RKEditorChoice BETA13 open

[smurphys7]

A few balance questions:

I upgraded a "Rock Quarry" to the top tier.  I produced about 50-60 Coal per worker per year.  That's about 250-350 Trade Value per worker per year created.  That's pretty low.  That's especially low for a job that has frequent deaths and, I assume, uses a lot of tools.  The tier 3 Rock Quarry had a progress bar.  Does it run out?  I removed the Tier 3 Rock Quarry.  It left a large crater.

Rock Quarries seemed to be finite, irremovable, and worst of all, terribly inefficient.  Is my understanding of this accurate?  To me, it seems like it has similar balance to the base, unmodded game.  To me, that means the only reason I'd consider building a quarry is for thematic reasons.  Otherwise it is better to do virtually anything else and trade for the mining supplies.

I put fish through an Old Dry Shack and an Old Smokery.  Both seemed to produce about 1500 product per year with 2 workers.  Both turned 12 Fish into 24 Fish products.  One used Firewood.  The other used nothing.  Also, the one that used Firewood required Glass and Iron to construct.  The Old Dry Shack seems to be far cheaper and easier to create as well as being vastly more effective.

[RedKetchup]

something someone asked, a tool to collect everything "but" the grass.

Just noticed, that this tool doesn't clear stone either. Looks like it ought to.

you are right !!! just fixed it !

[RedKetchup]

I put fish through an Old Dry Shack and an Old Smokery.  Both seemed to produce about 1500 product per year with 2 workers.  Both turned 12 Fish into 24 Fish products.  One used Firewood.  The other used nothing.  Also, the one that used Firewood required Glass and Iron to construct.  The Old Dry Shack seems to be far cheaper and easier to create as well as being vastly more effective.

the dry shack only double up meats for citizen consumption it has the lowest value

while the 2 others can use other mats like firewood or salt, the finished product has +1 value.

A few balance questions:

I upgraded a "Rock Quarry" to the top tier.  I produced about 50-60 Coal per worker per year.  That's about 250-350 Trade Value per worker per year created.  That's pretty low.  That's especially low for a job that has frequent deaths and, I assume, uses a lot of tools.  The tier 3 Rock Quarry had a progress bar.  Does it run out?  I removed the Tier 3 Rock Quarry.  It left a large crater.

Rock Quarries seemed to be finite, irremovable, and worst of all, terribly inefficient.  Is my understanding of this accurate?  To me, it seems like it has similar balance to the base, unmodded game.  To me, that means the only reason I'd consider building a quarry is for thematic reasons.  Otherwise it is better to do virtually anything else and trade for the mining supplies.

the original vanilla Iron mine has 1 product made every 60 work units "    int _workRequired = 60; " limit 2000, left unusable spot when destroyed
the original vanilla Quarry has 1 product made every 10 works units "    int _workRequired = 10; " limit 2000, left unusable huge hole when destroyed

thats the number i just checked in original files , 30 sec ago.

my mines :
Iron Quarry (Iron+Copper) LVL1 : produce every 40 work units "   int _workRequired = 40; " limit 2000, can be upgraded
Iron Quarry (Iron+Copper) LVL2 : produce every 45 work units "   int _workRequired = 45; " limit 3000, can be upgraded
Iron Quarry (Iron+Copper) LVL3 : produce every 50 work units "   int _workRequired = 50; " limit 4000, left unusable medium hole when destroyed.

Rock Quarry (Stone+Coal+Salt) LVL1 : produce every 40 work units "   int _workRequired = 40; " limit 2000, can be upgraded
Rock Quarry (Stone+Coal+Salt) LVL2 : produce every 45 work units "   int _workRequired = 45; " limit 3000, can be upgraded
Rock Quarry (Stone+Coal+Salt) LVL3 : produce every 50 work units "   int _workRequired = 50; " limit 4000, left unusable medium hole when destroyed.

Random Quarry (all the things) LVL1 : produce every 40 work units "   int _workRequired = 40; " limit 2000, can be upgraded
Random Quarry (all the things) LVL2 : produce every 45 work units "   int _workRequired = 45; " limit 3000, can be upgraded
Random Quarry (all the things) LVL3 : produce every 50 work units "   int _workRequired = 50; " limit 4000, left unusable medium hole when destroyed.

thats the numbers of my files. Yes i agree about the stone quarry, and i admit i didnt expected that number "10 work units" ! i was totally aware about the iron mine (60 work units) though and i didnt checked the stone one , thinking it was the same. my bad.
But if you still compare my iron with vanilla iron, it is 33% better. 40 works units instead of 60. also the vanilla feature are limited to 2000 total, i allow 2000+3000+4000= 9000 total instead of 2000.
I know some mods offer unlimited resources and maybe CC offer more levels or unlimited after x upgrades..... but i am not this kind of person.
if you ask why lvl 1 takes 40, lvl2 takes 45 and lvl 50.... in my mind, i figure they go deeper in the earth so it takes more time.

but i agree, i need to take a decision about the Rock one. we also need to keep in mind, it offer not just Stone but also Coal and Salt. In vanilla Coal is from Iron Mine and Coal take 60 work units to be produce ! and if i lower down the Rock Quarry to 10 or 20 work.... i also lower Coal to 10 - 20 works units !!!!


so what you all think about those numbers ?

