I'm not sure a thread like this exists and it would be useful.
Can you fish out a lake?
Do trading boats come down the big river only or do they also travel on the seeming creeks or tributaries?
Lake fishing, river fishing, all good. The most important thing is to get as much water in that dock circle as you can. So locations on promontories, on the inside of river bends, where streams feed into rivers, where rivers feed into lakes, etc are the best spots. Streams aren't as good because they are narrow, so less water.
Merchant boats can go up creeks too. The real trick there is finding a spot where the trading post will fit.
So fish are not a depletable resource. I guess the advantage of a big-ass lake is that although only half the circle will have water it will have a lot of water, making it an ideal fishing spot?
You can't fit a trading post on a creek, can you?
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 08:20:57 AM
So fish are not a depletable resource. I guess the advantage of a big-ass lake is that although only half the circle will have water it will have a lot of water, making it an ideal fishing spot?
Many lakes have irregular coastlines, there often are peninsulas that have more water around them, like the one in Reply #3 here: http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=567.0
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 08:20:57 AM
You can't fit a trading post on a creek, can you?
It's hard to find a spot where one will fit. Everything has to be just so. Not possible on every map. You have to hover the TP building image over the creek and move it around until you find a spot where all the red squares have turned green. Depends how bad you want it ;)
You can rotate the image with "R" or "T"
How do you tell what are appropriate ratios in this game? For instance, farm size to citizens?
Check out the size calculator http://banishedinfo.com/t/Size_calculator Good thing to play around with.
Consensus is that a farm with ~120 tiles is most efficient use of land and labor; so, 11x11, 12x10, and 8x15 (my personal favorite) are commonly used sizes. If you get a full harvest from one of these, that is 840 food.
Usually when towns are small, I'll use just one farmer on a farm this size. They may not fully harvest, but usually they will come close.
You need to locate your farm very close to a house (for the farmer) and also to a barn (for storing the food). If not, that could really wreck your harvest.
Also in the early going, consider using a gatherers hut in a forest. They can produce tons of food.
You need to produce at least 100 food per citizen per year. More is better.
What if you want to figure it out on your own? Where can you find the necessary information in-game? And how is a 120-tile farm most efficient? What does that depend on? Why not just have bigger farms if necessary?
Then don't look at the size calculator ;) It is nowhere in-game; in-game is trial and error, and death ;)
Farms grow 7 food per tile. So 120 tiles = 840 food. A farmer can carry 84 food at a time (actually he can carry 100 at a time, but the food is harvested into baskets with 21 food in each one, and a farmer carrying 84 food will not be able to pick up another one). This means ten trips between his field and storage. If the storage barn is right there, that's about the max number of walking he will be able to do between the time harvest begins (ideally when late summer turns to early autumn) and the time the temperature drops to freezing and the crops begin to die in the fields. If storage is farther away, he will spend more time walking compared to the time spent harvesting food, increasing the chance that part of the crop will get frosted. It isn't the end of the world, but cumulative efficiency is the key in this game.
All of this can vary depending on what crop you are growing. Each one has different growth characteristics. Beans are easiest.
You can have bigger farms. Just more stuff dying from frost, unless you put on another farmer. So, two farms, one farmer on each, or one farm with two farmers. It's a valid choice. I feel with two farms you are diffusing the risk of something going wrong.
So if you aren't sticking to the one farmer per 840 food ratio assuming a thing or two you are exposing yourself to risk. Even if the game automatically increases the number of farmers required... how does the game do that? Does it abide by this ratio? Does it put the second worker at 841 or 1680 or some other number?
Does the game tell you the different characteristics of crops?
Can you upgrade dirt roads to stone roads? Or can you build stone roads on top of dirt roads?
Do you need storage barns by buildings like the herbalist place and the hunter's lodge? Can those buildings store their own stuff as well? The gatherer's place is another one. Barns all one size?
Thanks. This discussion, so far, has clarified a problem I've been having with farm size. With a 100% farming community with one fish dock and one gatherer, I've found you need one 15 x 15 crop with 2 (minimum) farmers each for each 10 citizens. This sucks up land at a tremendous rate.
In my next town, I am going to try it with smaller farms and more barns. How do you feel about one barn every two or three farms?
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 09:19:35 AM
So if you aren't sticking to the one farmer per 840 food ratio assuming a thing or two you are exposing yourself to risk. Even if the game automatically increases the number of farmers required... how does the game do that? Does it abide by this ratio? Does it put the second worker at 841 or 1680 or some other number?
The rate at which farmers move and how far they must travel determines how many farmers must be used for a crop field. If the field is larger than the farmer(s) assigned to it can service in one growing season, then some of the crop will be lost. You must set the number of farmers working on a crop field. The game will not do that for you.
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 09:19:35 AM
Does the game tell you the different characteristics of crops?
No. See the thread at this link: http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=353.0
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 09:19:35 AM
Can you upgrade dirt roads to stone roads? Or can you build stone roads on top of dirt roads?
By building stone roads on top of them, and yes.
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 09:28:44 AM
Do you need storage barns by buildings like the herbalist place and the hunter's lodge? Can those buildings store their own stuff as well? The gatherer's place is another one. Barns all one size?
You can place barns near to herbalists, hunter's lodges, and gatherer's places. You don't have to, but it may help. They cannot store their own stuff. Barns in the standard game are all one size.
