First I wanted to write my first impressions of the new version at the mod discussion thread, but than I thought, that this headline has been a bit empty lately;
@irrelevant not playing at all and I very little. ;)
Before I could start the test I had to download the latest version of Banished. I don't use Steam and as I said, I haven't played much lately so there has been no need for the latest update before. After some trouble (the download stopped a couple of times) I was finally ready to start.
I see there is a new start condition "impossible". I like challenges and the word "impossible" is much too tempting to ignore; of cause I had to try that! ;) ::) :-\ At "impossible" you start with 3 families, they all have no tools, the clothes are in rags, there's no food.... simply nothing to start with.
Luckily there are some special "speed collecting" buttons for food and firewood. I will have to use them. There are also a very small and cheap storage. So first action; cut some trees and build the smallest storage. Send a hunter to the nearest flock of reindeer. So far, it worked wonderful; the store was finished fast, the hunter killed 3 animals (each 100 meat). That would work for the beginning. To get more food continuously, I sent one person to "instant fishing". She caught trout. Next step; collect more building materials and build a blacksmith. The tool-less people are dreadful, even worse than uneducated. This was a mistake: The climate is unforgiving. All of my citizens froze to death!! :( :'(
OK, now I know that the spring is too cold to survive in ragged clothes without a house (in a vanilla game I sometimes wait to build the first house until autumn, no one has frozen to death in such a game yet).
Second attempt; cut logs, build small barn, hunt some deer, cut more logs and some stones and build a small house. Unfortunately everyone froze to death as the house was half finished. :'( :(
Not give up. I cut a little bit too much logs and stones, so it took some time to start to build the house. And I may say that the tool-less people build slow.
Third attempt: same thing but now just cut so much logs and stones as necessary and don't forget to collect some firewood. And YES!!!The house was built but I'm sorry to say, not fast enough. All froze to death before the inhabitants got enough firewood to heat the house. :'( :(
Maybe heat is more important than food. Maybe they will freeze to death faster than they starve. This must be tested.
Fourth attempt; cut enough stones and logs, build a house, than build the small store and send the hunter to hunt. YES, YES, YES, no one froze to death. But this time; unfortunately most of the people starved to death. :( :'( The selfish family in the house hoarded 300 venison and let the others starve to death. Not nice! The game isn't dead. This one family will probably survive. It would be a slightly extended "Anders and Ella" start. But I want all to live.
Fifth attempt; same as four. Only fake demolish the house as soon as everyone was warm enough. Now there was enough food for all and everyone survived. They still live 7 years later.
So
@Tom Sawyer, the "impossible" start is not quite impossible, just very difficult. Very, very nice. Thank you!!!!
This is long enough, so I will not say more now, just show some pictures.
QuoteLuckily there are some special "speed collecting" buttons for food and firewood.
What kind of seeds? Just thinking of trying it.
Seeds? I'm not sure, that I understand what you mean. But if it is the things you can harvest fast; look at the second picture. There you can see the menu. From left:
Nr 4 Firewood (works like logs/stones/iron)
Nr 5 Food (onions, mushrooms, roots, berries works the same as firewood)
Nr 6 Herbs (Haven't used it, because as far as I know, you need a herbalist to heal people)
Nr 7 Small Woodchopper (have to be built, but doesn't cost much and is quite efficient, no need for the vanilla chopper, yet in this game)
Nr 8 Hunter (place it in the middle of the herd, assign a hunter and the hunter will catch some deer, but be aware; it seems like the animals learns, that the hunter is dangerous and disappears as soon as he/she comes close. Happend some times to me, maybe I was unlucky or it's really so
@Tom Sawyer is a sophisticated kind of person. I wouldn't be surprised if he invented some obstacles)
Nr 9 Fish (works like a mini fishing dock but cost (almost ?) nothing. The fisher catches trout but not very much, at least not the tool- less fisher I started with. Anyhow it must be hard to catch fish without any equipment, so maybe it's better now when everyone have tools. I will try it again some time, but I have also noticed that salmon (caught in the "vanilla" fishing dock) is worth 2 in trade, trout only 1 so I suppose this small fisher is only interesting right at the beginning)
Ah, OK. I was thinking farming seeds.
Thanks for your quick reply.
Congratulations! MISSION IMPOSSIBLE completed. :)
Nice, like you've outsmarted the grabby family. I had not this idea with the faked demolition. I've simply flooded the shed with meat and then quickly build up the second and thirt house. Thanks for your amusing report.
Lol ok maybe i'm a bit of it.^^ But I don't hacked a AI in the deer. They just move on if the time is over to graze at this location. The small chopper needs 50% more work time. So it makes sense to build the yard. And yes, fishing without a tool is nearly useless.
I look forward to the progress of your settlement.
(http://www.zockerbar.de/banished/mission-impossible.jpg)
@Nilla this sounds like fun, looking forward to giving it a try. I can't resist "impossible." ;) You did great, of course. Pop Queen :D
Quote from: tomnobles on July 16, 2016, 12:03:30 PM
Ah, OK. I was thinking farming seeds.
