I have been reading all the articles about Microsoft wanting to buy the Minecraft studio and it got me to thinking about where I hope Banished eventually goes.
NO NOT MICROSOFT!
Minecraft is not that complex a game but really brings out the imagination and design skills of many players. It seems like it would be easy to get bored with Minecraft but that does not seem to happen. With mods really opening up Banished, I hope it becomes a game that is able to capture the interest of people who like to build, design, and participate in that kind of community.
What do you think?
How is Minecraft different and what could modders do to make Banished the kind of game Minecraft has become?
Well, I don't know Minecraft, but I do know computer operating systems rather well having played with them since 1962 (I am retired).
SRS is making a grave error in going with Visual Studio. They are locking themselves to what may very quickly turn into a dead horse in the near future. You have only to look at the utter failure of Windows 8 to understand where I am coming from.
It is not too late to abandon VS and get with something more open to portability. Since I am a long time Linux user, I suggest GTK+. There are enough 3D packages around in the GNUniverse for the development to switch over. Most of these packages are either free or very low cost.
Using GNU Make enables portability of a high order. You only have to look at a multi-platform program like wine to understand how to compile for almost any platform.
Today, I downloaded the 1.0.4 patch and implemented it. Works just fine thanks and I will have to pick up a mod or two to see how they function.
I also downloaded the mod kit. For me to use that software I would have to pollute my wine environment with garbage I just don't need. The VS dependencies are not my ball of wax, mostly because I've been retired for so long that I don't care to program anything any more. So I won't be originating any mods. It is all very well for the young and keen Windows-oriented programmers to play with this, but I am just too out of date and too tired.
In any case, there are many better solutions for a company that is in the business of making a profit than dumping huge amounts of what is probably capital funds into Microsoft's coffers. Look around, gentlemen. Microsoft isn't the only horse on the pasture. Some of them are even Arabians by comparison to those plodding Percherons. The deeper you go into the MS morass of special controls and tricks, the more locked in your code becomes.
I understand the concerns, however, I think what you have an issue with is not VS but the language being used in VS.
C++ is still the global giant in programming for reliable, secure programs. Java is much more likely the disaster that is going away and the sooner the better. VS can be used to program in just about any language. I think Luke is headed towards a better code base, VS just made it easy to for him to get something out there.
You do bring up a good point in looking at the code and compatibility though and it does carry over to who and how many can enjoy Banished. Thanks for the reply
@A Nonny Moose!
Windows 8 a failure? Not hardly but there are some who don't like change.
Not all change is for the better. ;)
bah me i use and i love Windows 7. i dont like Windows 8 , but , in my mind Windows 8 is great for tablets and pods
i dont have alot of thoughts about C++ and VS (i guess you mean by VS Visual Studio?) i m not a programmer, i would have loved to ... learned and being super good.
but the thing that surprising me .... will Luke sell to Microsoft ? i never heard anything about Luke selling ... but maybe i was too much focussing to MOD :P
Quote from: RedKetchup on September 13, 2014, 05:48:59 PM
bah me i use and i love Windows 7. i dont like Windows 8 , but , in my mind Windows 8 is great for tablets and pods
i dont have alot of thoughts about C++ and VS (i guess you mean by VS Visual Studio?) i m not a programmer, i would have loved to ... learned and being super good.
but the thing that surprising me .... will Luke sell to Microsoft ? i never heard anything about Luke selling ... but maybe i was too much focussing to MOD :P
No, there are not even rumors of Luke selling to MS, A Nonny Moose was just saying part of Lukes problem was using a MS specific platform for programming. The platform is not so much the problem as the limitations of the language and libraries he originally used for Banished. It just made things easier for him being a one man studio.
Quote from: slink on September 13, 2014, 05:33:23 PM
Not all change is for the better. ;)
I agree, and yet it happens. Oh well!
ah ok
Quote from: solarscreen on September 14, 2014, 05:46:04 AM
Quote from: slink on September 13, 2014, 05:33:23 PM
Not all change is for the better. ;)
I agree, and yet it happens. Oh well!
I just get tired of people (not including you) who fire off charges of "You're just afraid of change!" every time someone doesn't like their new doohickey. Losing a leg is change, too. I was about to add "and who would want that?", but then I remembered an article in the past year about a girl who wanted surgeons to cut off her legs so she could live the rest of her life in a wheelchair the way some elderly relative of hers did. There was literally no other reason for her request. I guess there is a market for anything. ;D
@solarscreen : I have absolutely no problem with C++. I've been using it and its forerunners ever since Bjarny Soustrup proposed it. I spent at least 10 years teaching it.