It's just not the most efficient option per worker (240 tiles versus 225), the land will still be sucked. 1575 food for 10 citizens. If more than 100 food is a good thing for a citizen I guess you can still keep going with 150 food? Do crop characteristics enter the discussion somewhere around here? Maybe the crop has a different yield per tile. Baskets still constant at 21 food per basket?
Another question, do you need a trader to be at or employed by the trading post to accept a merchant? Is it a good idea to transfer traders once the trading post is stocked? Should just one be left?
Quote from: slink on October 22, 2014, 09:53:41 AM
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 09:19:35 AM
Does the game tell you the different characteristics of crops?
No. See the thread at this link: http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=353.0
Jeez. :/ What's the abridged version of this? What are the crop characteristics in the game? Is it all trial and error, observation?
Quote from: slink on October 22, 2014, 09:53:41 AM
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 09:28:44 AM
Do you need storage barns by buildings like the herbalist place and the hunter's lodge? Can those buildings store their own stuff as well? The gatherer's place is another one. Barns all one size?
You can place barns near to herbalists, hunter's lodges, and gatherer's places. You don't have to, but it may help.
Since workers rather than laborers are the ones who transport their resources to storage it would improve productivity.
Herbalists and farmers store their own products in barns. For hunters and gatherers (and foresters) the storing can also be done by laborers (and is usually done by laborers).
Crops all yield 7 per tile. 21 per basket (three tiles worth) is constant. What's different is how long each crop takes to mature, and how resistant each one is to heat and cold.
For example, beans grow the fastest, but they also are the quickest to die from frost.
100 food per person is subsistence with no margin for error. More is always better. I like to build a cushion in storage of 2 years worth at least.
Boats will stop at TPs with no traders. The purchased supplies will not be moved out of the TP until at least one trader is assigned however. Same with moving stock into the TP. That's what traders do. They can carry 500 at a time, as can vendors (they have wheelbarrows).
Quote from: A Nonny Moose on October 22, 2014, 09:45:29 AM
Thanks. This discussion, so far, has clarified a problem I've been having with farm size. With a 100% farming community with one fish dock and one gatherer, I've found you need one 15 x 15 crop with 2 (minimum) farmers each for each 10 citizens. This sucks up land at a tremendous rate.
In my next town, I am going to try it with smaller farms and more barns. How do you feel about one barn every two or three farms?
Multiple farms per a single barn are fine, as long as the barn is getting emptied out in between harvests so it has room for next year's harvest. Vendors are good for doing this. If they have room in their market that is ;)
You have to keep an eye on your farm barns though, as they can quickly get filled up with other stuff like venison, leather, and tools.
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 10:08:37 AM
Quote from: slink on October 22, 2014, 09:53:41 AM
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 09:19:35 AM
Does the game tell you the different characteristics of crops?
No. See the thread at this link: http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=353.0
Jeez. :/ What's the abridged version of this? What are the crop characteristics in the game? Is it all trial and error, observation?
The abridged version is in the first post. It is from the crop definition files in the game, as revealed when the modding kit was released.
Quote from: irrelevant on October 22, 2014, 10:59:32 AM
Quote from: A Nonny Moose on October 22, 2014, 09:45:29 AM
<snip>
Multiple farms per a single barn are fine, as long as the barn is getting emptied out in between harvests so it has room for next year's harvest. Vendors are good for doing this. If they have room in their market that is ;)
You have to keep an eye on your farm barns though, as they can quickly get filled up with other stuff like venison, leather, and tools.
Thanks again. I've a new town under weigh at the moment, and I built a Market in the second year. Most of my farms are small, and I currently have eight of them with two barns and a working market.
Next order of business is an iron mine (already have a smithy) and a forester. I suspect that I am going to need about half a dozen foresters the way these people use wood for heating.
The other thing to watch out for IMHO is the capacity of your stockpile(s). Stockpiles can come and go as needed, I've found.
Quote from: irrelevant on October 22, 2014, 10:57:34 AM
Herbalists and farmers store their own products in barns. For hunters and gatherers (and foresters) the storing can also be done by laborers (and is usually done by laborers).
These exceptions stated somewhere in the game? Thanks for the other answers. So would you build barns by hunters and gatherers?
Quote from: slink on October 22, 2014, 12:09:14 PMThe abridged version is in the first post. It is from the crop definition files in the game, as revealed when the modding kit was released.
Thanks. How is this useful, by the way? You can't affect the temperature and otherwise there doesn't seem to be too much of a difference. I guess growing seasons are different and a few crops have an extra cycle? When are the growing seasons, by the way? Does the player do that on his or her own? How did irrelevant get to 10 trips of a farmer to a barn?
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 12:31:08 PM
These exceptions stated somewhere in the game?
No, known through observation.
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 12:31:08 PMThanks for the other answers. So would you build barns by hunters and gatherers?
I wouldn't put barns out there, I would put a barn near my main settlement on the side in the direction of the hunter and gatherer. A barn in the circle of the gatherer will reduce the effective area available to the gatherer. Many people put the gatherer's barn just outside the gatherer's circle. It really is a matter of personal preference. Personally I feel that closer to the houses and the market is better, as the barn then can be used for other purposes as well.
