Albeit my previous thread had a good point it apparently flew over the heads of people. So in deciding whether I should buy the game I'm wondering how specifically people play it over long periods of time. After your first successful town what do you find the point to be? Is every subsequent town or village about a challenge? How many challenges are there, and don't be philosophical please? What are some examples of challenges? Why are they worthwhile?
What do you like about the game so much? Can't one town include all its content?
PS
Is my problem that I think Civilization is a waste of money?
This was all explained in your first thread (now locked). Go back and read it again, this time for comprehension, rather than just to see how many people you can insult.
If you truly are interested, your answers are there. If you are just trolling, your response will make that clear.
In trying to come up with an answer, I've found that I really can't pin down what I like about the game -- I just like playing it. To me, it's relaxing. There's no pressure about whether the next town over is sending troops your way. I also like the planning needed to develop a successful town -- resources have to be kept balanced, you need to control population growth rate, etc...
As far as replayability, I do tend to set goals for myself (is this what you mean by 'challenges'?). At least for the Steam version, there are Achievements you can work toward, there are forum challenges here from time to time where you get to see how others are approaching the same goal, and you can decide what kind of town you want and work toward it: trade-based, totally isolated and self-sufficient, no mines/quarries allowed, and so on. This flexibility is what keeps me interested.
It might help if you'd say a little more about what types of games you do like to play, and/or why you think Civilization is a waste of money.
I find Civilization a waste of money for the same reason- I find it to lack depth for playing it many times. Most things remain the same, even though there are a few different ways of winning, which doesn't justify the cost for me, and some differences between civilizations. It really is like a board game. I don't find enough value in the little things to go through the same experience.
How far can you carry the "trade-based, totally isolated and self-sufficient, no mines/quarries allowed, etc." list? That's one of the things, the three items you specified aren't accidental.
Funnily enough one franchise that keeps me engaged is Heroes of Might and Magic, but I don't really play beyond the campaigns and some of the single player maps. Enjoy it though.
I am very much afraid that this is one of those games that, after you can successfully make a hard level village live permanently will lose its attraction. It might be saved by the mod kit, which remains to be seen.
I've been playing SimCity 4 Deluxe for 12 years now, and recently reacquired the digital download version because my play disk wore out.
Simulation games are a matter of preference, and these games require something that is not present in the youth of today: patience.
So then we again arrive at the mod kit. How much can the mod kit do? How much do you foresee it accomplishing?
Quote from: snapster on October 19, 2014, 08:06:10 AM
How far can you carry the "trade-based, totally isolated and self-sufficient, no mines/quarries allowed, etc." list? That's one of the things, the three items you specified aren't accidental.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'accidental', since nothing in a computer game is truly accidental. Starting with three I mentioned, these are some of the goals I've set over many games, either personally or because of forum challenges:
- trade-based
- isolated and self-sufficient
- no mines/quarries
- no meat (ie, vegetarian diet only)
- large population (definitely not something I'm good at doing)
- maintaining a minimum health/happiness level (not as easy as it sounds)
- attaining the Achievements (at least in the Steam version)
- ...
Each of my games with some of these different goals has developed differently. The list is limited only by the imagination you can put into it.
Quote from: snapster on October 19, 2014, 08:06:10 AM
Funnily enough one franchise that keeps me engaged is Heroes of Might and Magic ...
Not familiar with that one. How would you characterize it -- role-playing, sandbox, etc... ?
Quote from: snapster on October 19, 2014, 08:46:50 AM
So then we again arrive at the mod kit. How much can the mod kit do? How much do you foresee it accomplishing?
I'm not really the best person to comment on the mod kit, having really just started using it myself. My take, though, is that not only can you change data values used by the game to modify how things are balanced, but you can also add new buildings, animals, resources and so on. Several folks here have put out mods that introduce new buildings to the game along with new production chains for producing goods of benefit to the town. These mods definitely add a new twist to the game, although they aren't able to change the fundamental game play. I would suggest that you look through the Mods Discussion area to see what's been done and is in development.
How much can buildings be made to do in relation to people? For instance, I'd imagine a cemetery visit increases a person's happiness. :) Can new buildings have such effects? Then could there be a university that converts a person into a scholar?
Can new sources of adversity be worked into the game? What sources of adversity are currently in the game?
Disasters like fires and tornadoes (these can be turned off), maybe a dozen types of epidemic (I had a town lose 1100, or 20%, to smallpox), reduction of individuals' happiness (caused by proximity to quarries and mines). Late frost in spring or early frost in autumn can ruin that year's harvest.
You can add new diseases, make them more or less contagious and/or deadly. You can have new kinds of buildings increase or decrease happiness.
Guys who are less happy do less work than guys who are 100% happy.
You could make trading less profitable, or make the traders bring less stuff. You could make it harder to grow food by making it more susceptible to heat or cold.
New buildings can have any of the effects of the existing buildings, in combinations. We cannot create new effects.
New crops and new animals can create new foods of the same types as the existing foods, but we cannot create new types. Those types are Vegetables, Fruits, Grains, and Proteins. We cannot create Dairy, or Baked Goods, or any other type than the four types already in the game.
We can create new types of alcoholic beverages, but they all have the same effect on the populace. One barrel of apple brandy is not more potent than one barrel of hard cider. It appears as if they all make "Ale" at the Trading Post, but I think that is my mistake. I overlooked an occurrence of the description string.
The game is not intended to have adversity other than hard conditions, bad planning, and bad luck. We can add more, and more potent, diseases. We can increase the numbers of the nomads that appear on a regular basis. We can make the weather worse and the terrain less usable. We cannot add invading armies or packs of ravening wolves, because the game has no combat mechanism.
