RKEditorChoice BETA13 open

[smurphys7]

Yes, I did notice you have adjusted the Firewood production.  Thank you, that is an excellent change.  When there is an outrageous outlier that should be changed and fixed.  You have corrected the outrageous outlier that was Firewood production.

Mining is an outrageous outlier in the opposite direction.  Mining doesn't have to be a super profitable money maker.  Mining should be, at least, a somewhat reasonable choice.  Currently, Mining is not a reasonable choice.  The only reason to Mine is because you don't want to do any Trading.  Mining doesn't have to be the best option.  Mining doesn't have to be a good option.  Mining should not be amongst the worst options.  Currently, mining is amongst the worst options. 

Virtually every player that plays Banished thinks at some point "these Mines sure are terrible".

"Iron and Coal mines are not worth it: the yield, or the lack thereof is simply not worth diverting man power to a mine"

"Trade for iron and stone. Quarries and mines are horribly inefficient, lead to more deaths (iirc), and can't be destroyed -- once they are depleted they just take up space."

"Mining: Extremly underpowered that I cannot imagine how this could find its way into the game. Mining and stonecuttery is not "viable" for SEVERAL reasons:

"Banished 07 - Mines and Quarries are a Sucker's Bet"

These are the top results for "Banished Mining" from various sites. 

Most of the goods on the spreadsheet I made range from 1 to 4 in productivity.  1 is relatively bad.  4 is relatively good.  That's ok.  Things can be different.  In the default game Firewood was a 7.  That was too much and you changed it.  Currently mining Iron Ore is a 0.25.  I'm not asking you to make it a 4, or a 5, or a 6.  I'm asking you to make it a 1 or a 1.5.

[RedKetchup]

and what if i change up the value of iron/stone up by 1 or 2 ?
and maybe lower coal by 1 ?

what it will have as effect ? because i really dont want to see people with 20,000 stones and 20,000 irons in storage in a few year

[smurphys7]

There is an "RK Adjusted" sheet on the spreadsheet I made.  I raised the value of Iron Ore, Copper Ore, Coal, Iron, Copper and products from these like tools.  There are some other recipes that will need adjustments.  There are some things like Glass and Bricks that use Coal in some recipes.  They might need changes as well.

Further, I adjusted the value of the Jewelry Recipes.  They are still "Good".  But they are not so good that you could easily make a town that buys every single silver, gold or gem product that arrives via the trading boat and solely makes jewelry.  You no longer need to prevent Traders from bringing silver and gold.  The quantities simply won't be large enough.  Also the margins are no longer high enough to allow ordering and large profits.

I highlighted changes I made in grey.  These changes put Mining into the "bad" territory.  The mining is comparable to digging sand now.

The affect this may have is some people may be more likely to sell some of their early Iron Ore, Copper Ore, and Stone for products.  Then they may lack some building supplies shortly after and either need to mine, or buy it back.  Either way I don't see that as a significant negative.  Perhaps that isn't a negative at all.  It sounds like a complicated decision: "Do I sacrifice a little mid-game for some more stuff right now?"

[RedKetchup]

i just saw you've put alot of more value on some item....

about the jewelry/gold/silver you also need to think abour the rarity of those things. you cant have 1000-5000 gold ore / silver bar, not cant have 2000 diamonds....
so i think all this part is ok for this moment and i am not planing to changes on this. not for the moment.

for the other things... i ll see and we will have to wait what i ll come out with this
thanks you ALOT for your numbers / time to make spreadsheets, very appreciated.

[Nilla]

I've just looked at your spread sheet, @smurphys7. I like most of it. You might remember @RedKetchup, I've suggested similar changes by the trading price of iron, coal, stone and logs years ago. Nice that someone else have the same idea. Of course, like you've suggested, tool production (and other products using these raw materials) also need some adjustments.

The arguments, that came, as I made these suggestions quite at the beginning of modding, was that this would give problems, when mods from different maker are combined. I think these effects should be thought about now as well. Could different trading ports from different modder show different prices for these products, or will always the "mod order rule" choose the price from the highest loaded mod? Would there be products from other mods using these materials that would get a weird balancing with the new prices?