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 12:31:08 PM
Quote from: slink on October 22, 2014, 12:09:14 PMThe abridged version is in the first post. It is from the crop definition files in the game, as revealed when the modding kit was released.
Thanks. How is this useful, by the way? You can't affect the temperature and otherwise there doesn't seem to be too much of a difference. I guess growing seasons are different and a few crops have an extra cycle? When are the growing seasons, by the way? Does the player do that on his or her own? How did irrelevant get to 10 trips of a farmer to a barn?
Farmers will start planting in early spring as soon as the temperature climbs above freezing, without you needing to do anything. You will soon see them out in the fields, moving along the rows from the south edge towards the north. Crops will then gradually start to grow.
One thing to be careful of, farmers act as laborers during the winter. If you initiate big laborer projects (like gathering surface stone and/or iron) during the winter, the farmers will participate. When late winter arrives, you want the farmers no longer to be doing stuff like this, so that they can be heading back to their homes so they will have time to re-stock food and firewood and maybe spend some time idling. If the are still doing laborer stuff with it turns early spring they will still have to visit their home and re-stock if necessary, get something to eat, get warm, and generally futz around long enough that the start of planting is delayed, perhaps to the point where that year's harvest will be shit.
tl;dr Cancel your resource gathering projects when winter turns to late winter.
I get ten trips by dividing the optimum harvest for a 120-tile farm (840) by the amount of food a farmer will be carrying (84) when he makes the trip to the barn.
All crops are planted starting together. They have different times to maturity, so they will start being harvested at different times.
All crops begin harvest automatically the moment the yield bar reaches 100%.
All crops will begin harvest no later than the start of early autumn, regardless of whether they have reached full maturity or not.
You can't get two crops from one field in the same season, as planting takes place only in early spring, period.
Quote from: irrelevant on October 22, 2014, 12:59:33 PM
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 12:31:08 PM
These exceptions stated somewhere in the game?
No, known through observation.
Stuff like this shouldn't happen.
Do farmers act like laborers during the winter while being listed as farmers?
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 02:39:48 PM
Stuff like this shouldn't happen.
Do farmers act like laborers during the winter while being listed as farmers?
Bah, all citizens work as laborers during periods when they aren't doing their assigned functions. Like when firewood production stops because you have reached the fuel limit, the woodcutter acts as a laborer. Working as designed. I think this was in the tutorial. You
did go through the tutorial, right? ;)
I did. The first part was about the hunters and gatherers not transporting their stuff.
Anything about pastures? Their size? Can multiple types of animals be inside the same pasture?
Is it a good idea to have herbalists and gatherers together?
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 03:55:12 PM
Anything about pastures? Their size? Can multiple types of animals be inside the same pasture?
Is it a good idea to have herbalists and gatherers together?
One animal type per pasture
They don't interfere with each other. Each needs the same thing, mature trees (at least 3-4 years old). That's what their stuff grows under.
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 03:14:01 PM
I did. The first part was about the hunters and gatherers not transporting their stuff.
The bit about farmers being laborers is in the in-game help, the question mark at the right end of the tools and reports button.
Yea, I got to it.
Are hunting cabins good only in wide open fields or in forests as well? I thought I saw two conflicting things.
Should you be leaving small spaces between houses in case of fire?
Hunting cabins are good wherever you see herds of deer. They usually are best in choke points between hills & rivers. Herds of deer move thru built up areas, thru fields, and thru forests. You just need to scope out where they are.
The herds of deer migrate around between their grazing areas. Best case is to site a hunting cabin such that it has two or even three grazing areas in its circle.
A hunting cabin works nearly as well with a single hunter as it does with two, because of the way hunting works. I almost never use more than one hunter per cabin, and each of my cabins will typically get 800 food and 24 leather per year. Often 25% and occasionally 50% more, occasionally 25% less. A third hunter adds nothing.
For example, check out this hunter center screen, his panel is open to the right:
He's got two herds of deer, one up by the fishing dock, the other to the right behind the forester/gatherer/herbalist node.
Depends whether you play with disasters on or off. I always have them off, so no fires.
So do the herds regenerate in the same places? Cabins are only good where you see herds, no matter how open and lacking of human presence an area may be? I've got a damn herd right in my settlement where I'm planning to expand. It just seems asinine to put a hunter's cabin there.
You got a forester with your herbalist and gatherers? :o I thought those trees were supposed to be old.
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 05:56:45 PM
So do the herds regenerate in the same places? Cabins are only good where you see herds, no matter how open and lacking of human presence an area may be? I've got a damn herd right in my settlement where I'm planning to expand. It just seems asinine to put a hunter's cabin there.
Herds are eternal. You can cull them but they keep reproducing. Yes, exactly what you said about cabins. I wouldn't necessarily build a new one in the middle of my town; look around, the damn deer are everywhere. I put cabins out a bit, in the suburbs, or on the fringe, or out in the sticks, wherever I see deer. The cabins are cheap to build, so I have no qualms about tearing one down later (you recover 50% of what went into any structure when you demolish it) and rebuilding someplace else.
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 05:56:45 PM
You got a forester with your herbalist and gatherers? :o I thought those trees were supposed to be old.