My problem is with Microsoft's dialect and some of the things they do that make the code/controls dependent on Windoze, and particularly on DirectX as opposed to OpenGL which is the future. DirectX is a PITA and will never be implemented as part of a GPU yet many of the modern ones recognize OpenGL calls. This should say something.
The interesting thing is that all of the GNU tools including the compiler (g++) are available for all platforms including Windoze.
The problem is that MS has done such a strong marketing job that they have people brain-washed into believing they are the only way to go. It doesn't matter what you write your code with or in as long as it generates executable text, preferably capable of relocation.
However, for development purposes, it is better to avoid software providers that want to control what you are doing. Almost all the GNU-based systems are no cost to the user unless you are a commercial outfit and even then the licenses are not onerous. This generally means that starting up a new outfit is more economic.
Over the years I've worked in association with various development shops, some using proprietary software and some using publicly available programs from the Free Software Foundation and the GNU project. The more productive shops were the latter.
When I first encountered the *NIX environment, I was surprised at how easily it could be picked up. Of course at that time everyone was an assembly programmer, so new HLLs were considered to be a blessing. I am not so sure that is any longer the case. C/C++ has become a very much standard language and this is something I agree with. Offshoots such as Python only seek to simplify the syntax slightly, while others are parallel (Java).
Overall, development shops that I have been associated with worked mostly in C/C++, but one was BCPL, one of PL/1, and several were commercial COBOL shops.
Now Windows 8 fails the test of expected performance. Two incompatible desktops, and most computers do not have touch screens. The Metro interface should be a default only on machines that have a
detected touch screen. Many functions from Windows 7 seem to have been denigrated or removed entirely. Abrupt changes without notice are rather not done by a reputable outfit. The dog-in-the-manger attitude with the UEFI machines is also reprehensible. Whoever decided to shut out the dual boot using this feature, which fortunately can be easily undone, was being exceedingly stupid.
Touch screens for large displays, by the way, are an invitation to "gorilla arm" and/or carpal tunnel syndrome.
I love listening to people who know programming talk to each other,
@A Nonny Moose and
@solarscreen. I learn so much. As a non-programmer who does understand something of XML and XSLT and their relatives--and who hopes to learn more about scripting languages--I've appreciated the approach to modding taken by Civ 5. It gives me the chance to try things out based on what I do know and learn more. I would hope that Banished would go in that sort of direction--not necessarily use XML, but put out a mod kit that isn't quite so opaque. How
@RedKetchup keeps coming out with what he does, I cannot figure out. Not to say I won't keep trying!
I didn't want this thread to be about programming and OSes, however, it has and killed my original question.
Now:
I use Windows 8.1u1 on over a dozen machines myself, none of which have touch. It is easy to use and cuts down on the use of the mouse by allowing you to search for anything from the Start Screen - just start typing. arrow down to your selection and press Enter. The OS itself is much improved under the hood and offers many features and functions that Windows 7 requires third party, insecure applications to be installed to provide.
Windows 8 has a ways to go before it will exceed Windows 7 (50% of desktops) or even XP (25% of desktops) But at @6% and climbing it has done well in moving MS towards a unified OS for all platforms and making an easy environment to operate in no matter where you are or device you are using.
Linux remains a niche market - it is too splintered and confusing for users and is not easy for owners to repair when it corrupts due to an odd gnome or kde desktop error.
Of late, a lot of the so called security you can gain from the use of Linux has been negated by UAC in Windows 7 and 8, has been proven to not be secure as more and more C libraries are exposed with HUGE holes from the negligent use of memcopy and other lazy techniques that are proving to be a big problem. OpenSSL and OpenSSH are prime examples but not the only ones.
MS development tools are going to obviously direct you to use MS APIs and techniques. 95% of the desktop/laptop market is MS and they would prefer you do things right to help eliminate lazy technique, shortcuts, and preferences that make MS compatible products less secure and less stable.
I have no problem with whatever a user wants to use for an OS, it's all point and click to me. It's sad however that there is so much disinformation about MS, MS products, and hatred by a few MS haters out there who spend more time trashing MS everywhere they can instead of just using their preferred product and teaching others how to use it and enjoy it.
I say all this not as an attack on anyone or to insult the intelligence of any professional. It is merely my opinion based on 35 years desktop/server experience as an IT professional who has managed thousands of desktops and laptops and thousands of servers, physical and virtual.
Enjoy your preferences and help others to determine what would work best for them based on their requirements and desires. Then teach them how to be secure regardless of selection.