They have absolutely nothing from the start if you play "impossible", so no seeds. And farming is no "speedy" thing. Even if you had some seeds, you have to survive the time to the harvest with some other food. I started with meat from the reindeer and as the first summer arrived, I sent as many people I could spare to collect wild fruit/vegetables. I like that there is almost no wild vegan food in winter. That's realistic. After some years I built a gatherer. I thought it might be a bit troublesome, that I have to micromanage and take away the gatherers in winter to do something else but it works very good. In winter the gatherer collects firewood.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 16, 2016, 02:11:14 PM
Congratulations! MISSION IMPOSSIBLE completed. :)
Nice, like you've outsmarted the grabby family. I had not this idea with the faked demolition. I've simply flooded the shed with meat and then quickly build up the second and third house.
Thanks! Yes, the picture is quite to the point of what I felt as I have to restart the game so many times. And congratulations to you, too! First to this excellent mod and second that you seems to survive the "mission impossible" too.
And to be honest, I flood the place with meat, too. As soon as the building materials was collected, I sent 2 hunters to the nearby flock of animals, so maybe the "fake demolishion" wouldn't have been necessary. Anyhow the option to fake demolish made it possible for me to build a school as third building, just in time to get everyone educated. I didn't have to bother about more new houses fast.
Quote from: irrelevant on July 16, 2016, 07:17:41 PM
@Nilla this sounds like fun, looking forward to giving it a try. I can't resist "impossible." ;) You did great, of course. Pop Queen :D
Thank you, nice to see something from you again! Yes this mod is really good. I think you would appreciate it, too. But this blog might be a spoiler. You don't have to make the mistakes I did. I'm sorry if I take away some of the fun.
Can I spoil more fun for other players and tell about more mistakes? No not really. I played some more years, it works well. I started to trade. I even have some money. You can't see it at menu, it stays in the port, no need for it anywhere else, as I can see. I can't see a better way to introduce money, than the way you do here. Some merchants only bring coins, they don't sell anything, they are pure buyers. Others bring a lot of stuff, but they only take coins as payment. So if you want to buy some sheep, seeds or buildingmaterials, you can't do without cash. There are also some oldfashioned barter traders, who primary sell food, so you don't need coins for everything.
Do I like it? Does it increase the fun of playing? I can't say, yet. It works well, I see no problem, the trade gets a little bit more complicated, but it's good manageable. You get a quite a realistic feeling, a combination of money and barter trading. We'll see how it works as the settlemet grows.
I have started to look a little bit into the changed trading values. In this early stage of the game salmon is the hit. I think it's not really good that salmon is worth 2. It's too easy to get a lot of coins with salmon as primary export product. The fishing docks are very productive. It's also not historically correct. It was easy to catch, but it was not a valuable fish in the past, at least not in the north.
Anyhow I've sold enough salmon (and some venison and logs) to get enough coins to buy some bricks and rooftitles. I have started to build these wonderful new Nordic houses and barns. Great design, I really love them. I also like to watch how they get built, the different stages, very nice! I miss one thing: A Nordic school. Our schools don´t look like the vanilla at all.
I have one question to you
@Tom Sawyer : No merchant offering iron, coal, or textiles have arrived yet. Is this intentional, a mistake or just coincidence (such a merchant hasn't arrived yet)? I'm running out of iron close and I don´t have enough population to run a mine properly, so I would like to buy some iron. It also troubles me a bit that iron and coal is counted as the same resource. It's inconvenient. You need both to make tools and you need iron to build as well. I would like to see fast on the small menu how much of each I have. There is one spare place on the menu. Could it be used ? If not, I would prefere coins to be replaced. You will seldom have any stored outside the ports anyhow. Maybe transfer them from one port to another but no sense to store in your barns.
There hasn't been many farm supply merchants yet, so I haven't bought any seeds yet but I will as soon as I can.
Ey, your settlement is working as if it were an easy mode. You are swimming in bricks and food.^^
Ok, salmon will be reduced to 1 and the different between fishing spot and dock will be the amount instead of the trade value. Fishing is a bit difficult to understand. In my tests I could not notice an effect of the reduced radius or of a defined work time. Thats why I needed the new specie.
A school we can make. Not easy to find a photo that you can easily recognize as a school. And it should be a small village school in old style. Maybe one of this...?
At the moment there is no merchant who sells iron and other raw materials. Ok, you need it at the moment and most of all you'd just buy it. But I'm not sure if we should have it. It helps to break a single strategy by producing one thing and buy all for it.
Nice that the money gives a realistic feeling for the trade. We need the specialized trading docks for it. And maybe you will need money for storage and transport later.
Maybe it's too easy to simply exchange food by the food merchants?
This statusbar is difficult. There is only a certain amount of flags and counters. I found no way to make it better. There is no number to fill this empty cell. And I needed a standalone flag for the money. The best option was the combining of iron and coal to get it. We really need more options to use flags. To define our own or a handful of blank flags to use for new stuff.
Imho iron is not really a building material for old houses like in banished. Nails ok, that would be more a part of the tools. And a door lock made by a blacksmith maybe but what else? I've already removed the iron from the stone house. A little iron to build a blacksmith is correct. So it should be only an additional material for special buildings.