Foresters don't just cut trees, they also can plant new trees. They can plant trees only, they can cut trees only, or they can do both, and with 1-4 workers. Therefore a forester has 12 different possible settings. If you set a forester to plant only with 4 foresters, in 3-4 years you will have an extremely dense forest, many herbs, and much stuff to gather. But the real trick is finding a sustainable equilibrium. I am still playing around with them.
I thought those trees were supposed to be old. This is a common religious discussion among Banished players. It is mythic that herbs grow only in "old growth" forest. Herbs grow where they are growing now,
you can see them, they look a bit like hosta plants. At the start of every game they are growing in existing forests only. If you cut all the trees down, new ones will keep popping up for awhile, then they will stop. If you manage a forest by moderately cutting and planting (one forester), you can sustain herb growth in the understory. If you cut trees too hard and at the same time harvest herbs continuously, gradually the herbs will peter out. Just keep an eye on herb production, if it starts to decline, you can turn it off for a year or two, then start it back up again.
Got 5 herbs visible in this screenie. There was original forest there until a couple of years ago. The herb plants remain after I cut down the trees with laborers. They'll stay there for a long time, if I want to build something there in the next 5 years I'll probably have to tear them out first. But more will never grow there, not without new trees being planted.
Quote from: irrelevant on October 22, 2014, 06:15:21 PMHerds are eternal.
:o Why don't I just build a hunting cabin there? How far can the deer run? I could even house them in eventually. :)
As for the foresters, I'm looking for a reliable source of wood and herbs, not to experiment like that and perhaps end up without one. Do tell what you determine though.
Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 06:40:16 PM
Quote from: irrelevant on October 22, 2014, 06:15:21 PMHerds are eternal.
:o Why don't I just build a hunting cabin there? How far can the deer run? I could even house them in eventually. :)
As for the foresters, I'm looking for a reliable source of wood, not to experiment like that and perhaps end up without it. Do tell what you determine though.
Herds of deer migrate pretty far, then they return, always (unless you cover every tile with structures and roads). You can't trap them. But there are many many herds of deer.
If you have an existing forest, put in a forester cabin with two foresters set to cut and plant. You'll get 100-150 logs/year. If you want lots of logs fast, build a forester, then clearcut the entire circle of trees using the
resource removal tool harvest trees tool (laborers cut the trees down). Then set the forester to plant only with 3-4 foresters, and in four years the forest will be back. Ruins gathering and herbs for that forest until the trees are back, but if you need logs, you need logs.
Say I have a gatherer's place some distance from my settlement. If I build a barn there, without having a marketplace, would the people walk all the way to that barn to get food produced by the gatherer's place? Which would be better, having the gatherers walk to a central barn to deposit their food or people walk to their place to retrieve it?
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 09:04:02 AM
Say I have a gatherer's place some distance from my settlement. If I build a barn there, without having a marketplace, would the people walk all the way to that barn to get food produced by the gatherer's place?
If they have no choice.
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 09:04:02 AM
Which would be better, having the gatherers walk to a central barn to deposit their food or people walk to their place to retrieve it?
Considering that the people who are all walking out to the barn to collect their food are neglecting their work, I'd say it is better to put the barn closer to the consumers. Best would be to build a market. That way people whose job it is to carry food from faraway barns to the consumers will spend their time doing just that. The consumers can then spend their time doing their own jobs.
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 09:04:02 AM
Say I have a gatherer's place some distance from my settlement. If I build a barn there, without having a marketplace, would the people walk all the way to that barn to get food produced by the gatherer's place? Which would be better, having the gatherers walk to a central barn to deposit their food or people walk to their place to retrieve it?
Citizens will usually go to the nearest location which has what they need. The reason to put the barn nearer to the gatherer is so that the gatherer can be more efficient since it is often the gatherer who deposits his or her produce in the barn. When you build a market the vendors get the product from the barn and carry it to the market where the citizens go to get it--thus the vendor does the work of transportation and the citizens can get what they need and get back to work faster.
This is when the locations are stocked. Citizens will walk long distances to get what they need if the supply is not local.
Why are my builders and even fishermen clearing resources instead of doing their jobs? It isn't even winter.
And where resources should be cleared so that buildings can go up, who clears them?
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 02:03:48 PM
Why are my builders and even fishermen clearing resources instead of doing their jobs? It isn't even winter.
And where resources should be cleared so that buildings can go up, who clears them?
Laborers clear building sites.
Anyone can act as a laborer, if they do not have any task scheduled at the moment. True laborers will travel further from their homes to clear and carry resources than will everyone else, but anyone can do that.
...That's dumb. So do I have to cancel all other clearing? And since apparently the builders didn't have any task at the moment why did it take them so long? Because of other clearing?
Does increasing priority also apply to clearing? It doesn't seem so? Does not having the building paused even though builders can't build help?
Is the maximum number of fishermen and hunters you can have 4?
And there went the first settlement. Might as well restart. Kind of strange how they drop of hunger like that, but anyway.
When you create a laborer task, it goes into the "task queue." The task queue contains items like "pick up the pile of logs in square 53113 and take it to the stockpile at 46321." When you initiate construction of a building, it goes into the queue as well. When you initiate gathering stone, iron, or logs, that goes into the queue as well.
Some of these jobs can be very large, if you use the "remove resource" tool over a large area. This can occupy your laborer force for a very long time.