A side note on carpal tunnel:
80% of carpal tunnel is actually caused by misaligned and pinched nerves in the neck. This radiates down the arm and manifests itself in the wrists. The main cause of this is hanging your arms down in the air with only your palms/wrists resting on a keyboard or keyboard rest.
You need to get your arms up onto the desktop from the elbow down to the hands and sitting or standing at a level so that there is no pull on your neck vertebrae.
I don't hate MS. In fact, I rather admire their tenacity and marketing strategy. It is, however, rather unethical of them to take advantage of the ignorance of the market to run roughshod over ordinary end-users.
However, I've been on the receiving end of software groups in the past and know just how much some of them can resist the slightest change. I was, in fact, chairman of one user group's software committee at a time when the vendor was developing a new operating system from the existing one and wanted to drop a feature that had been in place for over 20 years. It was in use by less than 1% of the users, and easily done away with, but the screaming about it was more like the company had threatened their new born.
I had retired when Vista came out, and my machine was too small to fit this elephant into my breadbox, so I looked around. Various versions of Linux were tried on my machine, all of which worked but many lacked a nice end-user interface and were too dependent on console work for my taste, even though I grew up on command lines in the 1960s (in those days it was called JCL). Over the next couple of years, I eventually arrived at Ubuntu (a version of Linux) which has now progressed to the point where I can safely recommend it to most "unaware" users. The desktop is very XP-like with some variations. Unless you are a serious user of more than a browser and a mail-client, this O/S will serve adequately.
Anyone who looks "under the hood" of any operating system has to be more aware of what he is doing than the average bear. It is easier to do this with a *NIX type system than Windows basically because everything is open and not held as a proprietary trade secret.
Gamers in general are a rare breed in some cases, especially those who engage in creating mods, which is a rather arcane branch of programming. These people often get dragged kicking and screaming into the whole milieu of computer programming will they, nil they, because sooner or later they get to the point where they need to understand what is really happening in the box of tricks. This is often complicated by trying to understand the code of the original game maker, who is usually a cracker-jack programmer of some serious experience. If I have to dig into something, I don't like to find corporate walls set up against my understanding. Getting anything out of proprietary O/S maker is practically impossible, and may be illegal. However, if I really want to find something out, I can. I'd rather not have to.
Hey
@A Nonny Moose, thanks for the discussion and keeping it at a civil level. :)
I'm definitely not saying you hate MS, I don't know anything about you and I'd rather not get to that level on the forum anyway. I do think a lot of MS hate has tainted the proper discussion and use of MS software. I also think the vast majority of MS customers are the cause of a lot of their problems. I would hesitate to say MS as a whole is unethical in this business practices. The have spent billions doing their homework and studying how people do things with their computing devices and how they would prefer to do things. Aggressively pursuing success can sometimes seem unethical. McDonalds and Walmart have this problem too.
I don't blame you for changing when Vista came out. That was definitely not a good release. Reminds me of Windows ME. I can also understand issues with Windows 8 because so many people are left out on their own to figure things out and frustration is the usual result. I always work with people I know who have moved over to 8 and take about 2 hours hands on to help them understand and use their new OS. We tailor it to do what they need and then I ask them to work with it for 2 weeks calling on me if they need help. Nearly everyone I have done this with is happy with the results.
We need differing opinions in order to be sure we see things as close to objectively as possible. None of us are objective so several viewpoints from varied backgrounds can help paint a better picture. Please continue to support and defend the need for more appropriate programming and agnostic platform support. We need that regardless of preferences.
I would also ask that you consider posting tips and helps for Linux users in making banished and other games work with their OS. We can even create a board for Linux users if that would help.
I appreciate your effort to educate my opinions, I have strong ones and they sometimes need sanding. :)
@solarscreen : Just a quick bio so you'll know where I am coming from.
I got started in the computer industry in 1962 working for a Canadian Chartered Bank and was on the selection committee for their first main frame. I've been in the industry ever since, first as an assembly language programmer, then as tools provider, then as manager and consultant. I've worked for three computer manufacturers and several service bureaus. I spent my last 10 years or so in the work force teaching computer science at a college. Much of the teaching was programming with various languages including C/C++ which are my preferred languages for O/S work. I have limited to no game programming experience, but was always on the application side except when I was coding/debugging operating software. My 77th birthday is this Saturday.
When I started you had to write your own drivers for most peripherals, and sometimes there wasn't even an assembly program and you had to toggle the program in from the console. One of my earliest successful projects was a macro that could not only call in a printer driver but could then be used to expedite it's use in the manner of a report writer. In 1964 this was a big deal.
