No, this isn't a post to ask for a noodle shop! :o
My idea revolves around making food you grow last longer using non-food resources to help!
Come again? I don't think my Bannies want to eat rocks or bark! ???
They won't, trust me! 8)
First building: Cannery
This building is designed to double your fruit and vegetable output per farm using iron as the added ingredient!
10 "raw" vegetable +1 iron = 20 Canned Vegetable
10 "raw" fruit +1 iron = 20 Canned Fruit
All canned products are to have a trade value of 1. This is meant to stretch your food, not make you rich.
I'm thinking 2 workers per cannery
Each cannery should be able to process 1500-2000 raw fruit or veggies a year(output 3000-4000 food/year)
Second building: Smokehouse
This building is designed to increase your meat output dramatically using firewood as the added ingredient.
6 meat(except fish)+2 firewood = 20 Jerky(trade value =1ea)
20 fish + 2 firewood = 20 Smoked Fish (trade value =2ea)
I figure that since fish tends to pile up in the barns for most games I play, it would be good to have a value added option for fish and fish alone. Pasture meat can be processed to stretch it out for your Bannies.
Again figuring 2 workers per smokehouse, with an output of 3000-4000 food per year.
I am thinking building sizes should be either (5+1)x7 or (6+1)x6 for these facilities.
What do you guys think?
i like the idea.you could change the dry goods building?but a new building would be even be greater.great idea ;D
nice ! at least someone doesnt ask impossible things ! (like many non-moddler ^^)
very good ideas as a whole. and fully feasible :)
First building: Cannery
the numbers are very good and realistic. the only thing : in 1600-1700-1800 did it existed at that time ? i thought the cannage process is from 1900+ and i would have rather think they would use pots (glass or even clay?)
we would need a huge drop box for all the vegs and all fruits. (no idea if a limit)
Second building: Smokehouse
6 meat(except fish)+2 firewood = 20 Jerky(trade value =1ea)
20 fish + 2 firewood = 20 Smoked Fish (trade value =2ea)
the fish part is perfect too (same as cannery) but the meat. you know the meat worth 3 per so 6x3=18 + 2 firewood at 4 = cost 26. and you pnly get 20 jerky x1 per. a final cost of minus -6. i think the trade value should be 2 too.
it will need a drop box menu for each of the meat (beef, venison, mutton) or fish. this is not a problem at all.
40 trade from 26 cost , 40 trade from 23 cost
Quote from: RedKetchup on February 21, 2015, 10:21:18 PM
the numbers are very good and realistic. the only thing : in 1600-1700-1800 did it existed at that time ? i thought the cannage process is from 1900+
I'm sure you're right there, cans are not that old. Old preservation methods: drying, smoking, salting, fermenting.
It is an interesting thought to process food. I am not sure though, that I like the thought of only increasing the amount of food, it will make the game easier. I think it would be better to increase the value a little bit.
I think @Red Ketchup, you had the idea before, that only somehow processed food would be tagged as "grain", "vegetables" "proteins" or "fruit". The raw materials only as "food". In such a game, the suggestions from
@Chon Waen would be great.
yes exactly. my plan was and still "is" make this mod complete, a big mod, not as brilliant as CC:EA cause i am alone on it and so few time available ....
and then take that mod and turn it into a challenging mod where all food are only food and you need process the food in order to get back their nutritive elements :)
I like this idea too-except instead of canning maybe a drying shed for vegetables and fruits? A smoker would be perfect and go well with the time period of the game. I also like RK's idea of processing food to gain nutritive value-eating raw wheat would be highly improbable.
Well, I've been asking for sauerkraut for a long time--something to do with all that (expletive deleted) cabbage. A "fermentary" would be quite useful, though one would need to add salt to the game to make it realistic. The fermentary (if I may invent a word) could also make salted fish--and pickled eggs to be served at the tavern.
The one issue I see is that, for all practical purposes, food in Banished is already permanent. It never goes bad. So, in order to make the buildings worth building there would need to be some value added. Maybe, if cabbage is worth one unit sauerkraut could be worth two units, or some such. Otherwise there is no point wasting the materials and workers to get something you already have without it.
My thought process on the jerky isn't so much to increase trade value per se. Its more to get the most food value out of farms and pastures without having to resort to trading as much. My first thought on jerky tbh was 3meat +1firewood = 15jerky, but I thought a 5:1 food ratio was excessive. Going with a trade value of 2 for jerky seems a good compromise.
And although metal cans are 19th century, i really didn't want to go the route of trying to add either potters or coopers to the game and excessively complicate the processes.