Laborers are the ones who clear the construction sites. They also are the ones who bring construction mats to the sites once they are clear. If they have a large number of tasks in the queue (many of which tasks undoubtedly have been created by you) it may take some time for the construction project to reach the top of the queue. The tasks in the queue that have not been created by you are things like picking up the baskets of food left lying around by gatherers, deer carcases and leather left by hunters, piles of wool around sheep pastures, etc.
There are two tools at hand to change the queue (well, three, actually). The first is the "cancel removal" function. You can use this to undo a "remove resource" command. That is a very blunt tool, and also very effective. The second is the "priority" tool. With this you can move a single laborer task to the top of the queue. Very handy when used sparingly. If you go around banging everything on the map with the priority tool, you just make a bigger mess than you had before. Think of it as being like the "move to top of queue" function in Netflix. If you use it 10 times in a row, the movie you originally wanted to be first isn't going to come until two months from now. In your case, if you hit your construction project one time with the priority tool, the laborers should start moving to clear the site and bring construction mats. It will take a bit for them to complete the tasks they currently are carrying out, but the next thing they do will be to start working on the prioritized building.
The third tool isn't really a tool, it is a tactic. That tactic is to think twice before you use "remove resources/harvest trees/collect stone/collect iron." These are powerful commands that can tie up your laborer force literally for months if you do not exercise some restraint in their use. Select a number of small areas in succession rather than one big one. We've all been there. ;)
Quote from: irrelevant on October 23, 2014, 06:52:28 PM
The third tool isn't really a tool, it is a tactic. That tactic is to think twice before you use "remove resources/harvest trees/collect stone/collect iron." These are powerful commands that can tie up your laborer force literally for months if you do not exercise some restraint in their use. Select a number of small areas in succession rather than one big one.
Good advice, and something I've learned to be very careful about. My approach these days not to harvest all resources, but to do them one at a time as needed. If I'm clearing resources just to have space to build, I generally let the laborers clear just the building footprint, rather than clearing a larger area. It seems like this keeps laborers moving around to different jobs more quickly, and I like to keep some trees even in housing developments (ie slums).
Exactly right
@salamander !
I used to spend a lot of time and labor harvesting as many resources as possible in my earlier villages.
Now, I only gather what I need to build until trading can provide everything I need. I don't even have mines or quarries.
What's a construction mat? And I thought the carcasses, baskets, and all that stuff was supposed to be taken care of by the producers themselves?
Is 4 the maximum number of hunters and fishermen per building? Why can one of the numbers be taken to around 8?
Actually if what you are wanting to do is clear-cut, a better idea is to lay down a farm. It is precise, in that you can define an exact, measured area. Then when it is done you can leave the farm there without activating it, assign no workers, and it will serve as "mulch" that will prevent anything from growing back up in the cleared area, as will happen if you do not promptly fill it up with something else. Also, the laborers seem to act more efficiently in clearing out for a farm than they do for anything else. This may be a false impression, but on the other hand I have watched a fair number of farms being built. I always lay down a farm when I want a clear-cut.
The professionals will "produce" and then laborers take care of the transport to final destinations. If you see Professionals transporting, they weren't busy and took a labor assignment to stay busy.
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 07:42:05 PM
What's a construction mat? And I thought the carcasses, baskets, and all that stuff was supposed to be taken care of by the producers themselves?
Is 4 the maximum number of hunters and fishermen per building? Why can one of the numbers be taken to around 8?
Sorry, construction materials. Logs, stone, iron.
Four is the max fishers, I thought 3 was the max for hunters; I don't know cause I never use more than one hunter per cabin. More is not efficient.
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 07:42:05 PM
And I thought the carcasses, baskets, and all that stuff was supposed to be taken care of by the producers themselves?
Farmers and herbalists collect their own production. All other producers leave that job up to laborers.
I thought the Help stated it is the producers/workers who transfer their own products to storage areas.
As for the hunters, efficiency is different from productivity (if this actually makes sense upon further thought; whether the words are right). Using more hunters is probably more productive?
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 07:47:45 PM
I thought the Help stated it is the producers/workers who transfer their own products to storage areas.
Unfortunately, the help is only 98% accurate.
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 07:47:45 PM
As for the hunters, efficiency is different from productivity (if this actually makes sense upon further thought; whether the words are right). Using more hunters is probably more productive?
I explained this above someplace. One hunter will normally get 800 venison/24 leather. Sometimes he will get 1000/30, occasionally 1200/36, and occasionally only 600/18. Two hunters will almost always get 800/24, sometimes 1000/30, occasionally 1200/36, almost never 600/18. Adding that second hunter isn't the best use of a hunter, better would be to build another cabin and put the additional hunter there.
1) :( and unacceptable
2) How does that even make sense?
I rarely max out a worker location unless I really need to see accelerated effort as in assigning 4 foresters when I usually just use 1 for planting only and 2 if I am planting and harvesting.
I usually keeps pastures and orchards to 1 worker and farms to 2 but I don't build the largest areas possible for these either.
Each hunter can achieve one kill per year.
Education makes a HUGE difference in efficiency of workers and laborers. If I keep my education level above 90% I can really achieve huge successful towns easily. Once it drops below 60% it takes a tremendous effort to keep your village alive.
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 07:54:29 PM
1) :( and unacceptable
2) How does that even make sense?
Education level and animal availability.