Quote from: A Nonny Moose on September 15, 2014, 08:41:07 AM
When I started you had to write your own drivers for most peripherals, and sometimes there wasn't even an assembly program and you had to toggle the program in from the console. One of my earliest successful projects was a macro that could not only call in a printer driver but could then be used to expedite it's use in the manner of a report writer. In 1964 this was a big deal.
Ah, the good old days! One of my early adventures as a computer user who tries to understand what is going on was as a graduate school registrar in the early 80s. The institution had a shiny new DEC computer and bought software from a school in Northern California (written by their IT guy) to do course registration, student records and billing. In the process I had received one of the early NEC small, desk top printers so I could print reports on my own without bothering the IT guys constantly. First report I tried to print, it did the first three lines nicely and then on the forth line switched to Japanese. ??? Got the printer re-set to English and tried again with the same result. After consulting with our IT guys and the software author, it turned out that the same control code that told his printer to print in 132 columns told my printer to print in Japanese characters. That was my first lesson in "peripherals."
I got started about 12 years after you did. Moved along a more systems track rather than programming although I have dabbled from time to time just to be familiar. I started out with a DEC PDP-11 and then a few AIX machines. I moved from that side of the house to MS as my work became more end user related. Windows XP drove me crazy with lack of security so I moved back over to the server side and focused on virtualization and integration.
I have loaded just about every distro of Linux at one time or another but never fell in love with any of them. Ubuntu has looked interesting with Unity but not enough to change over to. I even ran a Hackintosh with Snow Leopard for a year. I spend so much time in the MS realm I guess I'm comfortable there.
Over the last couple of years as people ask me what to replace their computer with, I ask them what eco-system they live in - Apple, Android, Amazon, Windows... then I find out what they actually use their computer for. If it's just email, Facebook, Twitter, and simple games I point them to an appropriate tablet and get them away from a big machine that needs lots of support.
QuoteHow is Minecraft different and what could modders do to make Banished the kind of game Minecraft has become?
Haven't read the rest of the thread yet (this is from the OP), nor have I ever played Minecraft. However, Timber and Stone, the early builds at least, was quite similar in the building aspect, and that is something I liked a lot with that game (it since took a direction towards more and tougher combat). Building stuff with blocks like Minecraft (and Timber and Stone) does really opens up options as the imagination is quite literally the limitation.
Something like this won't be possible in Banished, but it would be great with more variety when modding takes off. Or perhaps some other means to build buildings using raw material instead of the 'finished' product (Hunting cabin, etc). I'd love to be able to build a castle on top of a mountain for example. Yummie! 8)
(I see this thread has gone a... little off-topic :D)
Quote from: Pangaea on September 15, 2014, 09:27:13 AM
QuoteHow is Minecraft different and what could modders do to make Banished the kind of game Minecraft has become?
Haven't read the rest of the thread yet (this is from the OP), nor have I ever played Minecraft. However, Timber and Stone, the early builds at least, was quite similar in the building aspect, and that is something I liked a lot with that game (it since took a direction towards more and tougher combat). Building stuff with blocks like Minecraft (and Timber and Stone) does really opens up options as the imagination is quite literally the limitation.
Something like this won't be possible in Banished, but it would be great with more variety when modding takes off. Or perhaps some other means to build buildings using raw material instead of the 'finished' product (Hunting cabin, etc). I'd love to be able to build a castle on top of a mountain for example. Yummie! 8)
(I see this thread has gone a... little off-topic :D)
Thanks for bringing it back around!
Castles sound fun!
Hopefully we will get to be able to mod so we can have different environments with all the different buildings and jobs. Africa, Asia, Oceanic, Amazon Rain Forest,... that kind of thing.
That sounds like fun. Playing as Vikings would be fun too, in a cold and tough climate.
Speaking about linux and such, I've tried quite a few distros as well, but always found it difficult to stay with them, because I run into some trouble and have no idea how to fix it. Windows sucks in many ways, but at least I know my way around it, and things usually work without any fuss. I quite liked Linux Mint, though, a variant that could be customised to the hilt and back. But as I usually just surf the net or play games on the computer, at some point it was simply easier to go back to the slave owner :-\
When I bought a new computer with SSD, I did cut it in half, intending to install Linux on the other half, but I've not yet done it, and it's been probably 3-4 months now...
Quote from: solarscreen on September 15, 2014, 09:24:54 AM
Over the last couple of years as people ask me what to replace their computer with, I ask them what eco-system they live in - Apple, Android, Amazon, Windows... then I find out what they actually use their computer for. If it's just email, Facebook, Twitter, and simple games I point them to an appropriate tablet and get them away from a big machine that needs lots of support.
