Necora's Work in Progress

[brads3]

NECORA,i have bad news. turpentine still is broken. won't take charcoal so i switched it to firewood. same problem,worker carries fuel around but never sets it to the still.also the  charcoal is tagged to be furnace fuel but adds up with the firewood. i upgraded my CC the other day because before your charcoal appeared to be right and the cc conflicted with it. i'm not getting apples like before,might even be too low now.what price did you set the pelt coats to? they are trading out at 15,same as a hidecoat. fur coats are at 65. are you sure the trapper will harvest from a vanilla forest? mine is half on a maple forest and half off and i'm getting about 65 furs and pelts. also,what does the beaver lodges look like? i haven't noticed any. i do have traps and foxholes.whatever you did,your mod changes all the trees.the bark trunks look completely different even in the vanilla forests.i couldn't load the  tree mod either.so it is the pine mod affecting my trees.

[Necora]

Hi @brads3 .

Re. Turpentine, I think there might be a conflict with CC there, and also a mistake in the template file of the turpentine still. Firstly, the mistake - there is no firewood flag in the turpentine still. This means that firewood cannot be currently used to make the turpentine, so you have to use Charcoal for now. I think, however, CC might have charcoal flagged as a 'Wood Fuel' the same as firewood. The charcoal in the Pine Set is a 'Industrial Fuel', so custom flag 3. You will have to load up the Pine Set above CC in order for it to accept charcoal in the still (and other thing that need charcoal to burn).

Re. apples - yeah I managed to decrease those quite a bit as previously you were getting thousands. So now they should be inline with other products from the gatherers, I was aiming at 200-300 per food item. What numbers did you get? Now I know how to slow them down a bit I can play with them more to optimize the amount of apples gathered.

Re. trapping. The beaver lodges will only spawn in vanilla forests, as will the fox holes and rabbit holes. They look like a 3D triangle of sticks, and are quite large so you should see them. The trapper will pick up fox holes, rabbit holes, beaver lodges, nests, and three types of trap. The traps are only spawning in the maple and pine forests, and the others are all in the vanilla forest only. So if the trapper is picking up anything, it is working fine. Again, if you have CC above this set in the load order, then that will be why you don't see certain things from the vanilla forests as I am sure that CC changes this to add their own resources like the wild domesticated animal resource. If you load the pine set above CC, then you will get everything in the vanilla forest, but won't have the CC stuff that is spawned. There is not much I can do about that unfortunately, because the game is limited in what we can modify with natural resources.

Re. Pelts - each pelt is valued at 10, and they are made into pelt clothing valued at 15. This is the same as the vanilla leather = leather coat chain.

Re. Trees - this mod adds the new tree set to the game, so you don't need both. The tree mod only replaces tree models from vanilla, which are included in the pine set. There should be no issue with this, it is just not necessary to have both. I would assume that the tree set is conflicting more with CC than this set, so it will need to be above CC to see the new trees. That, however, should not effect the wild resources that CC has added because it only replaces the tree models, nothing else. But I do have to test this to see.

What do you mean the bark trunk looks different? The whole tree should look different... and there should be no vanilla trees. Can you share a screen shot?

[Nilla]

Something just happened, that never happened before! I use to write long texts, but this is the first time I got a warning, that it's too big to be published! So this is the first part. To be continued! 

I play without CC and haven't any problems with the turpentine or charcoal. As far as I can see, they both produce fine.

I will tell you about my impressions so far. I guess this will be long. I will copy your description of the changes and say something to each.

New Content - Various Tools - 3 new types of tool have been added to the pine blacksmith. These are 1 - Bough Tools made from pine boughs and have half the durability of iron tools Need 2 pine boughs to produce. 2 - Pitched tools, which are basically iron tools treated with pitch for added grip and durability. These have the same durability and value of vanilla steel tools, and require 2 wood, 2 iron, and 2 pine pitch to produce. 3 - Twine handled tools. These are iron tools with twine handles for added grip and durability. Again, they have the same durability and value as vanilla steel tools, and need 2 wood, 2 iron, and 2 twine to produce.

Very good change! It's good to have a better use for the raw material of the pine forest.