In RK Ed coal is fuel and could replace firewood in houses. I would find it a nice challenge to have to avoid expensive coal from being burned in people's homes. But would everyone?

I would very much like to try these (or similar) higher trading prices. It's still a beta. If it shows unwanted consequences, I don't think it's all too much work, to change it back in your next version.

But I hope you don't change the jewelery chain @RedKetchup. Making gems more common by giving back the possibility to trade for them and the jewels less profitable to compensate this, would of course be possible, but boring. We would just have another trading product, not different from any other. I find the way it is now; rare, random, including some gambling, is something unique and quite ingenious. I don't want to lose that. It's the closest thing to an achievement I have seen in Banished (at least since you gave your cathedral more common building costs).  I think you'll need a healthy settlement to be able to start up a jewel production, at least in a larger scale; it's some kind of reward. This makes it unique, please keep that.

[brads3]

the stop coal burn mod does work and stop houses from burning coal.the houses can still burn charcoal with this mod though. at least, they did when i used it with CC. i haven't checked houses for charcoal,there isn't much on the map yet.so far even with mutliple mods,the firewood is not over productive.3 different small choppers are keeping up with almost 70 houses and some processors.

[smurphys7]

what it will have as effect ? because i really dont want to see people with 20,000 stones and 20,000 irons in storage in a few year

Why do you care if someone has 20,000 Stone?  Using MY adjusted numbers, and assuming that it is all from tier 1 mines, a person who mined 20,000 Stone could have acquired:

225,000 Beeswax. Even with stone valued at 10, this 225k beeswax is worth more than the 20,000 stone.
350,000 Sand. 
266,000 Water. 
400,000 Fish.  All worth more than 20,000 stone

These are with MY adjusted production AND value numbers for stone.  If you would use current numbers, and instead compared Iron Ore, you would need to QUADRUPLE the Beeswax, Sand, Water or Fish produced.

The arguments, that came, as I made these suggestions quite at the beginning of modding, was that this would give problems, when mods from different maker are combined. I think these effects should be thought about now as well.

I agree, this could be problematic.  I try to stick with as few mods possible at a time so my understanding of players who use multiple mods is low.  My thoughts would be that a person would generally be choosing to either put RK mods at the top and have stone and ores be high in value.  The players other option would be having other mods at the top and likely having mines that were either infinite or more productive.  I could be very wrong on that, as I said I try to stick with few mods at a time.  I like being able to easily share towns, jump between towns, and describe how to get exactly what I am doing.

But I hope you don't change the jewelery chain @RedKetchup. Making gems more common by giving back the possibility to trade for them and the jewels less profitable to compensate this, would of course be possible, but boring. We would just have another trading product, not different from any other. I find the way it is now; rare, random, including some gambling, is something unique and quite ingenious.

Personally, I just want to make sure that traders are still able to bring in every good.  Combining this topic with the previous one, preventing traders from bringing types of items on the traders would have significant affects when used with other mods. 

The Jewelry products have a huge range of possible adjustments.  I'm confident a place can be found where it isn't easy to make a solely jewelry trading town while keeping Jewelry making fun, exciting and unique.

[brads3]

      most trade values will be mod order dependant.i know of no trade post that sets prices differently itself than the main mod.the only 1 that might be different is the nordic trade dock post. more often is trade posts or merchants not taking all items. i am not even sure the values of vanilla items are set in the mods.like coal,iron,stone,etc. those values would change per RED's mod.not an issue.
i agree with taking precious out of incoming trades as long as the merchants will still buy the items. i think there are very few cases where a player would want to import any of the precious items.you would have to be trying to make a ruby ring or something very specific. even then if the mod was above the RK EC, it should override it.
       i do have plans to test the my precious mod above the RK.with the north above RK above the my precious,there is conflicts. silver and silver ore are the same but different.confuses the game. in that case the my preious failed to function. the silver,gold,and gems that were mined from the my precious mine was tagged per RED's mod.
 

[Nilla]

I've looked a bit more at your spreadsheet @smurphys7 and I'm not comfortable with the production numbers. Or there is something I don't understand. It should be easy enough to calculate a theoretic value, using the "recipe" of the product and the work required, when you know how many "work" a Banni can make each year. Is this the 480? (In that case what is 240?)