How much of this can be done somehow? At larger population densities or even just at higher population the chance of disease outbreaks increases. You need university research for mitigation and prevention. Universities occupy some people as scholars/researchers who contribute to a pool of knowledge which comes into effect.
Have you considered engaging the game developer to allow for more possibilities if not to do them himself, at an extra cost for his labor as well? It seems to me there is exploitable potential in this game that should be taken seriously. Why would he be impervious to persuasion to do more work on Banished given how much depth it could have or how much it could be improved by? He can well be more of an enabler than a creator if he so wishes, which involves conceiving of things (meaning he'd have to work with the community). Why would he so want to move away from Banished if the players have identified opportunity? He has said he didn't even consider making the game modable yet he did that.
Here's another thought. The game could have a change from an agrarian society to a more industrial society, artisan society, etc. At a certain point happiness will decline in an agrarian society. Maybe people will start to discover other things and the more industrious, ambitious, or creative would become restless with food levels being adequate, willfully becoming less productive, etc. (so [scripted] events communicated to the player will need to be enabled) Through research agricultural productivity would increase to support higher populations but the town will stagnate unless people are given an outlet. And there could be subsequent changes in a similar fashion. Just a thought.
Moders or whatever they are, the community in a way, will be the creative force behind many directions a single game could go in but the framework for this to happen needs to be provided by the developer himself. There could be many sorts of different things done, whether it's changing societies, one society, one type of town, etc. Then we could really start talking about the imagination limiting possibilities.
I find the possibilities exciting and surprisingly doable even though I may hardly know what I'm talking about. Others need to share in the excitement though and most importantly a developer would need to evaluate things and decide whether he himself would like to participate in creating a game filled with possibilities, if this is indeed possible to begin with. In a way modders would be creating game after game.
Here's perhaps an illustration. What would you, as actual modders, like to do specifically? What do you see it leading to? Can you evaluate how difficult it would be for the developer to accommodate your desires? Big things and little things work. Indeed, the collective wealth of knowledge and ideas I think would amount to something impressive offering much to play. The game itself I envision becoming more of a vehicle for many games than be one traditional game. Maybe 10:30 should be my new bedtime though?
By the way, the basic idea is that on a fundamental level many different things can be accomplished even without fighting. Consider the changing societies example. The change is driven by simpler, doable things.
I gave up on 10:30 bedtime when I started playing this game. Normally up past midnight these days. ;) But I'm knocking off now for tonight.
You strike me as someone who can play many things for much longer and better than me. But you aren't very ambitious and I would say you set a low standard. As much as you might make of this game and as good as you might be at it what you'll do is keep playing it until it dies, and then perhaps play it some more. With all due respect, I consider your username apt. You might be a decent modder though, and that side of you is what I'm more interested about. Surely you've got some ideas?
I'm not a modder, just a plodder.
They say you're a good one though. 8)
Yeah, I can plod better than anyone. I leave the creative stuff up to the creative folks. I'm a technician not an artist.
Are you exacting in how you play the game? How much do you plan ahead of time? Do you even sit planning much of a game out before playing it? How much needs to go different in a game for you to find it worthwhile in comparison to another game/town of Banished?
I don't. I have a few "rules of thumb" like: Shelter first, warmth next, food next on starting a new town. If an agricultural situation, one large field for each 10 souls in the game. And so on.
Quote from: snapster on October 19, 2014, 08:26:18 PM
Are you exacting in how you play the game? How much do you plan ahead of time? Do you even sit planning much of a game out before playing it? How much needs to go different in a game for you to find it worthwhile in comparison to another game/town of Banished?
Planning varies, depending on what my goals are. In my current town I'm not doing much planning at all, as I am just for the first time experimenting with a variety of mods. Since I don't know what to expect from them, I'm just feeling my way around.
If you really are interested, I'm blogging my current town here: http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=567.0
If you want to see what my planning looks like, my previous town was far more goal oriented, it is documented here: http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=327.0 Pages 3-6 can give you an idea of the kind of planning that I often do.
@snapster You have so many questions, now I have one for you. Have you ever played this game? Do you even own it? If as I suspect the answer to these questions is "no," why are you so interested? And why don't you just try the game yourself? Asking questions like this is a bit like someone who has never had sex, asking people who do it every day what it is they find interesting about it and why they aren't doing more to make it better. ;)
Ok folks...
Look, some people are going to want to learn everything they can before they buy the game and try to play it. Money is limited for most people when it comes to buying games and other hobby items.
I totally understand getting frustrated with people who want you to explain in detail games they haven't played but unless these new members are attacking you personally or pushing buttons, then let's find a way to provide your perspective if you care to, discuss the esthetics and the intangibles with those who want to think about the game rather than play, and be helpful to them too.
@snapster please try to understand those who prefer to play to learn versus talking about it first. Everyone else, join in the discussion or don't, but try to see
@snapster 's desire to mentally walk through the game and the mods before making a commitment.
We want a good and helpful forum that people can come to knowing there won't be the verbal sparring and abuse that other forums seen to get overrun with.
I see both sides and I want both sides to enjoy the forum. Sound good? :) Thank you!
Here's an interesting discussion of what could perhaps be done currently:
http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=567.45
One thing that stumps me is if there would be enough constant adversity for rising demands on the player to create a real challenge.
That could be your cue to fire up a game ;)
I'll be playing it.
I think that the lack of objective is both a default and a quality.
It is a default because indeed you never know when you "win". Is it when you stabilize all productions? When you reach a certain population? When you filled 100% of the map?
It is a quality because the game will not be stopped by any given objective, even if you really enjoy your village. I remember for instance playing AOE2, sometimes I would let the enemy survive way longer than necessary just because I wanted to fully develop my town before finishing the game.