The merchant of farm supplies is 1 of 10. Just like the building supplies. Probably you had some bad luck with and actually... trading docks.
What is your map? Valley, medium, harsh? And what should I change to get you in trouble except of the start? :)
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 18, 2016, 03:07:42 AM
Ok, salmon will be reduced to 1 and the different between fishing spot and dock will be the amount instead of the trade value. Fishing is a bit difficult to understand. In my tests I could not notice an effect of the reduced radius or of a defined work time. Thats why I needed the new specie.
yeah fishing does work like that , reduce the radius and get less fish ^^
it is always %water versus %total of tiles in the circle.
if you reduce and get more water %, then you get more fish
if you reduce and get less water %, then yes you get less fish ^^
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 18, 2016, 03:07:42 AM
Ey, your settlement is working as if it were an easy mode. You are swimming in bricks and food.^^
Yes, after the first few years it wasn't very difficult, much thanks to the salmon. Even if there are not many merchants selling building materials, I have cash enough to buy all they bring, so I kind of swim in bricks. I have also no real feeling how much I need, so better too much than too little.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 18, 2016, 03:07:42 AM
A school we can make. Not easy to find a photo that you can easily recognize as a school. And it should be a small village school in old style. Maybe one of this...?
School number 2 I wouldn't recognize as a school. That one must be very special for that place. The other two are very typical for larger village schools (I went 1 class in one looking just like the first) The "problem" is, there were much more than 20 children in such a school. But there were also smaller schools, not looking much different from a normal house. One typical thing; they have larger and more windows than a normal house. I attach a picture. One of the old schools in my village looks pretty much the same. (No school for the last 100 years or so, but it´s still called "gamla småskolan")
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 18, 2016, 03:07:42 AM
At the moment there is no merchant who sells iron and other raw materials. OK, you need it at the moment and most of all you'd just buy it. But I'm not sure if we should have it. It helps to break a single strategy by producing one thing and buy all for it.
I don't mind. In fact, I find it a good idea. I was a bit short on iron for a while, but now I've built a mine so it's no problem anymore. I've also noticed that you can't sell everything. There are some things no merchant want to buy. These things might even make the trade more interesting.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 18, 2016, 03:07:42 AM
Nice that the money gives a realistic feeling for the trade. We need the specialized trading docks for it. And maybe you will need money for storage and transport later.
Maybe it's too easy to simply exchange food by the food merchants?
I'm not sure you need any specialized trading ports. It works fine with different merchants arriving to the same port. I don't see how it could improve the trade, at least not in this early stage of the game. Maybe I think different, when the settlement grows. I will keep it in mind.
I think it's good to keep some trade "food against food", that you have the possibility to improve the food diversity without paying with coins. If you want to make it harder, I think it's better to change the trading values.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 18, 2016, 03:07:42 AM
This statusbar is difficult. There is only a certain amount of flags and counters. I found no way to make it better. There is no number to fill this empty cell. And I needed a standalone flag for the money. The best option was the combining of iron and coal to get it. We really need more options to use flags. To define our own or a handful of blank flags to use for new stuff.
I thought it might be something like that. It's inconvenient, but no real problem as soon as you have a city hall. But somehow the limit of coins and iron are connected. I once transferred coins from one port to another and the mine stopped to work, because the limit of iron (really coins) was reached. I also had warning that I was running out of iron as the coins disappeared into the port again.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 18, 2016, 03:07:42 AM
What is your map? Valley, medium, harsh? And what should I change to get you in trouble except of the start? :)
In this game it's medium map, valley, medium climate.
The very first years were hard, as you know, so there's no need of making it even harder (I could choose harsh climate myself). What could be done to make the next steps harder? First as you suggest; salmon worth 1 and lower production of trout. Then I think it would be interesting to make it harder to earn money. I can "buy" every daler the merchant for Nordic products" brings (from that other merchant not). I primary sell salmon and venison. If he doesn't want these things, it would be much harder.
There's also one other thing I really want to be changed: the farming. The way the harvest is done (farmer only harvest, not carrying the crops away) makes it way too easy, much easier than in a vanilla game in a normal climate. You don't have to bother about barns and short distances. I don't like the rich immortal orchards either. I know, it's annoying when half of your trees are small and don't bring any fruit, but this fact also makes the game interesting. You have to make new decisions all the time:(Should I build any orchards at all or buy the fruit/nuts, if I decide to have orchards; should I cut all trees down before any one of them dies, use the logs and wait 3 years until next harvest or endure low harvest) decisions all the time. This makes Banished interesting, also after playing it a lot.
Please, change it to the way it was in your last version. It was possible to farm, if you choose the right crops and worked active with the farming. You never got 100% (as you do now most the time) but still most years a decent harvest.
I can understand that some people who likes to concentrate on other things than survival, like it the way it is. But aren't there mods that makes farming easier, that could be combined with your Nordic theme, if you want it that way? As I understand it, you want your mod to be a challenge and I don't think this easy farming fit into that.