[smurphys7]

I would compare the following formula for all production:

( Output Value - Input Value ) / Production Time
or...
Created Value per time.

I don't know these precise values from my empirical "just playing" experience.  I would get about 500 Honey per year per worker.  That's 500 Trade Value (TV) per year.  I would get about 300-350 TV per miner per year.  From a min/maxing perspective, why would I mine at all?  Why don't I just make Honey and trade for stone, iron, coal etc.?  This notion is especially true if making honey kills less people, uses less tools, and is infinite and removable.

Personally, I think mining should be one of the most valuable possible jobs.  "Boom Towns" and "Mining Towns" were a thing in this time period.  Mining existed.  Mining made people huge money.  Then it was gone and the town had to do something else.  I would consider tripling, quadrupling or maybe even more the productivity of mines.  Then they empty and you have to do something else.  Currently, Mining is one of the worst possible options.  Honey should be one of the worst possible options.  Honey can be placed anywhere, is cheap, etc.

Personally, I would make honey slightly less effective, perhaps 4/5ths of what it is now.  Whatever its Created Value per Time is I would have that be the minimum.  Then I would put Mining on the other end.  I think it should be the most profitable.  It kills people, its dangerous, its temporary, and its thematic.  I would put everything else in between.

I am using RK Editor's Choice BETA 11.  In a Trading Post "Dried Fish" have a value of "1".  "Smoked Fish" have a value of "1".  Where is the "+1 value" ?  Both seem to have an input of 12 Fish and an output of 24 Fish per cycle.

From my empirical experience, here are some "Created Values" per year.  Trade Value per 1 worker per 1 year.

500 Apiary (Honey) : 500 Per Year total created
~300 Rock Quarry Tier 3 (Coal) : 50 Per Year total created
375 Old Dry Shack (Fish) : 750 Per Year total created
225 Old Smokery (Fish) : 750 per Year total created
375 Wooden Butcher : 750 Per Year total created
1008 Perfumery : 330 Per Year total created

Perfume Example:
12 TV Output (2 Perfumes Made)
- 6 TV Input (4 Flowers + 2 Water used)
= 6 Value Created per cycle
I made 330 Perfumes in a year.  330 * 6 = 2016 TV created.  50% is costs.  2016 / 2 = 1008 per year.

My numbers may not accurately reflect the formulas.  I have some inefficiency I could correct in my towns.

I'm confusing myself with late night maths.  Editing to correct.

[smurphys7]

As I said before rambling about pointless math, you want to check Created Value / Time.  Plug in some numbers here:

Coal: Rock Quarry Tier 3:
6 (Value Created, or 1 Coal)
50 Work
= .12 Value per WorkTime.  (6 / 50)

Perfume
6 (Value Created: 12 (2 Perfume) - 6 (4 Flower 2 Water)
X Work <--- You put in this.  My guess is this number is like 15 or 20.
= ?

[RedKetchup]

   int _workRequired = 16;
for perfume

[smurphys7]

Is there an easy way I can get my wands on all the Work Required numbers?  Or is the best way for me to just ask for a bunch?  If you give me that work number I will compare the economic efficiency etc.

[RedKetchup]

you can get all the files if you install the toolkit


heres all the templates : .zip

[smurphys7]

Creating spreadsheet.  Thanks

[RedKetchup]

Creating spreadsheet.  Thanks

np

btw, when in vanilla you had to mine for coal at 60 work units for a value of 6 (coal value 6) ... were you doing it ?
6/60=0.10

[smurphys7]

If you are asking if I ever used a Quarry or a Mine in non-modded Banished, the answer would be generally no, I would not use either.  Doing anything else was generally better than using a mine or quarry.  Generally, even a poor fishing dock drastically outperformed a mine/quarry.  That doesn't even account for the big, ugly, non-removable, killing people, burning tools aspect.

Sorry if I was not specific before.  Is there a way I can get my hands on the RK Editor's Choice WorkTime numbers without you manually typing each one somewhere?  The template files you sent me seem to be for the non-modded game.  Am I doing this wrong?  Do I need to use the downloaded PKM file of the mod and generate the appropriate files I can look through?