For those of you who work or worked in the computer field, the best piece of advice I ever got was from a friend whose advice I asked when I had the money to get my first serious computer. He was a programmer and he told me: "Decide what the best software is for what you want to do and buy the computer that will run that." That's what I did and I'[m still happily running the latest version of the software that did the best job of what I needed software to do. So,
@solarscreen, I think your advice is right on.
As to the original point of this thread (we do get off topic around here, don't we? ;) ) up until I found Banished my three favorite games series have been Sim City (not counting the last one), Railroad Tycoon and Civilization. I have also played almost all of the Impressions "city-builders" from Caesar to Emperor and others of a similar ilk. What I like about my favorites is (1) that they allow (and in some cases encourage) the community to run amuck with modding and customization, and (2) they allow a variety of styles for planning and building a city, railroad empire or civilization. I hope that Banished follows a path that gives a foundation for the kind of communities that have built up around SC 4 and Civs 4 and 5. Unfortunately the last iteration of Sim City did not take the community seriously and did not make SC 4 better. I have yet to buy it. Something similar happened with the latest Railroad Tycoon. There were already issues in the transition from RT 2 to RT 3, but most of those had to do with scenario authors not understanding how 3 was different from 2 (e.g., change in what traffic was picked up for what reasons). Again, instead of improving on the series Sid Meyer decided to do something that was graphically nice but where the gameplay was behind what the original RT and RT Deluxe had.
Well, the news today is that MS did buy the Minecraft parent company, so now perhaps your worst fears have been realized or there is some new life in Redmond. Wait and see.
Quote from: A Nonny Moose on September 15, 2014, 12:12:39 PM
Well, the news today is that MS did buy the Minecraft parent company, so now perhaps your worst fears have been realized or there is some new life in Redmond. Wait and see.
Facebook bought Oculus Rift and the world didn't end so maybe Satya Nadella has a vision for MS that just might be good.
I would refrain from enumerating any feathered progeny before the incubation period is completed. Microsoft has a lot of inertia.
Interesting article here:
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/gaming-notch-microsoft-minecraft-acquisition,27677.html
Apparently, Microsoft has been working with Mojang since 2012.
Too much heat, so get out of the hitchin'.
I hope Banished mod kit makes it possible for full conversions like Luke mentioned months ago. I guess depending on how deep we can go, some futuristic mods would bring in more players. It always amazes me how creative people are all over the world when given the tools. It says a lot.
If you can take the modding community at Simtropolis as an example, the mod kit will extend the life of this game far into the future.
Quote from: A Nonny Moose on September 23, 2014, 05:44:23 AM
If you can take the modding community at Simtropolis as an example, the mod kit will extend the life of this game far into the future.
Definitely, as long as modders are able to put their creativity in the game. It's the same with Civilizatoin IV (I did not like the direction 5 took). The game is actually pretty darn old by now, but the Civ IV community is still vibrant to this very day. Of course it helps that the stock game is bloody good too, with so much complexity, but mods help a lot.
Who knows; maybe in a year's time there will be a futuristic mod where the bannies are robots or something :D
I was thinking of something more primitive. Take a look at my Fan Fiction thread and you'll see how I am thinking in that regard.
The bannies have far too many resources and seem rather unresourceful in themselves.
Quote from: A Nonny Moose on September 24, 2014, 11:02:13 AM
The bannies have far too many resources and seem rather unresourceful in themselves.
I find that my little minions in all of my favorite games have a serious stupid streak at times: Sims who can't find the quickest way to work, Civilization units who trespass on city-states and Bannies who drop what they are carrying to do something unimportant are just the examples that come quickly to mind. I've always assumed that those are examples of how hard it is to program artificial intelligence (with the emphasis on the artificial). It's also why I'm always skeptical about the claims of the various miracles that AI will someday perform. Behind them all is an all-too-human programmer.
Quite right. Artificial Intelligence is an oxymoron. However, there are some damned clever programmers. Try beating GNU Chess. It plays around Candidate Master level.
Programming chess is a matter of working out all possible combinations of moves out to the nth move, with a fixed goal in mind. It is much easier than programming a "living" creature with multiple goals and diverse interactions.
Yes, and it only has to do a regular parse of rather rigid, simple rules. An AI system using stochastic methods is much more complex, and as the universe of discourse grows it becomes pretty much a processors devouring effort. The basic problem is that a home PC will run out of processor(s) cycles and the response time will become very bad.
Banished is one of those programs that will eventually hit the knee of the exponential hyperbola of the response graph and start to lag seriously. Only more or faster hardware can help this. Meanwhile, let us make our towns and villages while we may.