I haven't said much about the ongoing game, but it still works very well, population grows, everyone gets a beautiful red house, all are happy and healthy. I have some "annoying" fields and orchards. I have also started to look at production numbers and possible export goods (except salmon and venison) and I must say;
@Tom Sawyer you are the master of balancing . I like very much that it's no obvious best trading good. I think it changes during the game what's best. Your principle; raw material - some profit to sell, simple processing - a bit more profit, complex processing - more profit, is very good. You have to decide: should I sell iron (12), make iron tools (22, profit 2 each tool), make steel (26, profit 4 each steel) or make steel tools (32 profit 10 each tool) There´s no obvious answer to that. At least not one, that's valid for the whole game. Well done
@Tom Sawyer !
Rud18
Not nice, farmers just harvest.
Rud 26
Nice. The mining company makes its "standard" homes for its emplyees.
Aha... easy mode. ;)
But good to test it on fair first, to check the farming and so on. Your next game please on harsh/impossible. The new harsh is colder than the old version. It's about the temperatur profile of Lapland. I want your opinion.
Your skola looks like a cottage. I make a smaller version of this gamla skola of the fors station.^^
The mine is fixed and will use the right limit. It's now just one limit for both materials. A nice side effect.
The event is now labeled with "The reserve of money is low." Maybe you will store money out of your trading posts when you are swimming in cash and not in bricks. So it could make sense.
With the auto-pickup I will follow your advice. But keep in mind that you are on fair. On harsh maybe you will hate your farmers that they not quickly harvest the stuff. But I agree with you. The player should have to think about short ways and placing barns next to the fields or hire more workers. So there are some options to manage it.
Do you mean, the fruit trees do not die soon enough? I made some changes to the orchards. I reduced the planting density to 3x3 and increased the time of growth to 3 years instead of 2 because the cold climate. They should die after 15 years. If you cut them down you will get firewood and no building material. I think it's realistic but if you want it in another way, we do it.
Then I will make an update.
@RedKetchup thanks. Yes that is what I found out too. You need just an exposed spot with maximum area ratio and no overlapping of another fishing radius.
Quote from: Nilla on July 17, 2016, 05:56:37 AM
Quote from: irrelevant on July 16, 2016, 07:17:41 PM
@Nilla this sounds like fun, looking forward to giving it a try. I can't resist "impossible." ;) You did great, of course. Pop Queen :D
Thank you, nice to see something from you again! Yes this mod is really good. I think you would appreciate it, too. But this blog might be a spoiler. You don't have to make the mistakes I did. I'm sorry if I take away some of the fun.
@Nilla Well, I only read your OP the one time, and in the course of my struggle to get the game running again, I forgot everything you wrote.
My first town, all my guys froze. I built the barn first so I could start storing food. Stupid, folks can live two months without food, but only one month in the cold with no coats.
My second town, all my guys starved, cause although I got the house built and the barn, I didn't collect enough food. Fishing is an attractive waste of effort, and hunting those damn wily reindeer is very hard. My deer whispering skills count for naught here!
Third time, after losing 3 adults and 2 children to starvation in the first year, we've made it to year five. Got the blacksmith built in early four, only to discover that iron tools require coal! That slowed me down a bit while I built a charcoal burner. Fortunately I had figured out that the guys you have gathering food in the warm times, you set to collecting firewood in the snow, so I had a good supply of fuel. There are three houses and three tiny barns, and I just got a gatherers hut and a forester built. Wondering about the gatherer though, we'll see if it is worth it, only collecting food half the year. I'm thinking a hunter's cabin won't be much good either, as slippery as those reindeer are. Maybe with a full staff they can work. I'm thinking a big fishing dock might be good also. And a school would really help a lot.
Can't get screenshots to work, so no pics.
@Tom Sawyer A fun mod! Thanks very much! Playing on Harsh weather, it's brutal. Looking forward to seeing what further pain awaits me. ;D
He, he! I see you made the same mistakes as I did,
@irrelevant but you're better; only needing 3 attempts. I needed 5, but than no one had to starve. ;)
And you are really daring! Playing at harsh climate. I was more careful, but I will play my next game on harsh. I'm sure you made the right decision, fair climate will be too easy for you.
To the school
@Tom Sawyer ; I think your decision to make a smaller version of your first picture is right. My picture is too similar to the normal red cottages, but the older schools looked just like that, you can see them everywhere, used as normal houses (or summer houses) today. Some time, I think around 1850, they increased the years the children went to school from 4 to 6 years. It was also in a time of large population growth, so the old schools became too small. These new bigger schools were than used until the 1960s, where many modern schools, still used, were built. The teacher lived upstairs. My old school also had a room for handicraft there. One funny little thing, that you might use to separate the look of the school from the other buildings. Outside there was a privy (1960s, no warm water toilet inside :-\ don't say we're not a tough generation). It was a small, long, narrow building with 3 doors (one for boys, one for girls and one slightly bigger for the teachers)
And I do apologize about the orchards. I was too quick to judge them as immortal, now some trees die. The changed times make sense, also that you make firewood, if you chop them down (although every decent cabinet maker want to cut my throat, as I say making firewood from cherrywood makes sense ;) ). And thanks, I would like to have the normal harvesting behaviour back. Look at the picture: 1 farmer working a very short time, makes almost 1000 food (even worth 2 if any merchant want to buy it). In a normal game I would have to send 4 farmers to pick them all, and they will have to work longer. OK, sometimes the summer is cold and the cherries doesn't grow full and I suppose it will happen most the time in harsh climate. But this behaviour also gave me new trouble. This year there will be no cherries in this fruit farm. The cherries stayed all winter outside on the fields (maybe a good way to preserve the food :-\ But what about the reindeer? I wonder how much cherries they eat. Probably all. ;) ) If one box is left in spring, no cherry will grow that year. I know it's not your fault. I suppose, it's the same, as if there is one pot left on the field, it will not be planted.