It is not easy to set objectives in Banished, but i would appreciate something like: the neighbour country recognizing you as a country/free city based on a mix of indicators (X years of reserve in food/clothes..., population x% educated and over x citizens, production of all kind of food... any other indicator that might be relevant).
This could be an objective to reach in any city, and the difficulty of this recognition could be chosen depending on whether one wants to spend 5 or 50 hours on his new city.
This would not end the game but would be displayed whenever the city reaches the required level of development. It would create a new motivation when you want to start a new game: instead of just thinking "I will start a village and see where it goes" one would be able to think "I will try to reach this objective in less than 50 years".
Lack of objective isn't a problem for many people. Banished, like SimCity 4, has only one final objective which is to avoid losing.
You can lose in Banished quite easily in early months by simply having all your people dying out on you. In SC4, being budget driven, you can go bankrupt.
Objectless or open-ended games with custom content by the community is what makes games like this live forever.
There is still the question of why the game is being played, which some of you don't really answer. There is also little argument to be had over objectives increasing the appeal of Banished. The two ways of playing actually do not strike me as mutually exclusive as you can use the content for reaching an objective or end-game to play around with (right? it would literally be just more content; are the links the issue?), let alone when we consider that mods are separate. Then there are the sort of quantity objectives brought up by Coug_r that really do not conflict with open-ended playing in any way, except that they exist and maybe that's what some people have issues with.
@snapster -- With all due respect, you have been told by several people 'why' they play the game. In some cases, there are specific answers to the question, for others it's not been possible to pin down why the game is appealing (I'm one of these).
For many people, there is an appeal to Banished in the vanilla version, and the mods that are now possible can only increase that. In this sense, I wouldn't consider the mods that are being developed to be 'separate' from the game -- they are extensions that you can choose to use, or choose not to use.
For myself, I enjoy the playing of the game, not just being able to say I reached some 'end-point' objective.
Which is why I plugged the word "really" in there. Put yourself in my position and try to interpret what you're writing. It ain't eaasyy, to bee, me.
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 11:41:36 AM
Which is why I plugged the word "really" in there. Put yourself in my position and try to interpret what you're writing. It ain't eaasyy, to bee, me.
We are really saying what we really mean.
The game appeals to me because it is peaceful, because I am entertained by the passing of the seasons, because I like laying out towns, and now also because I can fiddle with the innards to some degree.
It is like Dwarf Fortress without any warfare, which I turn off anyway when I play that game, and with graphics. Dwarf Fortress has much more flexibility. Perhaps you should have a look at that game. It is completely free. You don't even have to register anywhere to obtain it. I would personally stick to the slightly older version for now, but that is up to you if you should decide to try it.
http://bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html
There is a large following at the forum.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/
Well, maybe I wasn't completely clear as to why I play games like this one:
- I am a rather non-violent person. I don't care one bit for blood and guts games.
- I am retired. I need games to use up all this time I have on my hands.
- I am partially disabled, so I can't go play in the traffic any more.
- I live alone in a secured senior's apartment building. Most of the others around here are LOLs waiting for God. Not much to talk about for a retired professor of computer science.
Quote from: A Nonny Moose on October 22, 2014, 12:31:38 PM
- I am retired. I need games to use up all this time I have on my hands.
I'm 25 but we come at it from the same angle, for now at least. :) :( Been a long while.
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 11:41:36 AM
Which is why I plugged the word "really" in there. Put yourself in my position and try to interpret what you're writing. It ain't eaasyy, to bee, me.
Dude. I have to say, I have tried and tried, but I can't figure out what you are getting at. Can you perhaps rephrase your question, since none of us seem to be getting it?
I do NYT Sunday Xword puzzles every morning while I'm, you know. I do them because I have the time, and I enjoy it. It stimulates my brain.
I play Banished in the evening while I'm sitting here alone at home. I do this because I have the time, and I enjoy it. It stimulates my brain. Also, there's nothing I'd prefer to be doing. Demented and sad, but posting here makes it social (movie reference). That's why. But you say there has to be some "really" why? I don't know what that "really why" could be. Help me! ;)
Until I discovered Banished I was playing a wargame. Against the AI, of course ;) HPS Panzer Campaign Bulge 44. It had me fully-occupied, and had for over a year, and its sister games Smolensk 41, Tobruk 42, Normandy 44, and Market Garden 44 for two years before that. Then I found Banished. It has me fully-occupied, and additionally has the bonus of having this forum.
Gee, even engaging you is interesting, bizarrely enough ;)
...I forgot what the question is and I'm too tired. :)
There seems to be a common thread, rather there is one in some of the fleshier responses given. Why people play pertains to something personal or their lives, not solely or primarily to the game, hasn't been put in those terms. The game is the issue. It needs to have more to do, basically. Don't feel like elaborating but this appears both doable and needed. May not be reflected here outside of the low numbers but it is reflected elsewhere (yesterday I read some of the comment section of an article on the mod kit being released, as an example among others; those people treated the game diminutively and rather dismissively despite compliments here and there, with good reason). This game hardly has a future unless the mod kit turns out to be really something while it might otherwise have a good future. Nothing specific or substantive in this post but there have been other posts. As I play the game I might even come to the opinion that I was just imagining too much about its potential in the first place, whether that be the fault of the developer or have more to do with some more innate/inherent limitation or perhaps with my capacity. The questions have been prodding at exactly what makes the game playable in the long term, which should be an important goal.
The "really" thing referred to the lack of game related content in posts explaining why people play the game over time.
I am impressed by how engaged you are with this game. Makes me wonder what you do again and again, or where you find something new to do.
PS
I forgot to mention there is also the need for meaning. Some point to things, some challenge. Don't take this in isolation and run with it.
