Health and Happiness.

[Tilleen]

I have been thinking about health and happiness and the use of the different food types affect them.

I understand that what I am suggesting is not possible.

I think the way I would have set things up is to have the basic food groups (Protein, Grain, Fruit and Vegetables), each only supply half a heart of health, with the rest of the heart dependent on what other foods are known about. eg. if you only know about wheat then you get half a heart for the protein and the half a heart because all your citizens think that this is the best you can get. Once you discover, say corn, then to get the full heart you need to be feeding your people both wheat and corn, if you have 3 things you know of then all 3 would need to be fed to your citizens.

This may require some max number of items so, 4 products would give a full heart even though you know about 6.

It may be that it feeds into happiness as well or instead of after the first heart.

[tomnobles]

I have noticed that with one gatherer and either corn or wheat, I can get 5 hearts. Now this is with two markets (two housing areas) to ensure all houses get everything. Also a herbalist near both housing areas (they don't have to have herbs to gather) and one herbalist in a forest node. I have noticed that as population increases (maybe 200+), health will drop. Then having both grains and two or more fruits can bring it back up.

So, I deduce that population (I have no idea what number) plays a role in what food types affect health.

[rkelly17]

I have noticed that with one gatherer and either corn or wheat, I can get 5 hearts. Now this is with two markets (two housing areas) to ensure all houses get everything. Also a herbalist near both housing areas (they don't have to have herbs to gather) and one herbalist in a forest node. I have noticed that as population increases (maybe 200+), health will drop. Then having both grains and two or more fruits can bring it back up.

So, I deduce that population (I have no idea what number) plays a role in what food types affect health.

In Banished there are 4 food types: Proteins (Meat and nuts), fruit (berries, orchard fruits), vegetables (roots, onions, most field crops) and grains (wheat and corn). Mods can add members of the categories but cannot add categories. In the modkit examples honey became a super food because it was included in every category. To have 5 hearts a citizen has to eat all 4 types on a regular basis. Herbs can help a settlement that can't get a food type. The hunter gets protein and the gatherer gets fruit and vegetables, so the only type that can only come from agriculture is grains--unless of course you are using a mod. The latest Colonial Charter version has gatherers who find corn, for example.

The way that population might make a difference is that there are so many people that one food type is in short supply and so the supply in a market is intermittent. This would result in the citizens who use that market not having ready access to that food type. The same problem could result from poor distribution (say, if all the grain fields were concentrated in one corner of the map). Otherwise, with full supplies of all 4 types, population should have no effect on health.

Regarding distribution: in the early game of a Medium start before I have built a market, I often see radical differences in health between my farmers and my hunter-gatherers, each of whom is eating out of the barn next to where he or she lives (this is what citizens do when they aren't inside the service circle of a market). Since the hunter-gatherer barn has 3 food groups (protein, fruit and vegetables) and the farmer barn has 1 or at most 2 food types (vegetables or vegetables and grain), the hunter-gatherers are always healthier than the farmers. Once I build a market the distribution evens out and health equalizes. On a Hard start everybody is less than full health until I can trade for grains.

So, if health is eroding ask two questions: (1) Do I have all 4 food types with sufficient supply of each? (2) Is my food supply distributed equally around the settlement? Even in a 5 heart settlement not everyone will necessarily have 5 hearts. Especially people who live a long ways from a market or barn that has a supply of all types can end up with 1 or 2 hearts.

I'm not sure whether there is any connection between health and happiness. The two are separate categories and no one has reported observing any connection.

[Paeng]

Even in a 5 heart settlement not everyone will necessarily have 5 hearts.

That is probably  a major stumbling block for many - people tend to only look at the hearts and stars from the main interface. But that can be completely off - when you look at the condition of individual peeps you often see that all the happy ones are kids, students and young adults, while many of the professionals could be severely unhappy or unhealthy (resulting in lower productivity)... 

[Pangaea]

In a sense, that mirrors real life. Kids are happy, then you grow up, must make money, pay tax, and have a lot more burdens.

[RedKetchup]

In a sense, that mirrors real life. Kids are happy, then you grow up, must make money, pay tax, and have a lot more burdens.

and then starting to have rhumatism .... heartburns... surgery in the back ....
lol (not funny ^^)

[A Nonny Moose]

I don't know if that business about grains being the only agricultural product is really accurate.  There are three basic livestock types that provide protein as well, so it isn't only the hunters that cough up the bacon, so to speak, even though the basic game has neither wild boar nor hogs (something for an update, I should think).

My play history has shown that the most advantageous livestock appears to be sheep.  You get wool almost at once, and once the pasture fills up, mutton as well.  A side issue here is that there could also be some spring lamb, which is certainly more tasty than a hunk of fat, old mutton.

Adding some wild pigs to the woods would, of course, increase the risk for the hunters.  I seem to remember that sometimes hunters are killed by boars in the present game, but nobody brings home the bacon.  Perhaps Luke is too much of an urban type, or has dietary restrictions.

A few goats would also be a help as well.  Good eating, and they can be milked and good cheese made.  One of my favourite meals is curried goat.