However, if I were to choose one or the other, it would have to be cooper because I am not keen on the idea of clay pits (quarry)
Cooper's Shop:
Size: (4+1)x7 or (6+1)x6 (add +1 for residence)
Workers: 2
Input ratio: 2 logs + 1 iron (trade value = 9)
Output ratio: 6 barrels @2ea trade value(12)
Yearly output at 2 workers: 720-960 barrels
I'm giving this output value so that one Cooper's Shop will support 1 Fermentary (300-400/yr) and one Tavern (400-500/yr)
Fruit drying shop (Drying Shed?)
Size: (5+1)x6 (add +1 for residence)
Workers: 2
Input ratio: 10 "raw" fruit +1 firewood (trade value = 14)
Output ratio: 20 dried fruit @1ea (trade value = 20)
Yearly output at 2 workers: 3000-4000
Cannery: (Fermentary?)
Size:(7+1)x5 (no residence)
Workers:2
Input ratio: 10 "raw" veggies +2 barrels (trade value 14)
Output ratio: 20 "canned" vegetables @1ea (trade value 20)
Yearly output at 2 workers: 3000-4000
Since we already have coopers, it seems to make sense to add barrels to the tavern process.
It would make brewing a bit harder and you wouldn't get quite the profit margin of original taverns (5 per ale), but I think that Ale is a bit overpowered as a trade good as is.
Tavern:
Size: (6+1)x5 (residence +1) no change from RK's Medieval Tavern
Workers: 1
Input: 30 fruit + 10 barrels (trade value = 50)
Output: 20 Ale@5ea (trade value = 100)
Double, triple, or quadruple the building's storage capacity so the brewer can have room to work (I remember reading about brewers not working due to storage constraints)
My secondary reason for changing the outputs and ale values is so more ale will get to the trading post and not get drunk enroute by your bannies!
Many of my input/output values are given as ratios because I don't know how many effective work units a facility should have over a given year.
One of the reasons I try to keep output values low on food is quite simple. The game's economic model pretty well mandates it if you want a particular food to be eaten rather than traded.
The argument for making raw foods have poor nutritional value and processed foods a higher nutritional value sounds good at first blush, but it would most likely prove unworkable in the game.
Early in the game, your bannies would be starving with full plates of roots, berries, and onions!
It usually takes several game years before you are really ready to develop more advanced food processing.
Since other than food groups covered, food is food to the bannies, who don't care how much the food costs as long as they get their 100 units of it. This is why pasture meats tend to be traded for crop foods. 1 mutton trades for 1 corn, 1apple, and 1 fish. Your bannie is both fuller and healthier by trading mutton instead of eating it! The rule of thumb is: the more expensive the food, the more likely it will be traded for the basics.
This is why I generally try to make food processing generate a higher quantity of "cheap" foods that you don't want to trade. There's already plenty of trade goods out there.
Is it possible to mod in a spoilage factor? So that unprocessed food would have a markedly shorter shelf life than processed goods?
food doesnt have any lifetime parameters, and we cannot define one (as moddler). the food can last 1 billion year if we want ^^
Quote from: Chon Waen on February 22, 2015, 12:51:09 PM
And although metal cans are 19th century, i really didn't want to go the route of trying to add either potters or coopers to the game and excessively complicate the processes.
However, if I were to choose one or the other, it would have to be cooper because I am not keen on the idea of clay pits (quarry)
Barrels of preserved foods were fairly common prior to cans. Thus the "cracker barrel" and "pickle barrel." Preserved meats (salted fish, salted beef) were usually in barrels. I'm not sure how far back the practice goes, but may have been connected with preserving foods in salt, which is quite ancient. Clay jars were earliest, no doubt, but barrels were common by the late Medieval period in Europe.
so a barrel maker ? cant a blacksmith take care of that ?
Coopers were (and are) craftsmen in their own right. I suppose you could define the smitty as a generalized workshop, but that begs the question of why there is a taylor.
Ooh! Salt preservation!
My inner evil is whispering in my ear:
"Make Bannies work in salt mine!"
Honestly, though, I do NOT want salt mines added regardless of how historically accurate it may be.
Quote from: Chon Waen on February 23, 2015, 04:18:54 PM
Ooh! Salt preservation!
My inner evil is whispering in my ear:
"Make Bannies work in salt mine!"
Honestly, though, I do NOT want salt mines added regardless of how historically accurate it may be.
Can't be any worse than coal or iron mines, can they? You could add in
@RedKetchup's Medieval mod and create Salzburg! ;D Salt mines don't even need to be near mountains. In Goderich, Ontario there is one that extends way out under Lake Huron. If you don't want salt mines you could add salt drying pans near a water source and pretend the water is salt water. These were quite common near oceans and salty lakes from ancient times. Sometime check out an aerial picture of the south end of San Francisco Bay. Salt pans can be very colorful.