I have started to test the moneytrading system without trading any salmon or venison for coins. In fact I only sell a little venison to get some wheat (I grew some a few years but it doesn´t work very well, not even in medim climate). I sold no salmon at all lately. My treasury still gets bigger, the stores of food and bricks still increase, but not at all as fast as it did before. As I said in my last entry, I'm not sure at all what's best to sell. I'm doing a bit of testing. I can probably say more after playing again tonight.
@irrelevant Nice that your game is running now. And welcome to the hell of snow. ;D
@Nilla This funny little thing I have on my list as a decorative or with a tiny happiness radius to be placed next to the cottages.
Cherrywood burns very well, i'm sure.^^ In this case, I do not care. Log or firewood. But when I imagine to cut down a fruit plant, it will not be a house. Of course some fine furnitures. If we run out of ideas we make cherrywood, nutwood etc. and build a big IKEA factory to flood the whole banished world with furnitures.
So what about log as your main export? That was my intention but maybe it's to weak. In theory a good forester can produce 100 log = 800 trade value or now we can say 8 daler. With 4 guys 32 in the radius. Not much per area but profitable per worker.
Wow, hunters are great! I don't mean the herder's cabin, I mean the small opportunity hunters you can just plop down next to a herd. If you place them carefully, and there is a barn nearby, you can almost always bag two reindeer before the herd spooks away. I think the key there is to place the marker off to the side, so it is not adjacent to any of the reindeer. If you put it too close, the herd will freak out and relocate right away.
Also, you don't need to get deer sprites inside the circle. Your hunter will move to the icon, and if any reindeer are grazing nearby (within a couple of squares of the circle) he will bag one.
It's even better when you don't have a barn. The hunter keeps killing reindeer, leaving the meat and fur on the ground.
Quote from: Turis on July 19, 2016, 10:57:36 PM
It's even better when you don't have a barn. The hunter keeps killing reindeer, leaving the meat and fur on the ground.
If they have no barn at all they do. It's a very good strategy for the first year or so; if a herd arrives, send the hunters, fake demolish the barn. One hunter could kill 4-5 deer this way. But this is no good long term strategy. You will notice; if you hunt one herd too hard, there will be very few animals left the next time this herd arrives. As in life; you have to hunt with care.
Quote from: irrelevant on July 19, 2016, 07:09:53 PM
Wow, hunters are great! I don't mean the herder's cabin, I mean the small opportunity hunters you can just plop down next to a herd. If you place them carefully, and there is a barn nearby, you can almost always bag two reindeer before the herd spooks away. I think the key there is to place the marker off to the side, so it is not adjacent to any of the reindeer. If you put it too close, the herd will freak out and relocate right away.
Also, you don't need to get deer sprites inside the circle. Your hunter will move to the icon, and if any reindeer are grazing nearby (within a couple of squares of the circle) he will bag one.
I had the impression too, that the deer will run away as soon as the hunter arrives, but according to
@Tom Sawyer, he hasn't made such a behaviour. I suppose it's just coincidence, I really think it doesn't matter how you place the circle.
But the herdsmen in the cabin aren't bad either; two of them will slaughter 8-11 reindeer each year. As far as I see, they work very sustainable, never killing too many animals and you don't have to bother about them. I saw a big differens between 1 and 2 but the 3. (and 4.) herdsman in the cabin didn't make much difference, as I looked into it.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 19, 2016, 02:04:04 PM
So what about log as your main export? That was my intention but maybe it's to weak. In theory a good forester can produce 100 log = 800 trade value or now we can say 8 daler. With 4 guys 32 in the radius. Not much per area but profitable per worker.
Logs main export? No, it never was. I sold some at the beginning, but I could much more easily spare salmon and venison. I would have exported more, if it wasn't possible to trade salmon and venison for coins.
Now, later in the game I have chosen to "refine" the logs to increased the value. I export steel tools. I'm not sure that this is the right decision. Look at the right side of my first picture (the forester is right just outside the picture). It doesn't work very well to locate the blacksmiths to the marketplaces and let the vendors carry the rawmaterial there. I never see coal and iron there. (I put a lot of vendors at one market to see if it works better than, but I forgot to look). Anyhow I built this small metal working village around a mainbarn for iron, coal and steel. It produces about 120 steel tools for export every year, an income of 3640. But for this, you need about 10 people (something like; 2 foresters, 3 miners, 1 woodcutter 2 charcoalburner and 2 blacksmiths). If I counted right, the "basic" is 180 logs and 60 iron, a value of 2160 if I sell them. It's less, but I only need 5 people. This is what I like so much with your balancing. There are not one "right" thing to do (exporting firewood/ale in the vanilla game). What's right changes during the game, depending on how many people there are, how much raw material.........