Those are beside the point unless animal availability is quite the limiting factor.
Quote from: solarscreen on October 23, 2014, 07:55:41 PMEach hunter can achieve one kill pear year.
...
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 07:58:05 PM
Those are beside the point unless animal availability is quite the limiting factor.
Quote from: solarscreen on October 23, 2014, 07:55:41 PMEach hunter can achieve one kill pear year.
...
You also realize that each season is a year in this game? I think it was figured out that each sim ages 5 years for each complete game year.
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 07:54:29 PM
1) :( and unacceptable
Bummer for you. ;) Again, we've all been there.
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 07:54:29 PM
2) How does that even make sense?
The mechanics of hunting are arcane. Herds of deer move around in random patterns. Hunters move around through their circles in random patterns. When a hunter encounters a herd of deer, he will kill one and leave its carcass and hide lying on the ground for a laborer to pick up.
The hunter will continue to move around through his circle in a random pattern, but he will not bag another kill from that same herd until the following season (not month). IOW if he gets a kill from a herd in early spring, he will not be able to make a second kill from that same herd until early summer. However should he encounter a second herd in the spring, he can bag a kill from it as well. This is why 800/24 is mode, each kill is 200/6, and there are four seasons. But the single hunter sometimes will encounter a second herd in one or two seasons (hence 1000/30 and 1200/36). And sometimes he will miss a herd altogether in a season (hence 600/18).
Adding a second hunter to a cabin does very little to improve the performance here. No empirical proof here, just experience and observation. The additional hunter will add far more with his own cabin in a different location.
Hunters' cabins are unique.
Quote from: solarscreen on October 23, 2014, 08:01:05 PM
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 07:58:05 PM
Those are beside the point unless animal availability is quite the limiting factor.
Quote from: solarscreen on October 23, 2014, 07:55:41 PMEach hunter can achieve one kill pear year.
...
You also realize that each season is a year in this game? I think it was figured out that each sim ages 5 years for each complete game year.
I always refer to seasons and to years as two different things to avoid confusion. The years have numbers, and the seasons have names. The ages of the bannies is another thing altogether.
Quote from: irrelevant on October 23, 2014, 08:05:18 PM
I always refer to seasons and to years as two different things to avoid confusion. The years have numbers, and the seasons have names. The ages of the bannies is another thing altogether.
Part of the fun in the early days! Figuring all this stuff out and learning to work with it or around it.
A lot like the strike zone in baseball. Figure out where the ump is calling it and work with it rather than fight it.
Yep, deal with it or die from it, the game don't care. ;)
Quote from: irrelevant on October 23, 2014, 08:02:07 PM
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 07:54:29 PM
1) :( and unacceptable
Bummer for you. ;) Again, we've all been there.
Bummer for the game, not me.
Quote from: irrelevant on October 23, 2014, 08:02:07 PMThe mechanics of hunting are arcane. Herds of deer move around in random patterns. Hunters move around through their circles in random patterns. When a hunter encounters a herd of deer, he will kill one and leave its carcass and hide lying on the ground for a laborer to pick up.
The hunter will continue to move around through his circle in a random pattern, but he will not bag another kill from that herd until the following season (not month). IOW if he gets a kill from a herd in early spring, he will not be able to make a second kill from that same herd until early summer. However should he encounter a second herd in the spring, he can bag a kill from it as well. This is why 800/24 is mode, each kill is 200/6, and there are four seasons. But the single hunter sometimes will encounter a second herd in one or two seasons (hence 1000/30 and 1200/36). And sometimes he will miss a herd altogether in a season (hence 600/18).
Adding a second hunter to a cabin does very little to improve the performance here. No empirical proof here, just experience and observation. The additional hunter will add far more with his own cabin in a different location.
Hunters' cabins are unique.
So why isn't the production of the cabin multiplied by the number of hunters?
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 08:13:10 PM
So why isn't the production of the cabin multiplied by the number of hunters?
Sorry, my explanation was incomplete. The limit of one kill per herd per season is for the cabin as a whole, not for each individual hunter.
Wtf...
What the capital ****?
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 08:13:10 PM
Quote from: irrelevant on October 23, 2014, 08:02:07 PM
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 07:54:29 PM
1) :( and unacceptable
Bummer for you. ;) Again, we've all been there.
Bummer for the game, not me.
Yes, the occasional vagueness of the help has caused some confusion. The classic examples is "herbs require old growth forest," and "crop rotation is necessary."
It's not vagueness. The Help is explicit in places.
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 08:19:48 PM
It's not vagueness. The Help is explicit in places.
Okay, yes. And in places it is just wrong. Not many, but for sure in the examples I gave above.
edit: "Old growth forest" is vague.
Well, ****! Stuff like this makes me not want to play this game. No wonder the guy is bored or whatever he is.
Quote from: irrelevant on October 23, 2014, 08:20:39 PM
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 08:19:48 PM
It's not vagueness. The Help is explicit in places.
Okay, yes. And in places it is just wrong. Not many, but for sure in the examples I gave above.
edit: "Old growth forest" is vague.
The rotation one applies to diseases only. The explicit false one is the workers transporting their products. Old trees as well, although there may be a usually and which may still be true.
