World of Banished

Hi!
I compiled a mod with all my tiny stuff for myself.
(TownHall Market Trader Quarry Mine)

I thought you could use it if you want.
It IS savegame compatible IF you change from within the game
- so put it in moddirectory, start game and enable it - quit - restart
and load your game.
Disable the old tiny mods and enable this one.
Should work.

It is on the toolbar so it could be crowded there.

There is nothing new in it so I put it here, exclusively!
edit - is now in download

Picture is taken after too much modding. :)

It is a very bumpy ride trying to retexture bannies.

Clothes can be done but faces, no it won't work.
You need the models to retexture faces.
I haven't included my messy tests.
I only show that I tried to map the bannies
and substitute clothes on one of them (greenface).

This is not something to continue since I want
faces too.

Interesting. Hope you succeed.

The resolution is so low, a new face is hardly noticeable.
See for yourself.

hehe yeah we need to not look too near ^^

I tested another, it's even worse :)
I quit!

One thing I learned is that you can improved the existing textures
and get a small improvement on the bannies.

It is nothing much (!) but if you have several hundred running around
you notice that it is sharper and that is an improvement.

Here is what I did.

Hey, Tom!

Time to make some vikings and shield-maidens.

Oh yeah. But with this "male" model it's impossible to make a strong viking. The same with our mohawk warriors.^^ But of course, new clothing in a nordic style would be nice.

But, you can make them taller than regular Bannies.

Sorry Turis, we have extracted the textures but not the models so it is
impossible to make 'tall and fierce-looking nordmen'.

Quote from: kid1293 on August 24, 2016, 07:12:12 AM
I tested another, it's even worse :)
I quit!

Hahaha! They're terrifying.

On a side note, I've always been fascinated by those little kids with the giant sideburns.

While we are here with the bannies -
(this is maybe not a tiny thought)

I want to learn more and are experimenting with
different values for time to see what happens.
It's time-consuming (pun intended) because you
have to play many years to get results.

For a mod to make the game go in real-time
you have to change the value -
   float _agePerSecond = 0.000277777;
to -
   float _agePerSecond = 0.0000555554;

It is 1/5 of original value as Gordon Dry pointed out.
(I've got these numbers from other sources too, so it is
not a rip-off) :)
---

The numbers in the first part should be multiplied by 5
to get the years value -
   float _adultAge = 2.0;   (10 years)
   float _marriageAge = 2.0;  (10 years)
   float _marrigeRange = 4.0; (20 years)
   (together with last value gives max marriage age = 30 years)
   float _childMinAge = 2.2; (11 years)
   float _childMaxAge = 8.0; (40 years)

   float _maxAge = 15.0; (75 years)
   float _maxAgeTolerance = 3.0; (plus/minus 15 years)

I changed these to -
   float _adultAge = 2.0; (10 years)
   float _marriageAge = 3.0; (15 years - approx. at school end, see later)
   float _marrigeRange = 3.0; ( 15 years)
   (together with last value gives max marriage age = 30 years)
   float _childMinAge = 3.0; (15 years)
   float _childMaxAge = 9.0; (45 years)

   float _maxAge = 15.0; (same)
   float _maxAgeTolerance = 3.0; (same)

---

I know that in these values, 300 equals a month -
   float _childTerm = 900.0;
   float _postChildTerm = 1800.0;
   float _postChildTermTol = 5400.0;
So in original game they were pregnant only 3 months.
Then 6 months pause before getting pregnant again.
It could be delayed another 18 months (3rd value),
but usually they go for it.

I changed to -
   float _childTerm = 2700.0;
   float _postChildTerm = 2700.0;
   float _postChildTermTol = 5400.0;
9 months pregnant - 9 months pause - plus 18 months.
In game it was about 2 years difference between the children.
Rather fast, but possible to control by refusing to build
new homes for the grown-up children.

---

Schooltime is even worse. It has (what I can see) absolutely
no mathematical or calendar connection.
These are original values -
   int _requiredEducation = 400;
   float _educationTimeLength = 3.0;
   float _educationWorkLength = 10.0;
It gave little over one year in school.
These values seem to be proportional and not connected to
how fast the game runs.

I changed to -
   int _requiredEducation = 1400;   (about 3 1/2 time more)
   float _educationTimeLength = 10.5;   (about 3 1/2 longer)
   float _educationWorkLength = 10.0;
And got about 4.5 - 5.2 years in school.
These values will make some older students move out and marry
at 15 while still being a student.

Edit: I had one at 16 years before school end. He had a rather
long way to his school.
---

Discuss and let's find out the values behind a proper real-time mod.

Here are the files if you want to make a test-run

Sorry to interrupt your chain of thoughts. :)

I got a request for a minimize button on vanilla town hall.
Don't know about any conflicts. Maybe CC.
Works on save game.

Thanks kid1293. I don't use CC so I didn't know it was already done there.

You can just ask if you think of any other small changes.
They are easy to make and it's easy to make several together
to save space.
Slopeconforming cropfield, autopickup on cropfield/orchard,
quiter animals, change the appearance of the professionlist
and so on...