Now I use some of the firewood to make charcoal (1 charcoalburner produces more than a coalminer) but soon there will not be enough logs, so then I must decide if I import logs to continue with the carcoalburner or use coalminers. I guess coalminer will be the best, but again, I'm not sure.
But of cause, this thoughts have really no sense, as long as you can build 1 more fishinghut. Even if it's not good located, it produces more than 2000 salmon each year with 4 workers. That's more worth than all the steeltools.
Second picture
"Come on guys, they have left us some tasty cherries there again"
"Yes, and when we've eaten them all, we can have the bark from the younger trees as the dessert"
Quote from: Nilla on July 20, 2016, 03:56:14 AM
Quote from: irrelevant on July 19, 2016, 07:09:53 PM
I think the key there is to place the marker off to the side, so it is not adjacent to any of the reindeer. If you put it too close, the herd will freak out and relocate right away.
I had the impression too, that the deer will run away as soon as the hunter arrives, but according to @Tom Sawyer, he hasn't made such a behaviour. I suppose it's just coincidence, I really think it doesn't matter how you place the circle.
I think this behavior is baked into the deer AI. Regular deer will do it too; if you build a structure too close to where a herd is grazing, the herd will move to another location. At least this is what I believe I have seen, many times.
Quote from: irrelevant on July 20, 2016, 05:42:39 AM
I think this behavior is baked into the deer AI. Regular deer will do it too; if you build a structure too close to where a herd is grazing, the herd will move to another location. At least this is what I believe I have seen, many times.
You might be right, anyhow this small hunter is very valuable at the beginning.
I've made some tests and there is definitely a reaction of the herd. Not directly on placing the hunting marker but on killing a deer or while a hunter is incoming but I think at this moment the kill is fxed. It seems as if the decrease of the herd is an event to move on. And probably the presence of buildings has an effect too, in general.
As always, nice to see your numbers
@Nilla And oops, the market can't store iron and coal (coalfuel).
Would you say you need a small special "market" for industries to manage your logistics? To carry raw materials from the surrounding area next to your blacksmith cluster by vendors without the huge and full with food packet marketplace?
Now I have new trade values, fixed mine and market and some gimmicks.^^ Do you wish an update?
I was thinking last night it would be nice to have a smaller market that one could build in lieu of the huge vanilla market.
There are some small markets. In the Small Town Mod for example. Or the Mini (for food only). But I've never seen an industrial warehouse or how to say... for raw materials to support toolmakers and tailors.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 20, 2016, 01:12:43 PM
There are some small markets. In the Small Town Mod for example. Or the Mini (for food only). But I've never seen an industrial warehouse or how to say... for raw materials to support toolmakers and tailors.
There are some of those warehouses, too. The nice and huge stores from
@RedKetchup in NMT, (you can build houses on top of them)
@slink made some more simple but efficient early, as the modkid was new. There are also other specialized barns and stockpiles. I have tried some. They are convenient, increases the productivity; makes it easier. I'm not sure I want that in this mod. It doesn't work bad if you build everything close with a main barn (and of cause also have enough another barns in food production areas)
But I agree with
@irrelevant, it would be nice with a smaller market, or rather a village store, for everything, like a real old Swedish "lanthandel". I "Googeld" a bit and they were allowed from 1822 and were common from 1850. (about the same time as the small country houses were painted red) These big marketplaces doesn't really fit the Nordic theme. Of cause there were markets, but only in the towns (in fact it more or less defined a town, it was allowed to trade there). A marketplace with 10 red cottages and woods or farmland around around it, never existed. Markets (big or small) were only allowed at a few days each year in villages.
I have one more request for an upgrade. I played a little bit earlier tonight and bought some cattle. I didn't do that earlier because I didn't want a third textile to mess up the tailor production. But finally I wanted to test the cattle. They do need much space (I don't mind, it's a cold climate) but my pasture only contains 6 cows and it's quite large, not maximum but maybe 15*15 or something like that. Have you tested if a pasture of 20*20 can hold 10 cows, so it's possible to split a herd? Even if it can, it would be nice to be able to build a little bit larger pastures for the cows.
I've also thought a little bit about the specialized trading ports. I know we have discussed this before and I buy your argument, that you need less trading ports if the merchants arrive often, it's a good thing, but still; I'm a bit disturbed by all the merchants arriving to my 2 ports. (1 port would have been enough, but I wasn't sure I could "buy" enough coins). I don't trade very much. I buy some wheat, bricks and rooftiles and sell some clothing and tools (at present also a little stone, just to get rid of it). With specialized ports the merchants could arrive much more seldom (you will be sure he brings what you want). But on the other hand I would have needed more trading ports.