So far I've tested Pitched tools (PT) and Twine handled tools (TT). I make pitch and charcoal, so I haven't had any bough to spare for tools. I also think it's more something you only need in an emergency, when you're running out of tools and have too little iron. It's good to have such a possibility.

I like all these opportunities. We all know, that's a bit tricky to make steeltools (unless you use a mod that prevent people from using the coal as fuel). Here you can make durable tools in another way. The cost are the same (TT) or a little less (PT) than steeltools. (You forgot to say in the description, that your "recipe" gives 2 tools each). But it's compensated by the productivity of your blacksmith. It's less than vanilla numbers. I produced around 70 high quality tools each year. Good balancing!

New Content - Canvas and Linen Clothing - Two new clothing option, canvas or linen clothing. These are made by the pine tailor, and take 2 canvas or 2 linen to produce, depending on the type. They have the same value and warm as vanilla leather and wool coats.

Again; it's good to have more use of the material from the pine forest.

I haven't made much "vegan" clothing. The productivity of the loom is low. I produced around 60 linen each year and you have to have several or wait some years to supply one tailor. I will not say, that this is a bad thing. Weaving is slow. The profit of one linen is 4, for the weaver ~240. It's too low, to be a good export good but enough, if you produce to use yourself. The tailor seem to have "vanilla" values. That's reasonable. Balancing good. (Unless you want linen to be a good export product.)

Here I must say one thing, that doesn't really belong to the pine set. I happened to buy some hemp seeds. I don't think you made it yourself, but the productivity is extremely high. A field produces the double amount of normal crops. That means, one farmer can easily produce 1500 hemp, worth 3000 each year. Maybe this is a "special" kind of hemp.    A society can live good just from exporting hemp. To me, that's not a good balancing. 

New Content - Furriers Hut - A new building which employs a tailor to produce clothing and coats out of pelts and fur.

New Content - Pelt and Pelt Clothing - A new resource, pelt, has been added as a lower value type of fur. This is produced by all trappers, and made into clothing at the Furriers Hut. The clothing from pelts have the same values as vanilla leather and wool coats.

New Content - Fur Coat - A new clothing option, fur coats, has been added. Made by the Furrier's Hut, these are very valuable coats that act as warm clothing.

Again; a good way to use the products from the trapper.

I like, that there are two categories of fur/pelt. One expensive for export, one cheaper for domestic use. From my point of view, it's historically correct. Furs/fur coats were an important trading good from forest areas with a lot of wild animals.

To give pelt/pelt clothes the same values as leather/hide coats is perfect. Similar use; similar process. But I find the fur coats overpowered. @RedKetchup has fur coats, too with this trade value, but you need 2 furs to make 1 coat. Yours only need 1 fur for 1 coat. That's a profit of 45 for one coat. I had annual production of 118-150 from my furrier. (I had much export goods and little things, I wanted to buy, so I only had 1 trapper, and not always a big surplus of fur/pelt, so with enough raw material, I guess that the productivity can get even higher). If we use 150, it means that the furrier makes a profit of  6750. That's much too high. Even if you have to take in account, that you'll never be able to sell all; a part of the coats will be consumed from your citizens as "normal" warm coats.

It's not good when two (or more) modders make the same product from the same raw material with different recipes/different profit. There are two ways to go; Necora, you change your production to Red´s recipe or Red changes his and you agree in setting a lower price on fur coats, Red´s profit of 25 from each coat is still good, but reasonable. I think I would prefere, that you change your production, Necora. It will make it a loss to produce fur coats to use yourself but it also gives you an interesting "mission"; trying to get as many fur coats as possible into the trading port, before they are "snitched" away.

New Dynamic - Trapping and associated Natural Resources - The trapping chain has now changed. There are two new types of trapping mechanism. In vanilla forests, and the forest spawned at the start of the game, various wild animals occur. These include fox holes (fur), rabbit holes (game), nests (eggs), and beaver lodges (pelt). With the pine and maple forests, traps will spawn instead of these wild resources, apart from nest (eggs) which will still occur in pine forests only. There are three types of trap, each producing a different resource, game, fur, and pelt. The trapper can collect all of the above resources, and will collect slightly different things depending on the forest type you build it in. This change has negated the need for the skinner, as the trapper not produces all resources directly from the forest.