I know I can not do every persons wishlist but I can try. :)

Kid - THANKS again for the Lighthouse!  Any chance you can come up with a NEW woodcutter?  Maybe a "Tiny" woodcutter. (unless I missed it ...... I haven't found one) and I don't use CC.  :)

this 1 will work n not dependant on Cc
http://colonialcharter.com/index.php/forum/kralyergs-kave-of-krazy-kontraptions/2068-mini-buildings.
mini hospital tent,mini workshop,woodcutter,hunter,gatherer,etc.

Thanks,  brads3 - I looked at it but I am looking for a stand-alone mod, not a multi-mod. If I can't find one then I'll use Kralyerg's.   Thanks Again !   ;)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2oKJ9gdaP7dU29DMG90Y2FEUzg/view?usp=sharing
that 1?

@OldnRetired Try this... Proved in the North. :)

(http://www.zockerbar.de/banished/ChopWood.jpg)

brads3 & Tom Sawyer -   Thanks for both links!   I'm building a large town WITHOUT using ANY of the vanilla buildings and using ONLY mods from WOB (no CC or any non-WOB). I've replaced everything but just could not find a nice substitute chopper.   ;D

that sounds neat. did u find a good school and church? 1 other note on the mini mod,it does have a mini forester with a much smaller radius. very helpful early in game so u can have logs but still leaves u space to expand your town and farms.

Here another version. ;D

(http://www.zockerbar.de/banished/ChopWoodForGirls.jpg)

brad3 - Yes, I have two different schools (tanypredator & kid1293)  and 2 different churches and I'm already planning to add embx61's church, too.
Also using kid1293 Forest Outpost and various mods from RedK & Discrepancy & Tom Sawyer.
Just having fun!   ;D

Tom S - Thanks for the ChopWoodForGirls mod.  The more variety, the more fun.  I got tired of all the same vanilla "type" mods. Keeping my interest in the game with WOB mods.     ;D

Next project will be your "North" mod ...  I've already tried the Nordic Landscape mod ... really nice!

@OldnRetired - I do have a 'Tiny' version!

http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=90

Look a bit down on the page.

@OldnRetired, I would very much like to see some screenshots from your 100% modded town. Why not a small review in the blog-section of this page?

Its so nice to see many new versions of the usual suspects, it makes for some great scenes. I'm currently alpha testing mega-mod that combines, CC, and many of the mods on WoB, and like @OldnRetired doing so with almost no vanilla buildings. http://banishedpeople.freeforums.org/st-edward-t333.html (http://banishedpeople.freeforums.org/st-edward-t333.html).

It almost takes my breath away - so big!

Thanks for sharing! We look forward to release!

Quote from: Denis de la Rive on August 29, 2016, 11:31:24 AM
Its so nice to see many new versions of the usual suspects, it makes for some great scenes. I'm currently alpha testing mega-mod that combines, CC, and many of the mods on WoB, and like @OldnRetired doing so with almost no vanilla buildings. http://banishedpeople.freeforums.org/st-edward-t333.html (http://banishedpeople.freeforums.org/st-edward-t333.html).

I just had a look at your town over at banishedpeople (never been there before) and saw some of my decorative trees that I started working on with Kral late last year. I had no idea there was a megamod or that my trees were in it. Not complaining, just surprised. The first release of those trees should be out shortly for everyone to use, and there will be a lot more than what you've already seen.

As for buildings, I love seeing new versions of things we already have. More styles, more choice... it's a good thing.  :)

Kid1293 - I guess I missed your tiny wooodchopper!  There are so many mods this year in WOB that it's easy to get lost tracking everyones mods.  I'll include yours in my town, too!   :)

Nilla - Once I learn how to upload screenshots I will post some.  I have no time for any blog. Between my health issues and the health issues of my bride of 55 years it's not possible.  We have too many "Senior Benefits" of the wrong kind. So be patient for screenshots.  I have been following you & Tom Sawyer in your Nordic discussions & love it!  A good insight into your area of the world! THANKS !!    :)

Quote from: elemental on August 29, 2016, 03:46:58 PM

Quote from: Denis de la Rive on August 29, 2016, 11:31:24 AM
Its so nice to see many new versions of the usual suspects, it makes for some great scenes. I'm currently alpha testing mega-mod that combines, CC, and many of the mods on WoB, and like @OldnRetired doing so with almost no vanilla buildings. http://banishedpeople.freeforums.org/st-edward-t333.html (http://banishedpeople.freeforums.org/st-edward-t333.html).

I just had a look at your town over at banishedpeople (never been there before) and saw some of my decorative trees that I started working on with Kral late last year. I had no idea there was a megamod or that my trees were in it. Not complaining, just surprised. The first release of those trees should be out shortly for everyone to use, and there will be a lot more than what you've already seen.

As for buildings, I love seeing new versions of things we already have. More styles, more choice... it's a good thing.  :)

I am just a tester, and assumed "K" had discussed this with everyone. It will be a way to avoid conflicts and such, and is still growing, I used v.03, but .04 is already out, and .05 being planned.

As for your work, its so wonderful, can't wait to see more, the mod is not going to be ready any time soon, its still alpha, so your mod will shine.

