You want it darker?

[Paeng]

What do you think of an candlemaker addon?

Sure, that's cool, gives an alternative product for just plain honey 

Trade value... well, products with nothing but trade value have their place, sure - though I prefer if they come in a small chain with other, productive uses. 

[kid1293]

Trade value... well, products with nothing but trade value have their place, sure - though I prefer if they come in a small chain with other, productive uses. 

Just my thought. I think upgradeable mines sounds very interesting.
So, candles to dig deeper and sell the rest.

[Denis de la Rive]

You could also have candles as a building material for certain decorative items. They could also be used in religious buildings, and in an abbey for book copying. Playing without CC for a while has shown me that the lack of production chains can be an issue, when you usually play CC. You could think of expanding on existing chains to make more refined or involved products. I would need to do some research to find some ideas, and there is nothing wrong with replicating elements found in CC, since many players find it a bit large.

[brads3]

just to add to this. candles is used for the 1st upgrade to the mines and quarries.the next step they use oil lamps and the mines are unlimited. oil lamps are also used for lamp posts in CC. KID's nice tiny mines don't let you  dig deeper.hmmmm  NILLA did the math and the trade value of CC candles is less than the beeswax itself.she did a village blog and  tested many CC production chains and said that for the time invested msny of the production goods are too low on trade values.she actually made a chart.

[kid1293]

Just a reply. I don't have CC numbers but I thought about it.
I use 10 beeswax (value=1) to make 3-4 candles (value=8). There is a good profit.
Maybe a cheat if someone think so. 
Then again, use CC and you definitely don't cheat...

[AzemOcram]

If your chandlers are educated, you make a profit of 2 because it takes 30 beeswax, tallow, or blubber. If they are uneducated, you lose 6 trade points.

[kid1293]

So CC use 30 beeswax?

Thanks @AzemOcram !

If I use 24 they will go even with uneducated and 8 plus with educated.

That is not much profit.

[Denis de la Rive]

I have all the CC numbers and did a balance study, (if you want that PM me), that has yet to be published, and yes it is a bit unbalanced: 30 beeswax input @ 1 value for 3/4 output @ 8, for 24/32. CC apiarys produce both honey and beeswax so you have to take that into consideration: work 20, work time 4, for 27/32 honey, 18/18 beeswax. I believe that Banished should have one or two high value trade chains, (some would call cheats), to help players meet challenges like harsh climate, or playing with disasters.

You must also consider the historical context where religious needs can out weight industrial ones. Also you can consider making the cost of the production buildings, or the maximum number allowed ways to balance the whole. I think something like 25 to 50% profit is something to consider. if you want a totally capitalist formula, to take into account investment, work etc, I have one.

Esterb, created some spreadsheets that give you all CC's actual numbers you can find here: http://blackliquidsoftware.com/index.php?/topic/988-cc-175-spreadsheets/.

Balance is a very important part of designing mods and you are right to ask questions on the impact of production chains.

[kid1293]

Thanks @Denis de la Rive , I appreciate the link to the spreadsheets.

So after thinking a lot there is no real use for a Candlemaker except to 'lighten up'
Discrepancy's mines. No use in trading candles and if you have CC, you have candles.
I have always valued Discrepancy's work...

If I go for no candles I have no use for beeswax, sorry @The Pilgrim .

What do you say, folks?

[RedKetchup]

it looks great !

[Necora]

That candle maker is a nice building.

On the subject of candles and such chains, here is some food for thought. Now, it is just an idea, not a suggestion, just something to discuss. In my opinion, something that our production chains don't take into account very well is resource loss in production, or at least the amount of resources needed to make something. The reason certain items have high value is because they take a lot of time or a lot of resources or both to produce. Yet, we make 30 candles from 30 beeswax (roughly) and get a value boost. Now, I don't know IRL how much beeswax would be lost making a candle, but certainly from 30 pieces of beeswax you can maybe make 30 small candles, but they are not going to light a church or a mine. Why not have 5 candles from 30 beeswax (imagine them as big candles that take 6 lumps of wax to make 1 candle) but a higher trade value? So you are still making a decent profit, but from less items produced. One of the problems we have is that there is no end to chains, i.e. we make nice chains for candles that get used to upgrade one or two mines, make some fancy churches, and are then left with a lot of trade goods. Because of the relatively high conversion rates of things like beeswax to candles, these chains are relatively quick to complete and we are then left with producing a lot of candles that take up storage. I would rather have a higher value to candles, but less produced, and a lot needed to make your mine upgrade or fancy cathedral so your mines are more of an effort to upgrade, that fancy church is a longer term dream. You also don't fill up the stores with a lot of candles, but still have a good trade value to them.

I wanted to do this with some of my products. Think about maple syrup. When we make maple syrup, it takes something like 40 gallons of sap to produce 1 gallon of syrup. Yet, the value of syrup is high to account for the production loss and time it takes to tap and boil so much sap. We can't really do this in game, because high value on foods doesn't really work as it is all eaten the same, so you are just starving your bannies with such losses, but in terms of production items such as candles, why not?

I know CC has already set the gauntlet in terms of trade values and high:low production values, but I really think it would be worth rethinking how we make these sort of production items.

Just my two cents.

[kid1293]

Thanks @Necora . Two cents are two cents.

My thoughts goes to production loss and value.
It so hard to implement in game if there are several steps waiting after my product.
If I change CC numbers and raise the value - what in the future? Will someone think
in a different direction and change my values?

I have decided on my own to release the candlemaker with a requirement of 24 candles.
It is so close to CC that it nearly doesn't matter.
That makes it even for uneducated. There is no significant loss in making candles.
It also gives an edge by adding value 2 to each candle with educated worker.
It can be traded with a little gain.
I also want to release it to honor Discrepancy's work. He is right now dependent on
trading to get candles for the mines. All in all - trade value, a good cause and a greeting. Not bad.

Oh. I forgot. 24 beeswax to make 4 candles are 6 units/candle.
Do they collect beeswax with a coffeespoon?

[Necora]

@kid1293 two cents are better than one cents, unless its a different currency.

Oh. I forgot. 24 beeswax to make 4 candles are 6 units/candle.
Do they collect beeswax with a coffeespoon?

Or, they make giant candles that would light a church or a mine but define a unit of beeswax? Is one beeswax unit a chunk, that might render a tea cup candle, or all the wax from a whole hive that might make one of those season burning candles?  Another great aspect of ambiguity in Banished world. I have no idea how much wax a hive will produce IRL, but that decrease in number would also account for inevitable loss during production so even if the unit of beeswax is rather large, not necessarily all of it will make it into a candle. But anyway, it was just a thought about production chains in general, rather than candle specific. What ever numbers you choose will obviously work.

[brads3]

this is 1 of those ideas that would make more sence if we could get the bannies to use the items.some players hate making items just to trade away. it really doesn't make sence. i do like how candles are used by mines but wish houses could use them also. then players would like the idea of expanding. like you both say food production works the same way. u need to input a lot of grain to get flour or fruit to get jam,yet all food eats as 1 unit.sadly the game limits us on such things. i tried to come up with ideas on how to force the bannies to use different items especially households like candles and furniture.no idea i have come up with works. if food would spoil then preserving it with pottery would make sence.even if things affected the happiness more than now it would give us some options.so much potential is limited by the game itself.

[Gatherer]

Unless some modder tags candles as woodfuel to heat homes...