No game has a future. New games come out every day. Ten years ago I was fully occupied by a game called War in the Pacific. I played it for 5 years (against actual living opponents!!). Before that I had played an analog (paper map and cardboard counters) version of it on and off for 20 years. I'll probably never play it again. It has been surpassed and supplanted.
I played Age of Empires II for a couple of years. I played Railroad Tycoon 2 for a couple of years. I played the Sid Meyers Civilization thing for a year or so. Games come and go. Why would you expect longevity from this game, when no game ever (save chess, checkers, backgammon, Candyland....) has ever endured?
Games fill niches mostly. This one's doing it for me now. What's next? Not looking. But there inevitably will be something.
You must know this is a really bad response. ;D Too late at night?
There you go again. ;) If you dislike a response, you must give some hint why.
"All games have no future, but some games have more future than others." - wayward communist snapster
- wayward communist snapster means absolutely nothing to me, I'm sorry. You must consider your audience of clueless boomers.
What, all are equal but some are more equal than others? How is this relevant?
You'd figure that would've been perfect for boomers. :D
The longevity or life of games varies. Better games, more appealing games, or more gratifying games over time for whatever reason you'd imagine have longer futures. What this also means is that you stand to gain more from the game as well. No need to be so... what's the word about making horses look just straight on? You've got your little perspective and you just run with it. Be more reflective. Who knows, might make you a lot happier.
At some point you don't want to work so hard. Something for you to look forward to. :-\
And part of what I mean by working so hard is, I can't figure out WTF your last post means. English MF'r, do you speak it? ;)
I'm at a loss what is so cryptic. You just can't make an all games have no future argument.
http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=567.msg9557#msg9557
From here perhaps another interesting and/or significant discussion.
Yah, maybe tomorrow. My few surviving brain cells need a break ;)
Thanks, I am enjoying this, I think? ;)
Oh, I wanted to ask, are you actually building a town? What year are you on? Having any fun? Cause if not....why really are you playing? ;)
I'm near the first winter on hard (first snow late autumn). Down one lane dirt road I have five houses, the storage site for wood, stone, and iron, a barn, a woodcutter or whatever for firewood, maybe regrettably a queued blacksmith, and at the end a fishing place. Two bridges have been queued that would connect a gathering hut and a forester to the settlement, but they'll have to wait and probably won't be helpful factors during the winter, if construction on them even begins then.
Glad you are playing. Don't start construction (even unpausing for a second) of a structure on the far side of an unbridged river; death marches will result. Putting down footprints is okay, but paused.
So wait, maybe this is it; we'll like the game more and it will have more longeviy if it is more challenging?
@snapster : 25? I'm 77, so I think there is a two generation gap between us at least.
Quote from: A Nonny Moose on October 22, 2014, 09:35:06 PM
@snapster : 25? I'm 77, so I think there is a two generation gap between us at least.
And I'm 58, halfway between, sorta kinda.
Interesting demographic spread, eh?
Rarely encountered probably?
Quote from: irrelevant on October 22, 2014, 09:32:37 PMPutting down footprints is okay, but paused.
How do you put down a footprint but pause development?
Quote from: irrelevant on October 22, 2014, 09:32:37 PMSo wait, maybe this is it; we'll like the game more and it will have more longeviy if it is more challenging?
In part, yes. Overcoming challenges gives meaning and is rewarding. At the least challenge needs to be incorporated. More content/depth is also needed.
This is an interesting illustration- http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=541.msg9576#msg9576 .
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 09:47:47 PM
Rarely encountered probably?
Probably
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 09:47:47 PMHow do you put down a footprint but pause development?
Click the pause button in the lower right corner of the building's panel. Tiny button with a vertical "=" on it.
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 09:47:47 PMThis is an interesting illustration- http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=541.msg9576#msg9576 .
Yes, I see your point. Now that you've finally made it ;)
There's a number of things could be done, mostly revolving around trade, which is OP.
- make the boats come less often
- put in a longer delay for increasing the quantities they bring (increases now at pop 75 and 150, change to 150/300 or 250/500)
- halve the TV of firewood and ale
- increase the premium charged by merchants for ordered goods from 25% to 50%, rounded up
- coming up with others wouldn't be hard
Is the building panel accessed by clicking on the blueprint?
Can mods do the things you're suggesting? They should be able to. Might be a good idea to contact one of them modders you know.
@snapster - Though my post that you linked to seems to make your point, it really doesn't. You have to consider two things:
-- A Mountain Man map being boring is an unusual thing - it actually means I did something
right, not that something is lacking. Can you see that distinction? Things being quiet enough to basically just wait it out is my
reward for doing things properly so far. If everything suddenly went to hell with that town, I would not be happy about it, it would not be "better" in some way for me.
That map is specifically to try to get the achievement. I wouldn't be playing that map otherwise. The part of the game I enjoy most is town planning, and with a small map like that one, that part of things is over pretty quickly.
-- The other reason I got bored with it is because there are many new mods I want to try out, and I can't use them on a town that I'm trying to get an achievement with. So I'm drawn to starting a new town instead of playing that one.
Though you'd have no way to know this, using me as an example of "challenge = better" is just not accurate when it comes to Banished. I like a decent balance, but you won't find me installing mods that make things harder. I run a few mods on most of my towns that some would consider cheats. I find my own balance, and choose my own experience. That's why I love moddable games. I'm not restricted to someone else's idea of what a game should be - I can customize it to something that suits me, personally.
(In the case of Banished, I loved it before mods, but it's not like I can rewind my perspective now that there
are mods.)
Would planning be enjoyable if there was no prospect of failure or adversity? Would it be enjoyable if many of the [new] buildings don't serve a meaningful function aside from providing nominal variety?