No screenshot, I forgot to make any but there´s really nothing new to show.
Oh yes, a village shop is an excellent idea. Before supermarkets were built on each meadow, there was in every german village a "Dorfladen", also called "Tante Emma Laden".^^ I found a translation to mom-and-pop store (AE) or corner shop (BE).
Something like that would be great instead of the marketplace. It would be specialiced in food, firewood, clothes etc.. In addition this warehouse for the manufactoring sector with iron, coal, log and textiles. Imagine your tailor is located in your town or at your starting location or near the trading post and you expand your area with many sheep pastures away from this location to go for nordic coat production. The workers carry the wool into the next barn and the tailor must run into the countryside to get his materials. Not good. A market will not help because it's made for other things and full of food. A specialized vendor placed next to the Tailors can provide the material and the tailors can fetch it next door. You are right, there are special stores in NMT but not with this specialization.
Glad you test livestock. I made some tests to see the density in the pastures and to check the productivity. A maximum pasture in your version takes exactly 10 cows. So you can split but you are right. It needs a square pasture and thats not really good. I can increase the density to maybe 12. So a maller or other sized pasture can splitted too. Or I increase the size of the pasture as you said.
I had different types of pastures on my list. A large cow pasture, a sheep-run without fences and a smaller chicken coop. But we can't define the type of livestock. So you could fill the large cow pasture with a mass of chickens or use the open sheep run without building costs for the cattle. Probably you would use the sheep-run for each kind of livestock.
Another problem is, livestock doesn't need workers, not really. A cow pasture with 20x20 produces up to 1500 food + leather in your version with only one worker, not to talk about the milky cow. Very strong but still OK if the trade value is reduced to 1. But we need this pasture size to limit the productivity per worker. Livestock breeding in banished is an easy going food machine.
Your thoughts to trading posts. That's exactly why I favor it. To build your own trade port for the merchants you need. No spam of food merchants if you only want to sell your tools and so on or no more seed and livestock merchants if you have all of it or if you don't want to make farming. Mr. Kid made some small trading posts. I've played with it and it's nice. We just need a couple of other types for exports etc..
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 20, 2016, 01:12:43 PM
There are some small markets. In the Small Town Mod for example. Or the Mini (for food only). But I've never seen an industrial warehouse or how to say... for raw materials to support toolmakers and tailors.
@RedKetchup has created several flavors of specialized markets for his NMT mods. They are very nice. Some are specific to support various manufacturers.
Small Town Row Houses mod (http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=92 (http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=92)) has a small market (two stalls with ~ 6x6 footprint).
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 21, 2016, 05:37:33 AM
Something like that would be great instead of the marketplace. It would be specialiced in food, firewood, clothes etc.. In addition this warehouse for the manufactoring sector with iron, coal, log and textiles. Imagine your tailor is located in your town or at your starting location or near the trading post and you expand your area with many sheep pastures away from this location to go for nordic coat production. The workers carry the wool into the next barn and the tailor must run into the countryside to get his materials. Not good. A market will not help because it's made for other things and full of food. A specialized vendor placed next to the Tailors can provide the material and the tailors can fetch it next door. You are right, there are special stores in NMT but not with this specialization.
I never do such a thing, I mean locating a lot of sheep pastures far away from the tailor. ;) I always plan at least one tailor in sheep areas. But if you want to make these special warehouses, do it. It makes the planning easier, but you don't get "something for nothing" (Oh, I can also quote modern songs, normally my quotes comes from the 1960s or 1970s I wonder if
@irrelevant knows this one) ;) . As long as you need vendors and they are not only specialized barns, I find it OK. You have to decide; What is best: to use one more worker, to carry the wool to the right place and have one (or more) high productive tailors or is it better to build another tailor and accept a lover productivity.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 21, 2016, 05:37:33 AM
Glad you test livestock. I made some tests to see the density in the pastures and to check the productivity. A maximum pasture in your version takes exactly 10 cows. So you can split but you are right. It needs a square pasture and that's not really good. I can increase the density to maybe 12. So a maller or other sized pasture can splitted too. Or I increase the size of the pasture as you said.
I had different types of pastures on my list. A large cow pasture, a sheep-run without fences and a smaller chicken coop. But we can't define the type of livestock. So you could fill the large cow pasture with a mass of chickens or use the open sheep run without building costs for the cattle. Probably you would use the sheep-run for each kind of livestock.
Another problem is, livestock doesn't need workers, not really. A cow pasture with 20x20 produces up to 1500 food + leather in your version with only one worker, not to talk about the milky cow. Very strong but still OK if the trade value is reduced to 1. But we need this pasture size to limit the productivity per worker. Livestock breeding in banished is an easy going food machine.
I have a somehow "kätzerishe Idee" as you Germans say; What if you take away the cows? Maybe people held a cow or two to get some milk but there were certainly no big cow herds in north Sweden 100 or 200 years ago. I'm sure they couldn't be fed during the winter. If you then reduce the productivity of eggs a bit, I think the pastures are quite OK. Maybe you could reduce the production of mutton a bit more , but it's not all too overpowered anymore. By the way; why did you increase the density of the sheep?