Yes we have a nice quiet spot, it was started by Paeng, where we can showoff our skill. I hope I did well with your creation.  :)

Quote from: OldnRetired on August 29, 2016, 04:57:11 PM
Nilla - Once I learn how to upload screenshots I will post some.  I have no time for any blog. Between my health issues and the health issues of my bride of 55 years it's not possible.  We have too many "Senior Benefits" of the wrong kind. So be patient for screenshots.  I have been following you & Tom Sawyer in your Nordic discussions & love it!  A good insight into your area of the world! THANKS !!    :)

Yes these "benefits" !  :(  I'm well aware of those, too. Opposite to you, they give me all time in the world to sit at my computer. My illness makes it impossible to do much other things, than to sit, lay, down, sit, maybe 15 minutes household or garden work, lay down, sit, if I have a good day; go to the village shop for some grocery or into the forest to get some mushrooms or berries................

I make it this way uploading screenshots;
F11 (with menus) or F12 (without menus) makes the screenshot, if you haven't changed the settings.
Now to the only thing, that made me some trouble at first; find the screenshots at your computer. At mine they were not in the same folder as the game.
Open the screenshot with MS Paint (or some other similar program)
Rename it. It's a *.bmp file that's huge. I change it to *.jpg
Press "+ Attachments and other options" just below where you write your entry and post it.

There are other ways, too but this works fine for me.

Looking forward to your pictures.

@OldnRetired - You have 'post' in the Garden Shed. :)

Nilla - Thanks for the upload info.  You & I have similar "Benefits".  Some days are much worse than others. On the bad days you can't even concentrate on anything .. not even Banished ... LOL
I'll post some pix in a day or so.

Kid1293 - When I saw that duplicate .pkm filename I thought you might fix it .........  More buildings ..... Thanks! 

I just want the readers of this thread to know ....... Sorry for no posts about my no-vanilla-buildings town.   :(
Too many medical problems for my spouse & I.  I'll post more photos and a description ... hopefully in 2 - 3 days.
Here is a small teaser ......   ;)

@OldnRetired
I don't know what to say.
I feel empathy and hope that you and your wife are OK.
No need to rush things, we (most of us) have time to wait
and see what's around the corner. There IS a life out there!
(Sounds like a line from X-files. :) )

Get well!

I thought you placed mushroom farm in between your crop farm, then realized its a road. hahahaha

@kid1293
I just downloaded your "proper time" mod. I promised you for some time, that I would test it. But I would like to have a faster start. I don't think you've published one of your special "Early Nomad Alluring" mods, or have I somehow missed it? You know; wells, building grounds or whatever?

I would like to have something like that for this game.

One other thing that I really want to try in such a game is a really impossible start; not 3 families without anything. I want 10!  :-\ If most of them manage to survive the first years (I guess it wouldn't be easy, maybe even really impossible this time) it would also speed things up.

Could it be possible for you or @Tom Sawyer to add such a start, at least this one time for me to test?

Sure, I can make the 'building ground' for nomads.
How many in percent of population?
Vanilla values are min=5% max=15%

I can make it so you get exactly 20% every year in spring.

(Trying to multitask while talking) :)

Here, 20% every year. 7x7 empty space
You may have to wait one extra year before they start coming.

(Two minutes more forgot a thing)
Done!

If you want a 'suicide-start' you better talk to Tom. I don't know
what he has changed lately in the North.

Maybe this will be really a suicide mission. I've not tested it. Here a file to change the Impossible start condition of the North to 10 families. I look forward to an exciting survival blog... :)

Wonderful! Tank you guys!
I will play a bit tonight. I´ll let you know if it works!

Hey kid, I see you can program nomads to arrive every year, and set a fixed number range. I have a question, does the number have to be a %, or can it be a specific number? I ask because what you have done is exactly how I would like to see the mission work, a representation of steady conversion of natives. Its something that could add an interesting aspect to the game that I have suggested for CC. Also is it possible to control the possibility of sickness? BTW I really like your smaller buildings, they are balanced and add so much to the game.

Tom, I like yours as well!

Nilla, you must be a good player to try this! What climate are you using? Computerlady has a you tube series with harsh weather that might interest you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj-11M3ODLk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj-11M3ODLk)

Sorry to tell you, the nomad numbers have to in % of population.
Min-Max value. Set them equal to 'know' what's coming.

The arrival-numbers are very suspect. The only thing nomads want
is to come first half of the year and leave in autumn. I have tested
a lot but can only make it stable once a year.

A mission? Sounds interesting. Yesterday I was looking at pictures from
old missions in California. Very old and nice buildings.

edit: the sickness levels should be able to control. I just haven't
understood the numbers yet.

Good Luck @Nilla !!!

uhuh..
All evening testing for diseases. No luck.
Now at 10 PM I fouond that my population had to be 250
when testing if nomads spread diseases.

So @Denis de la Rive, it's possible to change the
chance of nomads spreading disease by rising the population limit.
But that is not what you meant, eh.. ?

There are other numbers too but I have to go a couple more hours
to test if they can be changed.
These numbers are local to my 'nomad space' - attractor, so they
can easily be adjusted. I tell you more tomorrow.