Removed Content - Skinner and wild animal resource - The skinner and wild animal resources are now redundant and have been removed.

This is an improvement. I didn't really liked the trapper/skinner chain. I only have one trapper in the vanilla forest so far, so I can't compare, how they work in the different forests, but I like the idea that it's different.

The production of the trapper is high and it variates a lot. I noted tradevalues between 2300 and 1200, average about 1700. The differens of cause, much dependent on how much fur and pelt there are. If we compare this with a normal hunter, who normally hunts between 2 and 4 deer each year, the tradevalue is in the same range.

more to come....... phu.....

Do I find it too much? The total output of a forest is higher with your mods, if you compare it to a vanilla game. That's for sure. But if you look at the area and compare it to farming; farms on the same spot (and now I'm not talking about hemp ) would give more. Canada is a northern country, where you use the resources of a forest. So I find it good that way. Of cause, you still have the same possibilities of farming, as in a vanilla game. In combination, it makes the game easier. But you don't have to farm, if you want to play Canada pure. So I would say; no, it's not too much. The balancing is good.

Model Improvement - Raw Materials - The models of all raw materials have been improved, and re-textured for much better visual represetation.

Model Improvement - Natural Resources - The models of all natural resources have been changed to remove things like barrels in your forest and replace them with more natural things or items representing the work needed to get them. For example, Pine Resin now appears as a small collector bucket that would be stapled to a tree, and then turns into a barrel when harvested.

Model Improvement - Trees - All trees have been given brand new models!

UI Improvement - Raw Material Sprites - All raw materials have new sprites, which are small screen shots of themselves. This looks much better in the menu than the previous icons I was using.

I like it. (Though, you know, how I feel about the red trees, but I can live with them  I'm getting used.)

Balancing - Church - Pine church capacity increased to 50.

I don't use to build churches. To me they have no impact on the gameplay, a decorative item only. But 50 sounds reasonable for that small church.

[Nilla]

Balancing - Pine Harvester - Rate of flax gathering increased.

Let's make a small calculation. You can use flax to make twine for tools, linen for clothes and rope. How much flax do you need for these three buildings?

I'll use my production numbers: 60 linen needs 60*2=120 flax and 60 twine need 5*60/4=75 flax. I didn't run the rope maker long with flax, after I got the hemp seeds. The ropemaker made about 50 rope each year, as I used the hemp, and the settlement was really flooded in hemp, so I guess, that with flax, you will hardly get more than 30. 30 rope need 30*15=450 flax. My two gatherers in the pineforest collected 160-304 flax, average about 250. I find that quite reasonable. You can run one spinner and one weaver and still get some spare flax for a few rope now and then (you will not need that many, and if you do, you will have to stop one or both textile sites or buy some seeds.)

Balancing - Maple Forager - Rate of apple gathering decreased, and rate of maple sap gathering increased.

It was a lot of apples, that's for sure. It's still the product with the highest output, but now it's more in the same range as the other.

I can only see one problem: It's not specific to apples but to balancing of the forests generally. I made some notes of the output in my 3 different forests. If we look at the gatherer: You have increased the number of resources, that a vanilla gatherer can collect. It also increases the total amount of food, that he produces. The output from the maple forest gatherer however is reduced, so the total output from a vanilla forest is higher, than from the other forests. (Unless the trapper is much more productive in the other forests) I'm not sure, that this is a good thing.
My numbers based on 5 different years.

Vanilla: 2484-2692 (average 2560)
Maple: 1409-1812 (average 1580)
Pine: 1120-1744 (average 1460)

2 gatherers in each, flax counts 2.

The pine forest is special, rather producing raw materials than food, but tell me, why should I "build" a maple forest?

Balancing - Pitch Kiln - Work required has been reduced, and the high/low create values of pine pitch have been increased.