To trade prizes of food: I think it would be interesting (and harder to build a growing prosperous settlement in a harsh climate) if you never could trade food and get more, if you understand what I mean (sell 1000 venison and get 3000 wheat). I would like the opposite. If you want food, you can't produce or only produce with difficulties, it should cost you more than you give.
That means
Fish 1
Meat 1 (or 2 I don't really know, maybe 1 is too hard)
Vegetables 2
Fruit 2
Grain 2 (or maybe even 3 if you want to trouble us a lot)
Exotic products; choose any prize you want >2
This will also make a great difference in difficulties between the chosen climates. At harsh, where farming gives very much less (I don't know how much less but I guess, it will be very hard to be selfsufficient on fruit and vegetables and grain is totally impossible). You will have to buy a lot of expensive food or accept a not very healthy population. At fair you can farm, probably even enough to be selfsufficient on fruit and vegetables but you will have to struggle and you will have to buy expensive grain to keep your population´s full health. At mild I'm sure you can grow all kind of food and the import prices are not important. That means this mod could be interesting for more or less all kind of players.
Edit
(I, ve been told about my German misspelling, sorry all Germans, but I will not change it, it became quite funny this way)
Let's keep the cattle. Probably, it's not possible to remove it. And in southern Sweden (mild), there are surely cows. I could paint the cows as Galloways. They should tolerate the climate.^^ Basically you don't need cows, thats right. People will not buy it in a Nordic game, because they can make warm clothes without them. So all we should do is to set the productivity of the cattle to a right relation.
I don't know. I had the impression, vanilla sheep would not look like a real flock of sheep. It's just a visual thing. Realistic would be 1 cow to 5 sheep but thats not really important for banished. It should look right. Do you have the impression it looks too crowded in the sheep pasture?
Food values are at the moment:
wheat: 1 (Let's see how it works with lower fish and meat prices on harsh.)
corn: 2 (from warm regions)
potato, cabbage and beans: 1
maybe pumpkin and squash 2 (or 1, I'm not sure)
mushroom: 2 (rare)
pepper: 3 (exotic)
apple, pear, cherry, plum and berries: 2
peaches: 3 (exotic)
walnut: 2
pecan and chestnut: 3 (exotic)
fish: 1
mutton: 1
beef 1 (or 2 if the cattle will be extremely nerfed. It should not be a good export.)
venison 2 (because limited and a reindeer herder should be competitive to a sheep herder)
It's difficult. For a good balance we would need higher prices with a factor of 10 or so. To make smaller steps.
OK, I will try it with these prizes. But I still think that you should not be able to buy food for food and double the amount (venison - wheat as example) But we will see how it works. Maybe it's harder as I think with a harsh climate.
Harsh is very hard, but once I finally got my first TP up in year 12 and started trading salmon and venison for wheat, trout, cherries, and veggies, food inventory really took off.
Why do I want to buy coins? I know I saw something about that but can't find it now. Is it just to relieve pressure on storage? Or as a hedge against possible future resource shortages?
Quote from: irrelevant on July 21, 2016, 04:45:18 PM
Is it just to relieve pressure on storage? Or as a hedge against possible future resource shortages?
I could not say it better in my poor English. Of course, primarily to buy food and other goods. But thats right, a barn can store a lot more money than food. Hundredfold, to be exact. Another thing was that you can carry much more in the form of money. And that a trader will not do these ineffective runs. But that's theory.
You want the coins
@irrelevant to buy bricks and rooftiles. Otherwise you cannot build these niece red houses (and for me it's part of the fun). You can use the NMT-mod and produce them, but if not, there is no other way than to trade, and the merchants only take cash!
But it is also obvious, that coins save space and work from traders. I never let the money leave the ports (except once at the beginning as I transferred some from the first to the second port). You can store big value that way and never (or at least hardly) run out of space in the ports, what often happens to me, if I trade a lot in a vanilla game)
Quote from: Nilla on July 21, 2016, 12:56:42 PM
I never do such a thing, I mean locating a lot of sheep pastures far away from the tailor. ;) I always plan at least one tailor in sheep areas. But if you want to make these special warehouses, do it. It makes the planning easier, but you don't get "something for nothing" (Oh, I can also quote modern songs, normally my quotes comes from the 1960s or 1970s I wonder if @irrelevant knows this one) ;) .
@Nilla You got me on this one ;D
What is the density for sheep pastures in this mod? I want some sheep but don't want to build a pasture too small.
Never mind, figured it out, it's like 12 squares/sheep
Bingo! :)
Quote from: irrelevant on July 23, 2016, 06:09:57 PM
@Nilla You got me on this one ;D
My daughter and I both like music documentaries, and use to watch such films as she visits. Often about some old stars (Johnny Cash and Bob Dylan this summer) but occasionally she shows me some more modern stuff. This song was from a film about Dave Grohl, Foo Fighters. Normally I wouldn't have known it either and to be honest, I don't remember the song. But I remember the title. The idiom "something for nothing" somehow spoke to me and that's what I remember and thought about the moment I wrote.