[Nilla]

It's nice to have full health and full happiness, but if you don't, it's no big deal. The productivity loss is not very big. I investigated it in my latest settlemet, see my blog; "Kenworthport the unhappy unhealthy town".

Health and happiness has nothing directly to do with the size of the settlement. But of cause; it's harder to have a perfect distribution in a larger settlement than in a small one. And as @rkelly17 says; the distribution is important.

It's also a bit tricky; even if everyone lives inside a market circle, and the market contains all types of food, people who live close to a barn, might as well get their food from that barn and if that
barn contains only fish; these people only eat fish and have a bad health.

[tomnobles]

Maybe I deduced wrong in my post above but, Health and Happiness do make a difference in production. Had to recently change out a hard drive and with a new install I was at 0% in achievements. So, being me, I decided to see how many I could get with one game. About 80% so far with this one;  http://tomnobles.com/images/Banished/images/Achievments-80+.png

[Nilla]

Yes, health and happiness do reduce the production, but not very much. I studied it quite carefully in my last town. If I make an estimation: the productivity loss for a person with ½ hart is less than 5%  Bad happiness has a little larger influence, but I think it's less than 10% for a person with ½ star compared to full happiness. Other aspects (like distance to barns/houses) are much more important.

Interesting, @tomnobles that you try to get as many achievements as possible on the same map. I have also started such an attempt. My ambition is to get them all. I will blog my progress. I hope you will tell us how your attempt goes on, too.

[tomnobles]

I don't think all can be achieved on one map. One of the achievements requires a small mountainous map, don't think you can get 900 pop on that map   .  I'm at 78 percent now and three more to go (and 93 years to go -:)) before this map is finished. I should have 100% in a few days... maybe. 

[irrelevant]

I don't think all can be achieved on one map. One of the achievements requires a small mountainous map, don't think you can get 900 pop on that map   .  I'm at 78 percent now and three more to go (and 93 years to go -:)) before this map is finished. I should have 100% in a few days... maybe. 

Once you get the Isolationist achievement, you can build TPs. Once you get to that point, you can switch to an import-based economy; it should not be difficult to gradually convert land devoted to food and log production into housing. I think a good small map can handily support over 1000, even without mods.

[Nilla]

I don't think all can be achieved on one map. One of the achievements requires a small mountainous map, don't think you can get 900 pop on that map   .

I'm not sure that it's possible to get all achievements on a small mountain map either. But @irrelevant is right: 900 inhabitants will not be the toughest thing. If I fail, it's likely the start; small mountain map, uneducated, no farming, no trade. 300 inhabitants with that combination is tricky!

Than there are other things as well, that might cause trouble on that tiny map; All things that require space; produce enough stones, 400 graves, a lot of pasture animals, churches and boardinghouses, you name it. If I survive the start, I am lucky enough to have much time (200 years) to make them one by one. And except the quarries, everything can be demolished.

I will let you know how it works.

[rkelly17]

I don't know if that business about grains being the only agricultural product is really accurate.  There are three basic livestock types that provide protein as well, so it isn't only the hunters that cough up the bacon, so to speak, even though the basic game has neither wild boar nor hogs (something for an update, I should think).

What I meant to say is that grains are the only necessity that can be produced only by agriculture--unless one has mods. Proteins, vegetables and fruits can all come from hunter-gatherers, but grains cannot. Sorry that I wasn't as clear as I might have been.

Mods, of course, change the picture. In the recent version of Colonial Charter gatherers seem to find corn. That changes the necessity of trade for seeds.

Yes, health and happiness do reduce the production, but not very much. I studied it quite carefully in my last town. If I make an estimation: the productivity loss for a person with ½ hart is less than 5%  Bad happiness has a little larger influence, but I think it's less than 10% for a person with ½ star compared to full happiness. Other aspects (like distance to barns/houses) are much more important.

That is probably  a major stumbling block for many - people tend to only look at the hearts and stars from the main interface. But that can be completely off - when you look at the condition of individual peeps you often see that all the happy ones are kids, students and young adults, while many of the professionals could be severely unhappy or unhealthy (resulting in lower productivity)... 

I think that the noticeable drop in efficiency for low happiness citizens is because low happiness leads to increased idling, the number one efficiency killer. Even keeping the citizens drunk and happy is more efficient than leaving them unhappy. 

I once found a 23 year-old still living with his parents and going to school. He was very, very unhappy--less than 1 full star. He mostly hung around the nearest well and moped. His school attendance record was abysmal.

[tomnobles]

Quote from: Posted by: Nilla  Today at 08:29:02 AM

I'm not sure that it's possible to get all achievements on a small mountain map either. But @irrelevant is right: 900 inhabitants will not be the toughest thing. If I fail, it's likely the start; small mountain map, uneducated, no farming, no trade. 300 inhabitants with that combination is tricky!

I'm almost finished (6 years to go) with a population of 80 and I don't think I could get 300 on this map, even without cemeteries and quarries. Maybe with a better, flatter mountain map.