Thanks for looking into this, and yes a mission would be nice, just makes sense in so many periods as well, I'm thinking in terms of the medieval conversions along the Baltic for example, as well as colonial times. I was just wondering about how diseases work, not really as a feature of any kind of mission. What I think is most important is a steady, (yearly would be logical) arrival of a small number of nomads, (1 to 2%) to simulate the constant flow of converts. If this can be made to work then it opens the door for additional buildings like a landing dock for immigrants as was commonly used in the 19th century to populate the Americas. There should also be a way to balance this by building cost, or with an upgrade system to reflect the investment in off map resources.

The mission is one of the three ideas that have yet to be added to Banished that are simply logical to consider. The other two are turpentine, and the fur trade.

I'm always interested in discussing how Banished works, because there are so many possibilities even within the limits we have to make the game better. Its also great to share what I understand about the game.  :)

Been running for hours tonight and my population is HEALTHY!
No single outbreak of anything. It's frustating.
Well, never mind the diseases then. They come when they come.

The landing dock can be made small (maybe f-key variants)
without the restriction of building just one.
Then you should have some kind of control over how many
immigrants you get by building several docks.
On the other hand I don't know how the game reacts to several
identical nomad attractors. The most I have built is four, but they had
different names.

And yes, absolutely a 1% mission for role-playing and the historical aspect!
I don't know how to combine the mission building with some
other function. It's rather complicated to make these 'tabbed' menus.
Town halls we have plenty. And only nomads seems like wasting a
good building.

:) Much to think about!

Nice link (http://www.missionscalifornia.com/keyfacts/san-francisco.html)

YES!
Don't bother about the building. It's an old testfile.
But - I have combined church and nomads!
Working as it should. Maybe large menu, but this can be grand.  :D

Nilla, you must be a good player to try this! What climate are you using? Computerlady has a you tube series with harsh weather that might interest you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj-11M3ODLk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj-11M3ODLk)
[/quote]

Yes, I think I´m quite good at Banished, at least I´ve played a lot and like solving problems. Of cause, I´ve choosen the worse conditions I can think of; the Nordich harsh climate. I haven´t played CC for a long time, so I can´t compare it to the very harsh climate there. I started to blog the town. http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1280.0

The video from Computerlady might be interesting, but a bunch of videos (i peeped into version 9) each more than 20 minutes. That´s nothing for me, sorry.

@Denis de la Rive - Been studying missions and one that got me was
San Buenaventura. (Check the link a few posts back)

Here is another link from early 1800 which layout the grounds.
(edit: no no no, the link is not from 1800) :)

What if - all the building to the right of the mission church could be made into
residental buildings? Houses, lodging houses, even rowhouses.
You should of course be able to build them as you want!
Add school and a doctor and you have a complete mission to put at the outskirts
of your map.

Nilla, visited your CJ, and really like what you are doing.

Kid, what a great idea to combine the church and the nomad arrival, was not certain what could be done in this direction. I've noticed that each nomad generating structure is independent, I had two groups arrive at the same time in different versions of this function, (also have used 3 or 4 at the same time). When you consider the impact of a 1% arrival number it becomes less important as you grow, (after you reach more than say 500), but could be important early on. Since you can refuse them, it can have the impact you want.  I thought about disease and finally there is no valid reason to change that from the normal way it works, its rather a nice incentive to make your towns healthy.

I looked at the image you posted and such a complete complex would make a great addition. Its a lot to do, but would work well with your row houses, and other small town buildings. I think that having all the basic essential of a colony in such a compound is a way of making it unique, and if the building fit together like in the image, (row house style), it will add a flavor to many a town, and be very useful in expanding its area. You can also add some monastery buildings, (apiary, ale, herbs, and others, - I can research this -, relics for red's coins and happiness), to make it even better, and then it becomes a multi-function mode. This would also fits nicely in the medieval landscape.

I'm thinking that the nomad generating building should be limited to one, first so it isn't spammed, second so it doesn't replace the other buildings like it, and to keep it balanced.  It could eventually upgraded to a something that isn't nomad generating, for late game use. To make it interesting it could be a chapel that is added a larger church, or not?

I wondering how difficult it is to change textures in your existing models? That might be a way to cut down on the work, and increase compatibility with your already wonderful buildings.

:)

It's late. A short answer.
I can not make myself change the rowhouse textures.
Because I mapped them when I did not know so much about modeling.

It's awful to think about. I put at least 3-4 times extra work into them
the way I textured them, and would be forced to either redo them or
put equal amount of work into them again. No way!

I'm about to build a mission church and take it from there, one building
at the time, as long as I like to do it. I haven't thought about how big
I want this project. Some sort of distillery comes to mind. Honey. Herbs.
But most of all - agricultural (and some animals)
Mission hostel, some rowhouses, school, infirmary...
It's all in the future.
Night! :)

Yes, it must have been a real nightmare! You're right one building at a time, anything you make will be wonderful!  :)

Hi Kid, I have a tiny thought to your aging mod. I think the values are good and similar to the other  realtimeaging mod. Maybe 45 is a bit too old to get children, but no matter. I have another idea to make the game more exciting and it's also in the citizen.rsc:citizen. So it could be done only together with an aging mod.