No, old growth forest absolutely is vague. Now that I think about it, that may not be in the help but rather is in the teaser blurb. The crop rotation thing is in the blurb as well. But both are firmly embedded in the Banished mythology.
I read both in the Help. Old trees I found to be useful enough. The workers carrying their own products to storage is egregious.
Okay.
That hunter thing... anything wrong with the fish? Or anything else? Using one hunter will feel weird, take a leap of faith.
O it makes me mad. But I've got nothing to do. :'( That tear looks more like a booger.
That's the spirit! ;)
No, more fishers = more fish. :D Just don't cross the streams, er, overlap the fishing circles.
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 08:40:28 PM
:'( That tear looks more like a booger.
I lol'd
Do the builders of a building carry materials as they can't be doing anything? Do they just fall in the normal queue instead? It has seemed like materials have gotten quicker to my building sites than would be according to a normal queue of labor. The clearing of building sites has been the issue.
Quote from: irrelevant on October 23, 2014, 08:26:42 PM
... The crop rotation thing is in the blurb as well. But both are firmly embedded in the Banished mythology.
Remember that Luke had a blog about the crop rotation/soil quality idea and why he eventually removed it? That could be the source of the continuing myth about crop rotation.
As far as the old growth forests, I have to agree that's a little ambiguous. It was a term used in early game descriptions, but never found its way into the game itself so far as I know.
However, since we can see the herbs, roots, berry bushes, mushrooms, and onions on the map, it is no mystery where they actually are.
Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 10:23:50 PM
Do the builders of a building carry materials as they can't be doing anything? Do they just fall in the normal queue instead? It has seemed like materials have gotten quicker to my building sites than would be according to a normal queue of labor. The clearing of building sites has been the issue.
The builders will act as laborers while they are waiting for the site to be cleared and the construction mats to be placed. It could be that the "task queue" sees clearing the site and bringing mats as one big task, and keeps assigning laborers to it until it is done.
All this talk of "queues" is speculative; we have no visibility into what is really going on. But it seems to fit well with what one can observe.
Considering how much more quickly materials are deposited than the space cleared I don't know.
Does priority apply to clearing? When I used it on covered building blueprints, as you call them, it didn't seem to do anything.
The priority tool moves a job to the top of the queue, but unless you have lots of laborers, most or all of them will already be doing something. The priority tool won't make them drop what they currently are doing; if they already have a task assigned, they will complete that task first. An individual task (walking to some location to pick up an item and then carry it to storage) can take some time, depending on how far they have to walk to do it.
Individual workers also may need to go home to get something to eat (4x per year I believe), and if it is winter they may also need to stand in their doorway for a while to get warm. If they decide their house needs to be stocked up with food and/or fuel, they will do that as well. The priority tool does not override these needs. All citizens first priority is their own food, clothing, tools, and warmth. Only when those needs are met do they do work.
Quote from: irrelevant on October 24, 2014, 05:52:19 AM
The builders will act as laborers while they are waiting for the site to be cleared and the construction mats to be placed. It could be that the "task queue" sees clearing the site and bringing mats as one big task, and keeps assigning laborers to it until it is done.
Unless roads have been marked. Then builders will work on the roads until all the materials are assembled at the assigned job site. One needs to be careful about marking roads in one part of the map and then building in another part, since all the builders will be off building roads and take a long time to get to the building job site.
I find the queueing a little odd in that if a lot needs to be cleared of various items and another lot, queued later, does not the clear lot gets worked on first. Does debris on a lot cause action on the lot to be deferred?
Quote from: A Nonny Moose on October 24, 2014, 08:11:29 AM
I find the queueing a little odd in that if a lot needs to be cleared of various items and another lot, queued later, does not the clear lot gets worked on first. Does debris on a lot cause action on the lot to be deferred?
I'm pretty sure from observation that no one will bring construction materials to a job site until all clearing is complete. I am finding that it is faster for sites like fields, orchards, cemeteries and pastures to clear them completely with the materials harvesting tools first and then mark the construction. The clearing tools seem to bring out far more laborers than the construction tools. I'm not positive of this, but any time I've done a comparison the clear first, build second approach has gone faster.
Quote from: rkelly17 on October 24, 2014, 08:16:53 AM
Quote from: A Nonny Moose on October 24, 2014, 08:11:29 AM
I find the queueing a little odd in that if a lot needs to be cleared of various items and another lot, queued later, does not the clear lot gets worked on first. Does debris on a lot cause action on the lot to be deferred?
I'm pretty sure from observation that no one will bring construction materials to a job site until all clearing is complete. I am finding that it is faster for sites like fields, orchards, cemeteries and pastures to clear them completely with the materials harvesting tools first and then mark the construction. The clearing tools seem to bring out far more laborers than the construction tools. I'm not positive of this, but any time I've done a comparison the clear first, build second approach has gone faster.
Agreed, but if you extract the construction window for both lots, you can see that not even clearing starts before construction on the lot queued second. You would think that clearing would at least start even if no construction materials were delivered.
Quote from: A Nonny Moose on October 24, 2014, 08:20:29 AM
Agreed, but if you extract the construction window for both lots, you can see that not even clearing starts before construction on the lot queued second. You would think that clearing would at least start even if no construction materials were delivered.
It drives me crazy that if I place three or four identical items right next to each other, all but one get built in decent time and that last one takes forever. Doesn't really matter what it is. From houses to barns to pieces of stone wall it always seems to come out that way.
