, if I want to get to the 2000.

That's it! 2000 inhabitants early summer 56; food limit 2000. It was possible.

What have we learned from this experiment?

It is possible to play Banished, even support a growing settlement, without building up a large store of food.

Would I recommend to play a game like this? No. it's certainly easier the "normal" way. But there is no need to panic, if the stores for some reason are small. As long as you are in control of what you are doing; It's cool!

I'll show the production numbers. I had a couple of bad harvests the last years, but the present year was normal. You can see; in a good year, I need to buy the food from one boat each year. The rest is produced in town.

Doesn´t seem to work to attach pictures today. I´ll try later.

wow nice !

Very interesting game @Nilla. Would be interesting to see how well you would have fared without any food imports at all.

@Pangaea; it wouldn't have worked at all with that extreme low food limit of 20 000 for 2000 people. The production would have been too low.

It might have worked with my original plan of 50 food for each person. In fact as long as I held on to that limit, I bought no food. Maybe I can revive this town after I've finished my "bad conditions" town and give it a try. Unfortunately I've changed most orchards to fields (more reliable and longer harvest) so they will have to do with a slightly unbalanced diet, but as my other experiment shows; it doesn't seem to matter much.