In my opinion, happiness is too insignificant in the game. A church or tavern is not really needed and it's a pity imho. All the new stuff and no need... I think it would be interesting if happiness would be more important.

There are some lines to define requirements for happiness. How many kinds of food for instance. We have more and more modded foods but the requirements are still vanilla. Maybe that's a reason why happiness is out of the game...  Maybe it's worth a look. What do you think?

So you mean that the bannies live with a 'happiness-intoxication' and
whatever we do, they are in heaven?

Sounds like modern days dilemma too. :)

Let's keep this discussion open.

Yes, that is exactly what I mean. ;)

These yellow stars are always filled whatever we do. 9/10. Many buildings make happiness "by the way". Happiness here, happiness there. And no need to build a real happiness building like a church or the tavern. So these buildings are out of the game or only decorative item. Boring. I want to care about the happiness of my people. That's why I thought of an increased requirement for happiness in the citizen.rsc. Maybe an increased min food value.

Another way would be to remove the "btw-happiness" from some buildings. For example the trading post (should be only for trading) and a well (should be only for fire protection). The tavern is for happiness and works in a much more interesting way. Just some tiny thoughts to make the game more exciting.

If I may comment on happiness, I think you are on to something here. I've played Tropico and can say that this is a worthy problem to add to the game. This might be a way of making the game more difficult for those who need a challenge. I think that modifying the buildings is not the best choice, it involves so many mods.

I think that some of the buildings happiness functions can still be justified if examined carefully, the TP for instance can be seen as a giving access to the larger world, and breaking the sense of isolation. I also think that some of the vanilla features are justified by the limited number of buildings available in that version, (there has not been any new structures added to the basic game). Think of it as a sort of vestigial function of the un-modded game.

I haven't seen the code but modifying that rsc is most likely easier, and can provide the best results with the possibility of customizing the values accordingly, and having it applied to the whole as a consistent system. Its also better since it gives a clear choice to the player, rather than messing with their favorite buildings, imagine it as something like climate choice.

Modifying happiness, and making it relevant is something worth looking into.  :)

Posting the numbers from vanilla citizen.src for the discussion.

   float _maxHappiness = 10.0;
   int _minFoodForHappiness = 4;
   int _maxFoodForHappiness = 12;
   float _happinessUpdateInMonths = 3.0;
   int _workForHappiness = 10;
   float _unhappyLevel = 0.6;
   float _depressedLevel = 0.25;
   int _idleRange = 25;

min-max food can be changed, if they are as Tom suggests -
number of different sorts of food.

workforHappiness could be made cruel. Set it to 20 and let the slavery begin!

unhappyLevel - ? is this number absolute or percentage ?
depressedLevel - same
both could be rised to make it harder to stay happy.

I'm sure idleRange can be useful but right now I don't understand it.

I like the thought of making happiness (and health and clothing) a more important thing in the game.

My oppinion is that, the large number of buildings, that brings happiness is not the real problem; it´s the impact of happines/health/clothes on the gameplay.

It´s such a small difference in efficiency between a person with 5 stars and no stars at all. The unhappy person idles a little bit more, but you hardly notice the difference.

The same with health; The only thing that´s different about an healthy person and a very unhealthy one, is that the one with the poor heath, makes an occational brake from work to visit the herbalist. It takes a while and of cause he doesn´t produce in this time. If you have no herbalist, he just makes a brake of a few seconds, than back to business as usual (so if you play strictly on efficiency; never build an herbalist).

A third thing, that have no big impact are clothes. As long as the temperature is above ~3 C ther´s no difference at all between warm clothes and no clothes at all. In winter there´s just a small differens. If I remember it right. A person with warm clothes doesn´t need to get home to get warm at all, a person with wool coats once each winter and a person without clothes 2 or 3 times. I studied it in a normal temperature. In the cold Nordic winter it will probably make a little more difference, but still not enough to my taste.

I blogged my investigations, if you want to take a look. http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1021.0

I might as well give the first answer I have. (I've read the blog. Very good!)

It seems as those 3 (happiness, health, clothing) are put there for some minor
impact on the game, without being too demanding to the player.

It should be interesting to know the mechanics in the game files that Luke made.

I wonder if changing the values in Citizen.src really can change the game very much.
It is certainly worth a try. I'm busy modeling right now so I leave for now but
I will return to this as it is something we live with in the game, but we don't have control.

Yes, Nillas experiments on living people are very exciting.^^

I don't understand all these numbers, too. I try it...

Min and max food defines a range of the required food diversity. I have no clue how it works exactly in the game but I suspect that higher values will decrease the happiness a bit. Needs testing. If we can push down this level to about 3 stars, churches and the tavern or more food diversity would have a more noticeable effect. To say: Yes... I build this impressive church for impressive building costs and my people are really happy because of it.

UpdateInMonth could be changed to 1. Just to have the effect more promptly and noticeable.

WorkForHappiness sounds like an idling "worktime" when unhappy. Then it could be increased to have more impact.

UnhappyLevel. I also think it is 0.6 of maxHappiness (3 stars). DepressedLevel is between 1 and 1,5 stars. I think it's right if they are unhappy on 3 and depressed on 1 star. I don't know if unhappy is on 3 stars or below.