[Denis de la Rive]

I do not agree that mining should be a profit engine, that is not the way it works in vanilla, which must always be the bar we measure a mod by. I looked at the real numbers posted by Red, and I find that the advantages of more total resources, and choice of product are very balanced. I think you, (Red), should look at making the work for the stone mine more like the vanilla one, possibly a bit more because of the added choice of what you get. When you consider the other factors like how easy it is to place and the size it uses when compared to vanilla, I find it is well balanced. I agree that making time longer makes sense considering the advantage of longer use. When you examine a mods impact you must consider all the aspects, not just the raw numbers. How many of the mines fit in the space needed for a vanilla quarry, and like Red wrote you get 9000 instead of 2000. You must also consider the building resources, and time in your calculations, you would need to build 3.5 quarries to get the same production.

As for the danger, (risk of death), this is a different function, I think you can change that, but I am not certain, even if you can, why should working the same job in a different location have a different number. What you are looking at is simply on variable that should be part of the Banished physics, like distance/time.

I also find that your calculations are based on one playing style, not on an understanding of the whole game experience, or how others play the game. When producing raw materials it is important to consider how a player will need them, or the limits of his situation. By your logic a player would be forced into a trading economy, (you are forcing when you build a trading post), many players do not like to play this way, or would need to trade for other things. Other factors that have to be considered include how often a trader will bring what you need. If a mod maker chose your way of doing things then he is imposing a certain economy, but that means you need to change traders, prices, number of items carried. It becomes a very complicated project. If you make mining the centre of the economy, you are forcing a different way of doing things. I get that some players are interested in maximizing production, but this should not be the purpose of a mod. What do you want a balance and interesting mod, or simply a mechanical production machine?

Historically it took 1000s of years to invent modern production methods. Some cultures measured successful production by other factors than the capitalist model, like religion, or ease of access. Sometimes, simply because it was not made by an outsider. Banished is a pre-industrial society and that should be part of how the economy works. Considering a mining fueled economy, again you are being modern, exports of common raw resources is also something that is not historically valid. Why pay for something you can collect nearby, quality is not important in the context of basic survival. We pay for marble, its pretty, but a granite block is just as good for making a wall. What works is more important than how it looks when your society is not rich. I do not even want to consider the transportation problems since this is not part of the Banished physics.

On the trading post, thank you for the information, it is too bad we can not change that part. You can control the number? That could still work.

It looks like I really need to PM you soon, Red, about creating some documentation.

smurphys7, if you are interested in discussing production formulas, you need to understand that there many variables beyond those you use. Most of these are impossible to estimate since they involve time/distance. I have not examined the vanilla numbers in the way you suggest, but it might be an interesting subject. You should look at the vanilla values to get an idea of what Luke intended, I don't have the time right now.

[RedKetchup]

sorry i was away ...

my templates ? ... hmmm .... it is a bigger .zip since alot of templates in it

[RedKetchup]

about mines, yeah there is the fact you can place them everywhere.... and they are alot smaller.
a thing i can do though, reduce the death % to put is equal to anything else....
reduce work time at around 30 WU. we need to count the fact it can also provide coal, and coal at 25WU thats more than double better of the 60WU vanilla iron mine coal and lower the other to 35/40/45 the other mines.

i was watching some people playing with it and i was finding they had hard to decide to throw a full 6 in mines. they were throwing 1 citizens... and barely 2.
vanilla mine and quarry were set at 15 workers by default and a max of 30 workers. so with 1 worker... sometime 2.... you cannot expect to get tons of resources.... i will give you a axe pick and ask you to go smash it on rocks all day lol. and tell me how many squared stones you made in your day LOL

[Nilla]

The basic problem is that vanilla Banished isn't very well balanced. You have these "useless" mines and quarries. (I'm like you @smurphys7 usually don't build any, for the same reason as you) in the other extreme; firewood and ale, with quite a ridiculous profit, if you chose to trade it. (I have built big cities using this, but now i avoid it; too boring)

What should a modder do? Relate his buildings to vanilla, and keep this imbalance or create his own, better balanced values? I think there is no "perfect solution". You can choose the way, of @Tom Sawyer in the North; remodelling most everything and get a good balanced game with the consequences, that many other mods are, let's not say impossible, but hard to use or at least make no sense. As far as I understand @RedKetchup, that's not what you want.

I think, you're trying to find a compromise; improving the worse vanilla values, without turning everything totally around. If this is your goal, I find you're succeeding quite well. But of course, your mines/ quarries aren't very profitable, I have "complained" about the too profitable apiaries (and wells), too. But it's a give and take, I remember an old song "since you can't please everyone, you got to please yourself". Keep that in mind. Listen to us players, but make your own decisions. It has worked fine in all the years you've been modding this game.