Not really sure, what these changes mean in detail, but it sure produces more, about the double. I noted a production of 244-296, average 270. To produce 270 pitch/charcoal (it looks to be the same numbers) you need about 200 bough. It's even a little more than my forest produced. So you will not need more than 1 site to process all bough from one forest. It can be a coincidence the few years I looked, this forest produce less pine bough than pine resin. It used to be about the same. (average 190 pine bough, 280 pine resin). There's more use for bough than resin, so if it is a difference, I would prefere it to be the other way around.

I like, that you only need one site for one pine forest. But I think that the production may be a bit high. I switched between pitch and charcoal, produced pitch tools, dories, maple sirup and whiskey. Still I had more, than I could use in my stores. The profit is 3,25 for each charcoal/pitch or ~900 for the site. This makes, pitch and charcoal good to export. Is this your intention?

Balancing - Turpentine Still - Work required has been reduced, and the high/low create values of pine pitch have been increased.

My turpentine still produced about 150. For that it need about 110 resin, less than half of the annual production of the forest. It's a trade product only. One turpentine gives a profit of 2,25 or 340 for one site. It's a profit, but it's small; you need two raw material, one of them that has to be processed. I would have considered to run a turpentine still to this conditions, if I needed it for something, but not for export. It's easier to sell the resin.

The summary of my impressions: it makes a lot of fun to play with your mod. Almost everything changed is an improvement. The one big thing, that really ought to be changed, is the profit of the fur coats. (and hemp ) The other critics are more thoughts and questions to you, if things have turned out the way you want it to.

Thanks for your work!

[Necora]

@Nilla thanks for the feed back. I'm glad you like it.

Hemp - yeah I noticed that too last night. It has to be included, because it is used in many buildings. But I'm not sure what I did that make a super crop... oops. It will be fixed.

Loom - there will be a faster mill version in the Sherbrooke set.

Fur/Fur coat - actually, the files I used are identical to the ones that @RedKetchup introduced... because they are his files... you need 2 fur for 1:2 (non-educated:educated) fur coats in both Red's mod and this furrier.
I personally find fur too expensive and powerful the way Red did it, and wanted it lower. But instead of making a change to Red's fur, I added pelts as another cheep option.

Foresters - in order to get the range of natural resources on the map at the start, I had to tag them onto the naturalresourcetree.rsc. This is the same file that the vanilla forester uses (other wise it would not cut down map trees) and so the resources are by default also spawned by that forester. This does have the side effect of making for a rather high powered forest set up. Unless I can think of a way of getting some resources to spawn like rocks and iron, so not impacted by the forest, I don't know what to do. I could remove some of the vanilla resources I suppose, but that would make other mods that add a version of the vanilla buildings useless, and I wanted them to be at least able to collect something from the forest. I will think of what I can do to change this. And you build a maple forest for the apples and maple sap which are not included in the vanilla trees.

I did find I got a lot of resin when I played through, so perhaps boughs can be increased and resin decreased.

[Nilla]

Oh I'm sorry, I must have looked wrong as I checked the fur coats, I will play a little more tonight and look again.

I think, too 25 for each coat and a production of 150 is too high. It's 3750 each year. But in this case it's a bit special.  You will never get that profit (or unless you have many extra traders, just waiting for a coat to be produced, and than of cause you must count the extra manpower). I haven't looked in this game yet, how many really lands in the port. As I did it in my last game, using Red's tailor, it was about ½. The tailor was located close to the port, but the settlement quite large, with many diligent vendors, and the coats were spread fast over the map. But if we say that only 1/3 is used by the population: input 300*20=6000, output 100*65 (export) +50*20 (used as warm coats), it's a profit of the more reasonable 1500.

[brads3]