Mods can accommodate you as well as others. I apologize for using you as an example. You also might find yourself installing different mods in the future.
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 10:28:27 AM
Would planning be enjoyable if there was no prospect of failure or adversity? Would it be enjoyable if many of the [new] buildings don't serve a meaningful function aside from providing nominal variety?
To the first question - sometimes, yes. Hopefully I can explain that. Sometimes, it's about "can I do the town this way and make it work?" - in that case, it is about planning and designing with the goal of maintaining a functional town. There is a "works or doesn't work" component. But other times, it's nothing more than "how pretty can I make the town square?" - there isn't really a failure component there, as I'm probably not doing things that could conflict with overall town functioning or efficiency. In that case, "success" is really only "prettier than last time", there's no case for failing, per se.
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 10:28:27 AMMods can accommodate you as well as others. I apologize for using you as an example. You also might find yourself installing different mods in the future.
It's fine - as I said, you would have no way of knowing any of that because I don't think I've ever spelled it out for anyone before. I do agree that mods can, and should, accommodate all sorts of players, as I stated in my post in the other thread. And I will always be trying new / different mods, no doubt. As it is now, every town I use mods in has a slightly different set of mods from the other towns I've done. I love mods. :)
I think I've gotten a bit sensitive to the "challenge = better" line of thinking because it isn't universally true, but in so many gaming communities (and on Steam), I've seen people getting criticized for using certain mods, or playing games a certain way or even playing with a certain difficulty level. With single player games, there's really no justification for "you have to play the game this way or you're doing it wrong". (I'm not talking about when someone installs cheat mods and then complains the game is too easy - that's a whole different thing.)
I'm not saying you've done this, because I don't think you have, it's just something that I've gotten sensitive to and I sometimes respond accordingly.
Yea, I guess accommodation is in fact important. There are people who will enjoy playing with new buildings that only cement or not change their general surpluses, simply adding non-functional variety in strict game terms. Chains, trees, and **** might help here too. Survival or overcoming certain challenges may be beside the point entirely. Just about building different things in different ways, which I can have trouble wrapping my head around.
At least for me, these were the stages of game play in Banished and why I continue to play:
1. Survive
Learning to play the game and understanding its rules well enough to get past:
- The first winter
- the first die off
- the first large nomad acceptance
- the first epidemic
- the sudden threats like tool shortage or food shortage
2. Skills
Perfecting your understanding of game play so you can push the game to its limits
- See the big challenges we have played here on this forum
3. Enjoyment
Playing the game to distract your mind for a period of time and enjoy the ability to see success /accomplishment / confirmation of your understanding of the game.
- Tweaking your previous efforts, playing what ifs, adjusting look and feel for greater satisfaction, and beautifying your creations.
I may have reached a point, 40 hours in, where I'm rinsing and repeating, except I might not even be rinsing. I basically have main clusters around markets comprised of houses, farms, orchards, pastures, and all the buildings necessary like a tailor, blacksmith, school, tavern, etc. along with a quarry and mines. Outside there are the gatherers, foresters, herbalists, and hunters. Where I find wide open areas I'll essentially repeat the main clusters with at least one outside cluster nearby. There are some areas where this can't really be done and who knows what I'll do there, but it doesn't really matter.
And that's it.
You may well have reached the point where you want to explore some of the custom content that is available. See the mod information below.
Quote from: snapster on October 28, 2014, 02:26:12 PM
I may have reached a point, 40 hours in, where I'm rinsing and repeating, except I might not even be rinsing. I basically have main clusters around markets comprised of houses, farms, orchards, pastures, and all the buildings necessary like a tailor, blacksmith, school, tavern, etc. along with a quarry and mines. Outside there are the gatherers, foresters, herbalists, and hunters. Where I find wide open areas I'll essentially repeat the main clusters with at least one outside cluster nearby. There are some areas where this can't really be done and who knows what I'll do there, but it doesn't really matter.
And that's it.
That's it, except for the dynamics involved in growing your village from 40 people to 400 to 1200. Diseases, disasters, balancing food and fuel, accepting nomads and incorporating them successfully are added challenges that you can take on should you choose to push on past being satisfied with 40 people and a dozen buildings.
Sure, you think you know how it's played and it's all just repetition but you would be surprised to find out your strategies might not be complete when things get busy.
That first plateau of success is where many leave the game and claim it's boring and simple and too easy. They never challenged themselves and their claims ring hollow here where many of us have achieved far greater and have actually played the game to its fullest.
I'm at nearly 400. I've already accepted nomads twice. I have a hospital in each of my three main clusters along with wells that I think are well positioned. If a tornado doesn't somehow roll through all three clusters I think it won't be so disastrous either. They appear to be self-sufficient. I also have more than a dozen buildings and the accumulation of further buildings will be little more than repetitive, as stated. Balancing food and fuel with further housing also doesn't appear to be too much of an issue as it's a matter of smaller additions along with repeating a "design" that already appears balanced.
Quote from: solarscreen on October 29, 2014, 04:57:10 AMThat first plateau of success is where many leave the game and claim it's boring and simple and too easy. They never challenged themselves and their claims ring hollow here where many of us have achieved far greater and have actually played the game to its fullest.
Anything else you'd like to back this up with? I can take my town to 1400. Nothing better to do and that colonial charter mod, which appears to be the best hope, might be as hollow as your post.