IdleRange could be the radius for idling in tiles. Probably no need to change this.

With these different types of happiness (I count 5)... I don't know what an effect they have. It seems that not all types are necessary to reach 5 stars.

To health. There is another important effect of unhealthy. The chance of sickness is increased. Maybe it could be more significant.

These coldness level values in the citizen.rsc I don't understand. It needs testing with different values but probably there is not really a need to change coldness.
At least not in the North. ;D

I would like to make some tests with more required food diversity and with this work penalty. To find a balance for more usable happiness buildings.  I want a crayfish party with a real effect.^^

Some ideas:

float _maxHappiness = 10.0; This could refer to what appears as stars, so if changed could add a greater gradation in the numbers, at present appears to be .5 star. So if increased could be counted at .33,(15), or .25 (20) adding greater depth to the system.

   int _minFoodForHappiness = 4;
   int _maxFoodForHappiness = 12; These have to be linked in some way with the flags used to define types in goods rsc. 4 must refer to the usual groups protein, grain, fruit, vegetables, the rest to luxuries and/or health.

   float _happinessUpdateInMonths = 3.0; I agree this refers to time between checks, changing it will increase the impact of buildings and shortages. Probably a good thing to start with.

   int _workForHappiness = 10; This could be like maxHappyness and refer to the amount of time they work if happy. I'm not sure how this can be changed, its difficult to see what more could do, except lead to problems staying alive?

   float _unhappyLevel = 0.6;
   float _depressedLevel = 0.25; I think this has to refer to the number of stars that define these states, ie 3 and 1.5.

   int _idleRange = 25; Could this be an amount of time the idle last in absolute days?

Mostly in agreement with Tom.

Too bad Luke has not documented what these numbers mean. ::)

I read the latest entries of this thread this morning and some things puzzles me: I don't understand anything from modding, the codes, and how they are written, but I'm not sure you are right, assuming that food variety has an impact in the happines. I have never seen that; not even in the game, as they had only proteins to eat. If it has any effect, it's very minor.

I decided to make a little test. It turned out to be much more interesting than I thought and I have a load of screenshots I want to share.

I have noticed, that if you start a Nordic game on impossible, the happines goes down at the beginning. I wasn't really sure why, you can't see it in other games, so I supposed it had to do with having no house/ no clothings/ bad food in the cold, a combination of one or more of these influences.

I started a Nordic game and decided to give my people only meat (and maybe fish) to eat and see.

Protein1

Of cause the health gets down. A little faster by the people without homes. On some people (with or without homes) the happies gets down a little bit (½ or 1 star) I've marked the people in the house with X.

Protein2

Here I've built a small city hall and you can see the graph. Everyone was happy after they got clothes. You can see these time periods very clear. The steps and the time are set. The same for happines and health.

Next experiment. Back to an early save. This time they also get fruit and vegetables from the woods, but no clothes the first years.

Clothes1

Happiness and health gets down in the same steps as in the first game. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the temperature. If they freeze or not in their rags; the reduction of happiness is the same the whole year. The health of the people in the houses is way better, than if they live in the woods. Like in the first experiment; house or no house doesn't influence the happines.


More to come.

Back again.

This time they all get a house as soon as possible, no clothes, fruit, vegetables and proteins to eat.

Longexp1

In 2 of the 3 houses a baby is born. (the first family already had 3 children). No big surprise if you think of life, but in this game I really was; the parents of the baby were happy!

Longexp2

The new parents regained all their stars, the others adults and all children became only unhappier and unhappier......

Longexp3

.....until there were only ½ star left. But time went on and here the next surprise; children who became adults regained some of their stars. And remember; there never was a clothing in this settlement.

I decided to improve the health. Herbalist and trading port built.


more to come....

Thanks, very interesting indeed, only adds to the mystery of how happiness works. It does show that items other than food must be referred to in the FoodforHappiness formula.  ???

Saw your second post, (while writing this), even more interesting and a clear demonstration of what 4 refers to, 3 foods = unhappy since no clothing. I suspect the increase is adulthood is due to having a functioning tool, which means 3 food + tool = 4! I assume you have tools, but no herbs or ale, these should also have an impact. With this we can start to see how increasing the value of minFoodforHappiness can definitely make the game harder.  ;)

Nilla, you don't need to understand code to make interesting comments, I can only read it, more or less, after a while you end up understanding the language.  :)

We are in the dark because of Luke's choice not to explain these technical aspects of the game. >:(

Here I have reordered the menus; the families together.

Longexp4

I decided to build one big house and see if there's a difference, if  many babies are born. I also let one of the young adults move into the spare house, in order to see what happens to young people, when they move out. And surprise, surprise; he became a very happy young single man.

Longexp5

Now, almost everyone is very healthy. Can anyone see how happiness and health could be related to eachother? I can't.

I was pleased to see that the daughter of the unhappy couple moved out. They will soon have a baby. I guess, that they will be happy, too.

Longexp6

Yes, I was right. Now, every parent of new born babies are happy. But also the youngest children. Can anyone explain why the youngest: Alle, Danning, Wintoney are happy. Their siblings Migdalen and Nett both born into a house are not. The original children are most unhappy. The one in the first house the most. ???