didn't say the trees looked bad. they are different. the leaves and colors have changed. your trunks are more defined or prominate. they seem to stand out more in your mod.i wasn't expecting the mod to change all the trees.
   its odd how a mod can override another mod and other times it won't when you think it should. there are a few mods that do that. the blacksmith tool mod is like that. i can place it high in the list and it will only affect specific blacksmiths but not all of them. it seems the pine mod did change the piles of iron ore also.
   i will test it above CC.i'm wondering what other problems will occur.in CC, charcoal can be used to make furnace fuel and process iron ore into iron. if there is a conflict between the pine and CC, how many buildings won't work properly? i did see some of those before. set a building working and leave it,only to find it wasn't producing stuff i needed. i had a group of nomads come in and my builders were busy trying to get wwork places and houses built for them.after a while i noticed there were buildings not being finished.after that map i upgraded the new CC. i thought that would fix the issues and conflicts.
     i think i need to let my foresters plant longer. i tried to leave the maple forester and then the pine to plant and cut for 5years and then turn them off. i think 8 years growth would give better outputs to the gatherers. i guess i do that so 1 workerr can plant several forests.  i set a vanilla gatherer and then overlap part of the circle 1 side with a maple forest and the other with a pine forest,each with their own gatherer.this way the vanilla gatherer is picking up the normal spawned items and they aren't left. i think overall i get better numbers that way. the vanilla gatherer might drop down some but together  the total is more. and you get a good variety also. my concern was the game would try to spawn the vanilla items and the new items at the same time.so you have 2 sets of items competing for limited number of spaces.
    the way the pine mod's forest work now seems good overall. they don't take away from the vanilla items this way. the gatherer could pick up more types of items but then i'm afraid we would get less of each item. if it could collect the same as now+ "x"amount of 2 more items added to the total than yeah that might work. i think  NILLA'S idea is to increase the yield per pickup of the maple and pine forests by 25% for all items. that way the balance is the same but the total is closer to a vanilla forest.

[Nilla]

I'm sorry to say, I just checked: My furrier uses 2 furs for 2 fur coats.  And I'm sure, that last time I played; Red's tailor needed 2 furs for 1 one coat. Something must have gone wrong as you copied the values.

And Brads; I didn't had any idea about increasing/decreasing any pickups. I just pointed out the difference. Of cause, if Necora finds it important, that the output is similar in all types of forest, it's an option to increase the output of the pine and maple forest. But there are others as well.

And don't I think your idea with overlapping gatherers is that good (if I understood it right). The gatherers will partly compete about the same resources, but try it, maybe it will work.

[Necora]

@Nilla I don't know what to tell you, go check the files for yourself, red's resource files are here http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1607.0 and I can guarantee you his files are identical to mine, as used these exact ones with no changes. It is also in his mod description...

- new tailor patterns : 1 fur + 1 leather = winter coat, 2 furs = fur coat.

There is no mistake, unless @RedKetchup has changed these numbers since he uploaded the files to google drive and as a recent update to the mod that I have missed, but as they are right now, an uneducated worker will make 1 coat from 2 furs, and an educated worker will make 2 coats from 2 furs in both mods.

@brads3 oh haha the way you said it I thought something went wrong. That's OK then!

Pine mod changes iron ore?? It shouldn't.... I didn't touch iron.

I will have a good look through the CC set up and see. From what I gather, any of my resources will be able to be used in CC buildings, regardless of storage flag, because of the way @kralyerg coded the CC buildings (I think I might do the same for mine to avoid conflicts). This means that as long as the pine set is above CC in the load order, all resources should be usable in all buildings.

As for forests, resources should start spawning from a tree when the tree is about 8 months old. So the more trees you have older than 1 year, the more resources will be spawning in the forest. I cut down large swaths of forest when I build a new one, so that there is no competition (a specific set forester will ignore trees from another set due to how the game is coded). But to start the game, the vanilla forester will grow and harvest trees already on the map without needing to clear any space.

I'll have a look at numbers from a game I've been running for a few years and see how they match up with yours. No doubt play stile has a large impact here, but I am definitely up for changing the balance of the outputs to make them fair.

[brads3]