Thank you, by the way, for giving me a further reason to play. What a reason. :D
Quote from: snapster on October 29, 2014, 07:40:31 AM
I'm at nearly 400. I've already accepted nomads twice. I have a hospital in each of my three main clusters along with wells that I think are well positioned. If a tornado doesn't somehow roll through all three clusters I think it won't be so disastrous either. They appear to be self-sufficient. I also have more than a dozen buildings and the accumulation of further buildings will be little more than repetitive, as stated. Balancing food and fuel with further housing also doesn't appear to be too much of an issue as it's a matter of smaller additions along with repeating a "design" that already appears balanced.
Quote from: solarscreen on October 29, 2014, 04:57:10 AMThat first plateau of success is where many leave the game and claim it's boring and simple and too easy. They never challenged themselves and their claims ring hollow here where many of us have achieved far greater and have actually played the game to its fullest.
Anything else you'd like to back this up with? I can take my town to 1400. Nothing better to do and that colonial charter mod, which appears to be the best hope, might be as hollow as your post.
Thank you, by the way, for giving me a further reason to play. What a reason. :D
Looking forward to seeing screencaps and a historical recap of your 1400 pop town when you achieve that!
All of us here that are in the 1,000 plus club did it with no mods and before Luke fixed the so called starvation spiral bug.
:)
Speaking of starvation spirals, I just experienced it. Took some time after I really overextended in accepting a nomad group of 50+ without much of any surpluses although with further development coming figuring that some of them would merely die off and sooner or later a balance would be reached. Ultimately I would just absorb some of their number. At first things weren't too bad and at a point even seemed to stabilize, but after around three years I think, despite my new farming capacity, a chain reaction occurred that didn't seem to be slowing down. I think my last save was before accepting the nomad group and I will be reverting to it.
And all this, by the way, with some food available.
I'm obviously doing it with no mods that make the game easier too.
50 nomads means you have to have housing for them and about 6000 food units per year surplus for some considerable time before they become productive. It is a big step and can easily lead you down the primrose path to perdition.
Wouldn't it be nice if you could just accept some of them.
Actually they can survive indefinitely without housing; they eat out of barns, and warm up in other peoples' doorways. The housing problem always gets solved, even if you never build another house, eventually houses empty out through deaths, and the homeless are first in line. But food, they gotta have, and coats, and tools.
Seeing the yields for the space taken I'm starting to question irrelevant's opinion of farms. For maximum sized farms (15x15, 225 tiles) with three farmers (more than one farmer per 120 tiles, which is supposed to work) I'm getting around 1000 food per harvest, although it should be exactly 1575 so I wonder what's going on there. As has been brought up, the space taken is significant. A gatherer's hut brings in 2k or over in food every season, and you can couple it with a hunter's cabin that adds another 800-1000 per season. In reaching 1400 it is starting to seem smart to me to not go away from gatherers and hunters as I have been.
Quote from: snapster on October 29, 2014, 09:55:58 PM
Seeing the yields for the space taken I'm starting to question irrelevant's opinion of farms. For maximum sized farms (15x15, 225 tiles) with three farmers (more than one farmer per 120 tiles, which is supposed to work) I'm getting around 1000 food per harvest, although it should be exactly 1575 so I wonder what's going on there. As has been brought up, the space taken is significant. A gatherer's hut brings in 2k or over in food every season, and you can couple it with a hunter's cabin that adds another 800-1000 per season. In reaching 1400 it is starting to seem smart to me to not go away from gatherers and hunters as I have been.
Don't know how I missed this. Oh wait, yes I do. ;) But this cannot be the final post in this thread, and so for anyone who may stumble into this thread looking for insight:
There are two different considerations for food production. There is food per worker, and there is food per committed tile. In the early going, and even somewhat into the mid-game (where this person still is, or was) food output per person might be the important consideration. But at some point you have more guys than you have jobs for them, and then the limiting factor becomes output of food per square, as there is only so much space available.
Yes, your gatherers' hut can produce 3500 food with 4 guys, but it takes up the space that could produce 10,000-15,000 if it were made into farms.
Quote from: snapster on October 29, 2014, 09:55:58 PMI'm getting around 1000 food per harvest, although it should be exactly 1575 so I wonder what's going on there.
I wonder how far away from your fields your barns and houses are? There's a reason I lay out my farms like I do, in those "neat grids which are pleasing to the eye" (and that is not the reason).
The lower than expected yield might be distance, but I think if the fields were not being completely harvested, I'd think that would have been mentioned. I don't think it was said whether or not the farmers working the field were educated, and if they weren't, that might have affected the yield, too.
@salamander That's true. Either of these factors might have escaped his attention. But he did post a few screenshots, his barns were poorly placed. He couldn't bring himself to put them where they needed to be because of his scorn for my "neat grids."
But you're right, he had accepted a couple groups of nomads and was only 86% educated; that probably was a factor as well.
I don't toot my own horn much, but I will say that anyone who thinks I'm doing food production wrong should be prepared to demonstrate that by doing it better than I do, not by doing it worse. ;)
it could be distance house to field, field to barn, early onset of winter, and do not forget full barn.. walk to the next one might be twice as long.
education of course does play a role too.
Worn out tools (getting replacement), cold (get new coat), hungry (get food), idle (happiness), fire (help fire fighting), ^^ prioritize all could be factors too.
don't forget about field sizes, 15x15 might be highest yield, but 15x8 / 8x15 fields do a lot better per worker.
http://banishedinfo.com/t/Size_calculator is a neat tool. 2 times a 15x8 will definitely be better
@chillzz, lol, yep, that's pretty much everything! :D Farming is so easy, and so hard.
absolutely! planning ahead to placement of multiple barns and surrounding fields with roads is a strategy. learning from 1 game to do it differently in another game.