This theoretic number will of course never be reached. It would be the output, if he could produce without leaving his workplace a whole year. If it was that simple, we could estimate a normal good output from our sites; simple products without input would be close to this theoretic value, products made from one ingredient with a low weight, would also be quite close, several heavy ingredients would give values far away from this theoretic value. For some products this thoughts are accurate, for others not. And above all, you will never see an output higher than this theoretic value. But these values do exist. I've seen such values and since it looks like you're also looking at production numbers @smurphys7, I think you have, too.

If these numbers aren't reliable, the value/time ratio, which you're using to compare production sites, also have a limited use. Maybe it could be used, if you compare very similar sites/products but hardly anything else.

[smurphys7]

The Value per Time (Column B) is based on the theoretical output comparing if every person worked at their job an equal amount of time. 

The Value per Time numbers are extremely useful.  That columns answers the question "If I made a town based around optimally producing a product how effective would that production be".  I have used this column to create multiple towns based around a single or a small amount of products.  By knowing how economically effective an optimally efficient production would be I can know how many workers are needed to support a specific sized population.

For example: I made this Mining --> Coke Fuel Town with Colonial Charter and RK NMT.  In that town I made a single Mine and the Fuel Refiners needed to turn that amount of Coal into Coke Fuel.  The only other employed citizens in town produced no goods.  The town employed about 60 Citizens and supported a population of about 300-400. 

I have made similar towns for a variety of other products.  The "Value per Time" column calculates how efficient each town will be and how many workers will be needed to support the population.

The production values (Columns N and O) are only listed to allow comparison to things like Gathering Huts, Fishing Docks and Hunting Cabins.  The low production values are based on the Apiaries where my workers were getting about 500 Honey per year.  Perhaps that town was significantly inefficient in some way.  The high production values are based on Roast Venison.  My town produced about 750 Roast Venison per year per worker.  Again, perhaps that town was inefficient and that number was not accurate.

[brads3]

      the Bannies have now gone on strike. they wrote a note and a merchant delivered it to the Lnading Fort.

"To the Royal Crown:
                We are tired from hauling the expensive marble stones just to suppport your huge castles.Since you no longer allow us to drink YOUR expenssive wines,we have gone on full strike.We no longer will mine for expensive gold,silver,or gems.We refuse to burn thatch to heat our tiny houses so you can have your high cost oak firewood.No more fine fur coats will be sent over the mighty seas.
                We banished ourselves to this land to explore and live as we choose.We refuse to be treated as slaves to the Yuppie attitiudes and get rich quick ideals.Our people have refused to work for such tyrrany.None of us came here to live under the Royal thumbs. We came here to live in peace and work with nature.
            while we have toiled away trying to grow food and survive in this new world,you have lived in luxury in your fancy castles.We fight off bears and mountain lions.Our hunters hardly sleep at night listening to the howl of wolves.All so you can have your high class life-style.There are many more struggles that we face here just to survive.Your sporatic measley shipments of supplies is not enough to feed our growing populations.
       If you want any more fancy stones,We suggest you grab a pickaxe,row across the huge sea,and start digging.You can swim out and ask the beavers for their nice furs also.Way before you have a bank full of gold ,you will learn. You can't eat stone and you can't eat gold."

           they sent word to Boston to dump any tea into the harbor.Word reached Baltimore to sink any incoming ships.Texas has been ordered to build a wall or dig a moat with alligators.Voo-doo dolls have been made in the  bayous. Blacksmiths have been ordered to make larger canons.Even the Indians are lighting singal fires to call Aliens.there is great consfusion everywhere.

[RedKetchup]

i nade some couple of changes all around ....

in the zip, should be all those templates i edited.
not sure overall how it will look like in your spreadsheet

[Paegin]

I'm trying it out, and I have investigated EVERY possible tab, but I cannot find the open sky mines. I see your 3 quarries, and salt mine, but no "open sky mines". Where are they located?

[RedKetchup]

Community Icon => RK => RK Resource toolbar => The 3 icons with the mine icon.

the "open sky mines" are kinda a "quarry" in a way : it is open, can only be placed on flat ground, no mountains.

[Paegin]

which one mines gems? Only ones I see are iron/ore, stone, and random.