i have tried to use a vanilla gatherer a few times. i think i get more this way. my understanding is the game is placing random items from both the pine set mod's list and the vanilla list at the same time.thus if it sets down a ginger or root,the pine gatherer will leave them on the ground. so in the ciforester circle you have both sets of items mixed.my overall totals with the vanilla gatherer +a maple and a pine gatherer is more than if i left out the vanilla gatherer.plus i have the advantage of collecting food while the pine and maple forest is getting planted and some growth.i understand your thinking that i am taking away from the maple and pine items. my belief is the game places those items as it places the new items. i could be wrong but my understanding of the program is the map sets the vanilla items on the map where there are forests.the gatherer doesn't decide what items appear. the new forests add items to the list of items being generated in its circle. hence with or without the maple forest the game spawns vailla items. with the maple forest the game spawns from both the vanilla list and the maple forest list. the maple forest items don't replace the vanilla so it isn't maple sap instead of roots or apples instead of ginger.the game program could place sap here and the next space place a root or ginger.those items appear anyhow but the maple gatherer won't collect them. without the vanilla gatherer those items just get  left and the deer eat them in the winter. NILLA, try adding a vanilla gatherer to your maple set and see if you find a big change in your numbers.my theory is the vanilla gatherer will pick up items but the maple gatherer should pick up the same as now.

[brads3]

NECORA, u bring up an interesting point that i should test. you are saying a normal forester will not cut down your trees. that is odd. a forester goes into the woods and cuts trees,his objective is make logs. now i have heard the forester has been known to cut down orchards. am i reading what you posted wrong?furthermore under some starts,i have not tested all,your mods override CC and changes the trees anyhow.it would be nice if the vanilla foresters did not cut down the apples and maples or pines.i could overlap circles more.
   NILLA and i had a discussion about tree gowth before.my way is to plant the new trees for 5years and then turn the forester off,so he doesn't cut down any of the new trees. then i turn on my maple gatherer and it should produce good and collect consistantly from year to year.only if the tree age and die should my numbers fall off.i seem to find good production and balance if i leave the forester to plant for 5 -8 years and then turn it off.usijng the forever tree mod the trees should not die either.

[Nilla]

 

@Nilla I don't know what to tell you, go check the files for yourself, red's resource files are here http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1607.0 and I can guarantee you his files are identical to mine, as used these exact ones with no changes. It is also in his mod description...

- new tailor patterns : 1 fur + 1 leather = winter coat, 2 furs = fur coat.

There is no mistake, unless @RedKetchup has changed these numbers since he uploaded the files to google drive and as a recent update to the mod that I have missed, but as they are right now, an uneducated worker will make 1 coat from 2 furs, and an educated worker will make 2 coats from 2 furs in both mods

I understand nothing from modding and the files, so I can't say anything about what is changed, when. I can only check the result. I just built Red's tailor from the training camp. Like I remembered from my last game, his tailor needs 2 furs for 1 coat, (or rather 4 furs for 2 coats) just as he says in your quote; "1 fur + 1 leather = winter coat, 2 furs = fur coats" and as you say; yours make 2 coats from 2 furs. I have only educated people. So, I'm 100% sure, your tailor needs the half amount of furs, compared to his!

the maple forest items don't replace the vanilla so it isn't maple sap instead of roots or apples instead of ginger.the game program could place sap here and the next space place a root or ginge

I'm pretty sure it is. It's just at the beginning, as you're establishing the new kind of forest, that you can have both. As soon as the original trees are gone, the original resources are gone, too. Now I guess a vanilla gatherer will get something to pick also in pine and maple forests. In the new version they also pick cranberries and chanterell. But I see no sense in making it double, the maple/pine forester also picks cranberries/chanterell, so they would only compete about the resources. But if it pleases you, I can put a vanilla forester in each forest to see what will happen.

[Nilla]

I have tested a vanilla gatherer in my pine and maple forest. It was quite as I thought it would be. The gatherer collects a little cranberries, blueberries and chantarell and somehow the gatherer in the pine forest managed to find a little fiddlehead. It might be the sama as a hunter. If he´s working, he might kill a deer way out of his circle if one is unlucky enough, to cross his path. I guess this gatherer walked across a fiddlehead on his way home to eat, and couldn´t resist picking it. 

You can see the numbers in the screenshot and compare it to the normal vanilla gatherers below. It´s hard to say, if the output from the specific gatherer are less than usual. It varies a lot from year to year. I guess it is a bit.

[RedKetchup]

nice to see many greenhouses in your screenshot @Nilla ^^
what was the numbers during that time to compare the huts ?

[brads3]

umm NILLA that is a vanilla gatherer from the mod set though. a normal vanilla gatherer won't harvest the new items.that would stop the competing factor.