Getting almost all achievements (97%) wasn't all that hard. just getting the tenure one is dreading.. everthing goes so slow...
now playing with mods that balance things out is a bit better, especially the corn/wheat fields with RedKetchup silo's :D
less space wasted on default barns, but still a challenge
I just got some poorly stated advice previously. It's also questionable if there is indeed an early point at which you would value output per worker, especially considering when it comes to farms it is liable to variability if you try to be very efficient due to weather, more than sheer output of food but whatever.
Quote from: irrelevant on November 12, 2014, 05:29:50 PMYes, your gatherers' hut can produce 3500 food with 4 guys, but it takes up the space that could produce 10,000-15,000 if it were made into farms.
This is significant. I guess I would take it on faith that the 10k-15k figure is correct for the same area. What doesn't appear factored in here is that the output of huts is per season rather than per year.
As for my progress, my first game ended at 400 citizens as I was careless. I quickly got back up to 500+ citizens on hard, harsh, and disasters on. One of the main challenges the game offers, at least to the conscientious gamer, is keeping up with the multiplying population, which speeds the game up and may also transform the experience to something less appealing for some. I ultimately failed to see a point to going further (this time I was more or less stable even though I had to build an entire market surrounded by farms along with three woodcutters, which remarkably was not very problematic when it came to distribution), especially surrounding the circumstances of my ban and my impression of this forum echoing what one user wrote to me in a pm about what the rule is when it comes to such forums rather than the exception.
I would be curious to learn how others don't run out of space and how they approach the "late game" to providing sufficient firewood and food, but my verdict on this game overshadows that curiosity. As is well attested to elsewhere, outside of this forum, along with the size and activity of this forum ironically, the game is limited. The posters collected here are more of an oddity. Their perspective is interesting and significant, although you have to make an effort to draw it out of them, but not preponderant in any way. The person who claimed this game is full of possibilities is quite simply a fool. It is also not to be expected of them to push for change. They just play.
Quote from: snapster on November 13, 2014, 06:24:34 AM
I just got some poorly stated advice previously. It's also questionable if there is indeed an early point at which you would value output per worker, especially considering when it comes to farms it is liable to variability if you try to be very efficient due to weather, more than sheer output of food but whatever.
Rather than poorly stated, I would say you just didn't understand and the conversation went off the rails rather than trying to get an understanding.
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I guess I would take it on faith that the 10k-15k figure is correct for the same area. What doesn't appear factored in here is that the output of huts is per season rather than per year.
Doesn't take much faith when some of the most knowledgeable and accomplished players have documented everything for you if you take time to read and look at the screencaps and spreadsheets.
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I ultimately failed to see a point to going further (this time I was more or less stable even though I had to build an entire market surrounded by farms along with three woodcutters, which remarkably was not very problematic when it came to distribution)
This is where you differed from those who like to play the game for what it is and enjoy it. I would move on to something that you enjoy.
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I would be curious to learn how others don't run out of space and how they approach the "late game" to providing sufficient firewood and food, but my verdict on this game overshadows that curiosity.
It has been explained and well documented in the challenges and other posts here on the forum. Some have even tried to explain it all again in response to your questions. I think you would like to understand but really don't care as you have lost interest in this game.
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As is well attested to elsewhere, outside of this forum, along with the size and activity of this forum ironically, the game is limited. The posters collected here are more of an oddity.
Some people have found it is not the game they thought it was a many cannot get past the first or second winter. The only thing odd here is that we concentrate on understanding, helping, and not offending so that as many can enjoy as possible. Oh, and having the best players in the game all on this forum could be considered odd!
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Their perspective is interesting and significant, although you have to make an effort to draw it out of them, but not preponderant in any way.
No drawing necessary just patience, practice, and much reading all the good info already documented here,
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The person who claimed this game is full of possibilities is quite simply a fool. It is also not to be expected of them to push for change. They just play.
This is why you were put on a time-out for the last week.
You are entitled to your perspective but personal attacks and name calling is not what we agreed to on this forum and quite frankly accomplishes nothing of value anywhere it is used. As for pushing for change, Luke is over on his forum, ShiningRockSoftware.com, and you are welcome to push all you want. If you read the posts here you will see that we have all had our attempts made to converse with the author about things and we ultimately respect his wish to do as he pleases.
You are certainly welcome to participate here but if this latest post after the break is an indication of your tone towards the forum and its members, I would ask you to please move on to a place where you feel at home with like minded members.
I also wonder whether an apparently proficient gamer like irrelevant exploits the fact that a non-growing town is sustainable. Being able to control the pace of this game, in light of my greater experience now, strikes me as a very big deal. I even wonder, considering how houses are stocked with food and firewood, whether keeping up with population growth after a certain point is even possible. The third thing that makes me wonder is how very large populations are fit on a map. Even reaching 1400 came to seem ambitious to me on a large valley map. Not quite sure what I'd be doing so wrong.
Quote from: snapster on November 13, 2014, 06:24:34 AM
One of the main challenges the game offers, at least to the conscientious gamer, is keeping up with the multiplying population, which speeds the game up and may also transform the experience to something less appealing for some.
You're right, that is an on-going challenge in the game as the town grows. How you handle it can take several forms, depending on your preferences for playing the game.
Quote from: snapster on November 13, 2014, 06:24:34 AM
I would be curious to learn how others don't run out of space and how they approach the "late game" to providing sufficient firewood and food...
Well, you can either cut more firewood and grow more food to keep up with the demand -- but as you say, there's a limit to the space you have for continuing to do that -- or you might possibly turn to trading to bring in what you need, using high-value goods to purchase what you're short of.
Quote from: snapster on November 13, 2014, 06:24:34 AM
The person who claimed this game is full of possibilities is quite simply a fool...They just play.
Quite likely that would be me, although I think that opinion may be held by others as well. As for 'just playing' ... it is a game after all.