And remember; still no clothes.

More experiments to come....

Testing Queen! Have not studied all details of your experiment but there are some interesting things. Events in their lives have the biggest impact and they love good clothing. I think, the min max food for happiness means the foods (apple and pears...), not the types (grain and fruits...). 12 makes no sense for the hard coded 4 types. I made a test too, but I'm a bad tester. No patience. In the first years with only 1 food (potatoes) in the barn and modded minFoodForHappiness = 12 instead of 4 there was no effect. 5 stars. Of course the health dropped down and I gave them herbs to stay healthy and to eliminate an impact to happiness. To early to say whats happen with this food for happiness but probably it is not a way to simply press down the happiness level. Look forward to more results of your tests. It seems you have fun with these methods of torture. ;)

I let the game run most of the day. It's a good "self runner". I really didn't plan such a long game, and since my last game, I have the proper time mod activated. Maybe this wasn't the best choice to investigate things fast, but I have a lot of time and nothing really unpleasant happened in the time I wasn't at my computer.

I decided to test foodvariety.

Longtest 7

Now they feed on only fish and a little reindeer meat. Health drops, happiness steady. Definitely not related to eachother.

Longtest8

I decided to finally give them some clothes. I have enough furs, so it should be a coat for everyone. But we all know the affinity to the professions of tailors and blacksmiths that uneducated have! Of cause, here, without attendance, they needed two furs for one reindeer coat, not enough for everyone. But as I saw the result, it's not so bad. We might see if there's a difference between those who had a coat and those who hadn't, when we change something else.

Anyhow. All unhappy who got a coat became happy.

trade3
A couple of years went by, all new reindeer coats went old and ragged. What happened? Will they turn unhappy again? No! None of them became unhappy! I was even mean and threw one family out in the woods to see if the house matters. It didn't. The only one that's unhappy is the guy who was unhappy before and didn't get any coat.

I discovered a strange bug (?) in the trade. I will tell about it in the Nordic mod thread, I think it belongs better there. It's the reason the menu from trade is open and the picture has another name.

Nice testing, I'm so confused by this, I can't understand how the game can measure numbers for food if its not using flags. A simple number check? Other factors are at play, like clothing, or tools, but which and how? It also seems that age, (child/adult, student?) and family composition play a role. It could be that the publish code is only partial, and only refers to food.  :o

Again, more information as I write.  :)

This is even more confusing, which also means useful, so food is a factor, how, are the others also? Could the happiness of structures be a major factor, we know death without a graveyard is something that changes happiness.

I going to examine my current population, ( a well developed town), and see if I can find any differences.  ;)

There might be a point that they become more happy, if they have a lot of different food. I haven't tested it here, but the night is long........

@Tom Sawyer if you make some changes in numbers and want some tests, send it to me and I can test it. I think I have an analytical mind and as I said a lot of time, so if there's something to find out, I'll find it. I will not try to get into the codes and change things myself. I'm too old to learn such things. Even if I learned a little programming in the 1970s, as the programs had names like Fortran and Turbo Pascal. This is something completely different and I have no disire to get more familiar with modern stuff.

On with torturing my poor people and now really mean. Something more to confuse you @Denis de la Rive?

Longexp9

I now think this is wrong, but I thought this food parameter might have something to do with the amount of food. If they are short on food, they might get unhappy, even if they don't starve. Besides if some really starves to death (and we all know how hard it is to have little food without anyone starving to death) it might be interesting to study unhappiness and recovery again.

I changed the homeless family, because I guess that the homeless will starve first and if I want to continue this game, the young girls in the former homeless family might save the settlement.

Longexp10

I could keep the settlement close to starvation for quite some time without any deaths. I can say for sure; low food has no influence on happiness. After some time everyone of the homeless people died of starvation except one young man. As expected, he became very unhappy losing his whole family. He married a 15 year elder woman. Maybe it wasn't such a joy. Even if they became 3 babies, he hasn't shown any sign of improvement yet, still only ½ star.

There has been one accident; a falling tree. One of the younger men died. His mother became very unhappy. Here she has 2 stars but it fell to ½. The father wasn't unhappy at all. How do we explain this?

Quote from: Nilla on September 12, 2016, 12:04:08 PM
There has been one accident; a falling tree. One of the younger men died. His mother became very unhappy. Here she has 2 stars but it fell to ½. The father wasn't unhappy at all. How do we explain this?

Perhaps he was not the child's real father... ;)

@Gatherer; you might be right and who knows what, really happened out there in the wild forests?

I couldn't leave it; i had to test a lot of different food. Has it an effect on the happiness?

I can say. Yes, it has, small but significant!....... or maybe not? It depends........This is interesting.

Longexp11

It took some time. I rebuilt some things; made a large tradingport, to be able to buy more food, I ordered all kind of food costing 1 or 2 from every merchant and I built a small market. I stored all food in the trading port until I had 10-12 imported foods, together with my own; more than12 different. After I put them all on the market, a very small improvement of happiness could be seen.

Look at the event log! Not rather nice if you want to study small improvements.

Longexp12

One mother dies. All her children were very unhappy, the husband not! I have seen this before.  Luckily, I made a safe, before I released all the food from the trading port.