I've smelled salt pan areas in both the bay area and near salt lake city. No thanks, i don't want my bannies to experience that!!! Plus, I tend to hate "non-renewables" in general, along with happiness detractors in the game.
And there's no way you can tell me that an in-game salt processing facility would not make bannies unhappy!
but i cannot cook or eat with salt ! ^^
Quote from: Chon Waen on February 25, 2015, 10:05:32 AM
I've smelled salt pan areas in both the bay area and near salt lake city. No thanks, i don't want my bannies to experience that!!! Plus, I tend to hate "non-renewables" in general, along with happiness detractors in the game.
And there's no way you can tell me that an in-game salt processing facility would not make bannies unhappy!
but if it is there, included in a mod... you would just not use this feature and still use the mod if it bring you something else .... and buy the 'salt' from traders if you need it to do something ?
you wont put the mod in the garbage cause it 'contains' a salt mine ? ^^
No, I'd trade for salt if I needed it, and maybe put a salt mine/pans in a game just to see it once or twice. Tbh, i will probably never use the medieval hunting cabin residence, because I like my residences supplied by vendors, but if I like at least some of the things in a mod pack, I will tend to use that pack. Always my choice to use or not use objects within it.
Thats almost a silly question, RK!
There would not be necessary to make salt mines if you don't want to. You could be historically correct with or without them. In wast areas, here in Sweden as example, there were very little salt production and salt was a main trading good, very important and expensive.
Quote from: rkelly17 on February 23, 2015, 07:07:07 AM
Quote from: Chon Waen on February 22, 2015, 12:51:09 PM
And although metal cans are 19th century, i really didn't want to go the route of trying to add either potters or coopers to the game and excessively complicate the processes.
However, if I were to choose one or the other, it would have to be cooper because I am not keen on the idea of clay pits (quarry)
Barrels of preserved foods were fairly common prior to cans. Thus the "cracker barrel" and "pickle barrel." Preserved meats (salted fish, salted beef) were usually in barrels. I'm not sure how far back the practice goes, but may have been connected with preserving foods in salt, which is quite ancient. Clay jars were earliest, no doubt, but barrels were common by the late Medieval period in Europe.
Actually metal cans were invented in the late 1700s, for the Napoleonic wars, because they didn't break as easily as the earliest glass cans. (Napoleon offered a reward for anyone who came up with a method of preserving food for the army. Canned food won)
Quote from: Bracken on February 26, 2015, 04:33:54 AM
Actually metal cans were invented in the late 1700s, for the Napoleonic wars, because they didn't break as easily as the earliest glass cans. (Napoleon offered a reward for anyone who came up with a method of preserving food for the army. Canned food won)
Thank you for the interesting information,
@Bracken. That Napoleon was an ingenious devil. Do you know how widely canned food was used after 1815? Did it catch on fairly quickly or more slowly? I know among my parents' generation some WW2 veterans loved Spam and some never wanted to see it again as long as they lived.
Quote from: rkelly17 on February 26, 2015, 05:42:15 AM
Quote from: Bracken on February 26, 2015, 04:33:54 AM
Actually metal cans were invented in the late 1700s, for the Napoleonic wars, because they didn't break as easily as the earliest glass cans. (Napoleon offered a reward for anyone who came up with a method of preserving food for the army. Canned food won)
Thank you for the interesting information, @Bracken. That Napoleon was an ingenious devil. Do you know how widely canned food was used after 1815? Did it catch on fairly quickly or more slowly? I know among my parents' generation some WW2 veterans loved Spam and some never wanted to see it again as long as they lived.
It was widely used by all the armies in all the 19th century wars on the European side of the Atlantic. Civilian use took off in the 1850s-60s.
interessant !
Quote from: Bracken on February 26, 2015, 06:05:36 AM
It was widely used by all the armies in all the 19th century wars on the European side of the Atlantic. Civilian use took off in the 1850s-60s.
Again, thank you,
@Bracken. I went and looked this up and the primary rations in the American Civil War included canned food--along with salted meat and hardtack. The can did cross the Atlantic. I'd be interested to know whether the British colonial armies took cans with them from home or had them produced locally. It was the British navy, after all, that figured out you could prevent scurvy (Vitamin C deficiency) by feeding sailors sauerkraut.
Sauerkraut and citrus, why d'you think the British got the nickname of Limey?
Quote from: Chon Waen on February 27, 2015, 10:50:47 AM
Sauerkraut and citrus, why d'you think the British got the nickname of Limey?
Though the citrus came later and was not as widely used. Can't grow citrus where it freezes and it spoils faster (When I was a kid in So. California a big part of the smog was "smudge pots" in the orchards which burned oil to keep the oranges from freezing). They did also use citrus where it was readily available, but sauerkraut was easier for long voyages or in the North Atlantic.