Quote from: snapster on November 13, 2014, 06:52:46 AM
I also wonder whether an apparently proficient gamer like irrelevant exploits the fact that a non-growing town is sustainable. Being able to control the pace of this game, in light of my greater experience now, strikes me as a very big deal. I even wonder, considering how houses are stocked with food and firewood, whether keeping up with population growth after a certain point is even possible. The third thing that makes me wonder is how very large populations are fit on a map. Even reaching 1400 came to seem ambitious to me on a large valley map. Not quite sure what I'd be doing so wrong.
Have a look at the Market Circle Challenge thread where we were able to put 1,000 people inside the market circle radius. You find some value in the posts and screencaps there.
http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=342.0
Quote from: snapster on November 13, 2014, 06:52:46 AM
I also wonder whether an apparently proficient gamer like irrelevant exploits the fact that a non-growing town is sustainable. Being able to control the pace of this game, in light of my greater experience now, strikes me as a very big deal. I even wonder, considering how houses are stocked with food and firewood, whether keeping up with population growth after a certain point is even possible. The third thing that makes me wonder is how very large populations are fit on a map. Even reaching 1400 came to seem ambitious to me on a large valley map. Not quite sure what I'd be doing so wrong.
I would also look at the Ultimate Challenge thread where 5,000 and 6,000 people fit on the game map.
http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=321.0
Quote from: solarscreen on November 13, 2014, 06:47:36 AM
Quote from: snapster on November 13, 2014, 06:24:34 AM
I just got some poorly stated advice previously. It's also questionable if there is indeed an early point at which you would value output per worker, especially considering when it comes to farms it is liable to variability if you try to be very efficient due to weather, more than sheer output of food but whatever.
Rather than poorly stated, I would say you just didn't understand and the conversation went off the rails rather than trying to get an understanding.
I would say you don't even really know what is being referred to. Talk about going off the rails.
Quote from: solarscreen on November 13, 2014, 06:47:36 AM
Quote
I would be curious to learn how others don't run out of space and how they approach the "late game" to providing sufficient firewood and food, but my verdict on this game overshadows that curiosity.
It has been explained and well documented in the challenges and other posts here on the forum. Some have even tried to explain it all again in response to your questions. I think you would like to understand but really don't care as you have lost interest in this game.
This is false. You aren't thinking specifically enough.
Quote from: solarscreen on November 13, 2014, 06:47:36 AM
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As is well attested to elsewhere, outside of this forum, along with the size and activity of this forum ironically, the game is limited. The posters collected here are more of an oddity.
Some people have found it is not the game they thought it was a many cannot get past the first or second winter. The only thing odd here is that we concentrate on understanding, helping, and not offending so that as many can enjoy as possible. Oh, and having the best players in the game all on this forum could be considered odd!
Empty. The discussion here obviously isn't about surviving the first or second winter, for instance. Again, you are blinded and miss the point. "Understanding, helping, and not offending" has actually nothing to do with anything.
Stop accusing of me things when you're demonstrably a disconnected poster. Stick to the game you enjoying playing rather than derailing constructive discussions that you don't like the tenor of.
Summarize those threads for me, for Pete's sake. Can you not do that? Can you not see the point to doing it? I try to stay concise.
Isn't putting 1k people within the range of a market artificial and distorted? It's the goal of a challenge, not a model. That area obviously is anything but self-sufficient.
http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=321.msg4366#msg4366
:)
And the 0 foresters too, wow!! It's like you guys are playing with toys. Ingenious, I guess.
By the way, do they use only markets? I'm looking at one of irrelevant's screenshots and am wondering. ...Hmmm, I see them now. So no foresters, no gatherers. How did they make that work? I love the artificiality of it, but it can be argued it is valid. Specialization through trade.
Are cemeteries a thing? Really?
...Wait a second, are the map seeds or whatever they are especially selected for the challenge?
http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=321.msg7968#msg7968
There's irrelevant's screenshot. :)
Quote from: snapster on November 13, 2014, 07:00:01 AM
Stop accusing of me things when you're demonstrably a disconnected poster. Stick to the game you enjoying playing rather than derailing constructive discussions that you don't like the tenor of.
@solarscreen's a disconnected poster ... stop kidding around ... I'm laughing so hard. :)
Quote from: salamander on November 13, 2014, 07:27:23 AM
Quote from: snapster on November 13, 2014, 07:00:01 AM
Stop accusing of me things when you're demonstrably a disconnected poster. Stick to the game you enjoying playing rather than derailing constructive discussions that you don't like the tenor of.
@solarscreen's a disconnected poster ... stop kidding around ... I'm laughing so hard. :)
Hark! What is that I hear barking in the distance. It sounds like ... a really Big Chihuahua!!! :o ;D
Quite mature. Parallels those challenges. You really don't recognize how exceptional you are, and not necessarily in the best of ways? I guess that's why you find so much pride to belonging to this forum and wallow so contently in this game.
I'm done here. I do have one request. Let this thread be. Let passer-bies judge for themselves. Nothing too grave happened here. No RedKetchup wishing me to die, cursing left and right, without anything remotely similar from my side. I was nothing but constructive in that thread, and I got banned but he didn't. And then irrelevant accuses me of antics. :)
You guys are priceless.
Please, let this thread be. I promise not to post on this forum ever again.
You do kind of have a point, which I find kind of admirable. Need people like this in the world too. I just don't have the patience. Enjoy playing.
@snapster I appreciate your final statement in this thread.
You do kind of have a point, which I find kind of admirable. Need people like this in the world too. I just don't have the patience. Enjoy playing.Good luck pushing for the changes you would like to see and ultimately to you finding the game that holds your interest and enjoyment. Let us know if and when you find that game, I'm sure others here would find it enjoyable too.