Longexp13

Once again the same result. Same small improvement. This time I looked a bit more careful on the menus. It's Normanni, my coatless young man (not that young anymore) . His happines has increased from, 2 to 3 stars. This is the change we can see. I think it's all there is. Those who are already happy, doesn't care.  After I've waited some time, to see if it was just a one time improvement (it was) or if it would continue to improve (unfortunately not), I started my brewery.

My gatherers pick a lot of berries so I made cider. Nothing happend, absolutely nothing at all. Honestly i wasn't very surprised. I've seen it before. Breweries have no effect on happiness.

Longexp14

Now I wanted to test, if the improvement stays, after they only get a few things to eat again. So, I closed my gatherers and sent everyone to fish salmon. I had some irritating wheat in my stores, that I wanted to get rid of. Yes! I have a brewery, even if it doesn't matter, let's make some more alcohol, than it's faster gone.

I couldn't believe my eyes. Again there was this small but significant improvement of happines. Again it was Normanni. He seems to fancy weissbier much more than cider from berries. (I use the White Swan from @kid1293, I guess, there is some coded label that doesn't recognize cider as happymaking alcohol.)  Unfortunately I had no more wheat to make more alcohol, so I don't know if this was a one time improvement or if he will recover more.

So I must reverse what I´ve always said about the breweries; that they have no effect on happiness. On normal, happy people I will say, they have not and I have never seen a person unhappy because familymembers have died who gets happier from alcohol, but in this case; if you are unhappy because you never had a coat (!); alcohol helps, many kind of food helps, too, what else? But how often do we have people unhappy of this reson?

I will try more tomorrow.

I looked at my current town, and found a few unhappy people, 3 stars, (town display at 5), all single survivors aged over 60.

Subject Bobbin, male 72, laborer, lives alone, clothing and steel tool. Had 3 types of food in home at start. Followed him until he died age 78, he collected food twice, (got 7 or more types), ate 4 times at least, visited the herbalist once, increased health from 4,5 to 5. He did not use any luxuries, (I have more that 4 types, and he lives near a tavern). His happiness dropped over time to two, one, and finally ,5 stars, with a growing amount of idling. Food did not change this at all, the only factor I noticed is that my graveyards are full, so this seems to be the major factor, I will run him again, after plopping a graveyard and see.  ???

Yes, you are right; deaths/graveyards is the only thing, that influences happiness in a normal game.

Here's another tiny thought.
I liked the idea of being able to grow herbs, but I did not like
the BlackLiquid's model of herbs.
I used the vanilla herbs, they are not super on a farmfield,
but they fit the game rather well.

@Discrepancy - I don't care if people get happy or not from
your mulled mead. :) Here's a way to keep a good production
of it. And it is a small start to some monastic order.  ???

Thanks kid1293 - I do like your small buildings and production sites, thanks for all your efforts.

A.

Another small, funny thing - Cactus!
Check in download - Garden Shed (http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=90), for source.

(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/2582_06_10_16_7_07_06.png)

Mexican style. 8)

Hi Tom!
Yes, I don't know why I'm stuck in that area and time.
I have plans for some more buildings. Mexican style actually.
The risk I take when thinking.  ;D

Good to see you!
And Hi! to Nilla too. Hope you are safe and well.

Edit after sleeping: Maybe not Mexican, more ... alien.  ??? :o ;D

Tiberium Blossom Trees...

Spaced out.
What exactly is Tiberium?

I can think of many uses of cactus, not all legal  8)
but Command and Conquer?
(that's what I got when I Googled)

kid did u bump your head?? he was referring to the game COMMAND CONQUER.

OK @brads3 , my head is rather lumpy after living thru these times.

I put up a cactus - Gatherer answered with something from Command and Conquer.

I don't see the connection.  ???

...maybe too lumpy.  ::)

Quote from: kid1293 on October 06, 2016, 02:42:38 PM
Edit after sleeping: Maybe not Mexican, more ... alien.  ??? :o ;D

Quote from: kid1293 on October 08, 2016, 12:10:11 AM
I put up a cactus - Gatherer answered with something from Command and Conquer.

I don't see the connection.  ???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberium)

Tiberium blossom trees are trees infested with Tiberium that spawn Tiberium spores. When I saw that cactus and your thought of making something alien I immediately got that reference.

Well, my fault, I thought it was edible.  :o ???  ;D

Just joking. That alien reference slipped my mind but I understand.

What do you get if you mix Mexican playfulness, some Rowhouses,
RedKetchup's overlapping technology and maybe a few cactus?

Answer is coming!

A visit to the hospital urgency room?

Pueblo?

Too close to be ignored.
I admit that I tried to make a pueblo.
But I had many reservations. How did people get to the upper level?
How could I make this 'free' when building?
Should it all be drab mud colored?

So I leaned back against the cactus and started to dream!

8)

(See you in download)

(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/2582_10_10_16_10_04_47.png)


Ingenious...Looks strangely Minecraftian.

Those flat roofs look perfect for some small workshops or food processing area (sun dried tomatoes and hot peppers).

It could even work as a Brazilian favela.

I love these mexican houses!