So if you have few laborers will carcasses, baskets, and **** be lying around everywhere? At no point will the people with professions or occupations do the carrying? It also seems like you shouldn't have storage at a separated location unless you have houses too. And what if the people in those houses are employed and are not laborers? Would laborers travel all the way to the location to pick up the stuff and deposit it at the local storage location?
How long does it take a hunter to fully complete one kill in a season? If the cabin is limited to one kill per herd per season why is it possible to have four hunters?
Do people require 100 food at minimum per season or per year?
Do laborers also carry fish out of the fishing dock or whatever it is? Is this perhaps part of the reason why my settlement starved? Where would the undeposited fish have been at? Lying around the fishing place? o.O :/
Might have to read the lay lie thing on dictionary.com a few times...
Hmmm, I just started a new game. Placed a trading post on pause nearby given the location. I've included it in the clearing area. I've also repeatedly now made an area over it for clearing. The people are clearing everything else but not the resources over the building area. Furthermore, yellow x'es aren't appearing on the resources.
Perhaps less significantly, I also noticed that no one carried materials to the houses until I assigned builders, who appeared to then do so.
Quote from: snapster on October 24, 2014, 10:31:33 AM
... Placed a trading post on pause nearby given the location. I've included it in the clearing area. I've also repeatedly now made an area over it for clearing. The people are clearing everything else but not the resources over the building area. Furthermore, yellow x'es aren't appearing on the resources.
I've seen this also (as I'm sure everyone else has). The clearing of an area and the clearing of a building footprint appear to dealt with separately. If you mark an area for resource clearing all of the resources you've chosen to be harvested get the yellow 'x', but if then put within that area a building footprint, the resources within the footprint will not be harvested until the building reaches the top of the queue and laborers start on the clearing specifically for the building.
If the difference in clearing priority is something that causes problems, it's something to plan around.
Are there hotkeys for simulation speed?
How are you supposed to not die of hunger on hard if there is no lake nearby? Just plop a hunter's cabin in your settlement? Fish on a river is crap apparently, and there goes attempt number two. Strangely had a shortage of stone too so much so that I was thinking of a quarry (just thinking, mind you). Those walking distances would've killed the bastards. You also shouldn't listen to the game when it tells you there are four families.
If there's no lake nearby, you adapt to the situation. A lake provides fish, ie food, so if you don't have one, plan on using gatherers and/or hunters to provide the food you need to survive. If you don't have the easily harvested surface stone you need, then a quarry is a good choice.
Possibly the game is a little more challenging than you originally thought? ;)
No, it actually isn't. The point remains. You gain proficiency or at least competence, especially with so few options, and there you go. This may be one of the most interesting parts, which has been claimed by others repeatedly. Challenge needs to be more sustained, or at least there need to be content oriented goals, for long term play. Much of what I've read points to this not being the case.
How are there laborers remaining to move the goods and products of workers when there is an ongoing clearing task?
Quote from: snapster on October 24, 2014, 04:35:06 PM
No, it actually isn't. The point remains.
And you've re-started your game how many times, now? The point may remain, but I'm not seeing evidence for it.
You obviously don't get it. It's not easy looking for evidence of something you don't understand.
I'll actually have to restart a third time.
Quote from: snapster on October 24, 2014, 04:35:06 PM
How are there laborers remaining to move the goods and products of workers when there is an ongoing clearing task?
That was actually the point that folks were trying to make. If you tie your workers up in a large clearing task, movement of goods will suffer. With smaller clearing jobs, you can actually get more than one task (movement of goods and clearing) done in a reasonable time.
Fishing on a convex shoreline is better than fishing on a concave shoreline. It is the surface area of water within the circle of the fishing dock that determines the productivity of the fishing dock, not whether it is on a lake or a river. Also affecting the productivity are: distance to the barn where the fish are stored, distance to the house(s) where the worker(s) live, and the education level of the worker(s).
Until you have the competence to keep your colony alive without asking about each and every step of the game as you go along, you can't claim the game is too easy for you. ;)
Quote from: slink on October 24, 2014, 04:44:00 PM
Until you have the competence to keep your colony alive without asking about each and every step of the game as you go along, you can't claim the game is too easy for you. ;)
And that was my point, whether you agree with it or not. :)
The task doesn't need to be large. There just has to be any clearing and that apparently greatly interferes with your "economy". There is no assignment of laborers to transporting goods and products. It's really stupid. I'm starting to think the developer might've screwed up. The Help offers some evidence for that.
Quote from: salamander on October 24, 2014, 04:45:39 PM
Quote from: slink on October 24, 2014, 04:44:00 PM
Until you have the competence to keep your colony alive without asking about each and every step of the game as you go along, you can't claim the game is too easy for you. ;)
And that was my point, whether you agree with it or not. :)
Again, you don't understand what you're posting about.
Quote from: snapster on October 24, 2014, 04:47:33 PM
Quote from: salamander on October 24, 2014, 04:45:39 PM
Quote from: slink on October 24, 2014, 04:44:00 PM
Until you have the competence to keep your colony alive without asking about each and every step of the game as you go along, you can't claim the game is too easy for you. ;)
And that was my point, whether you agree with it or not. :)
Again, you don't understand what you're posting about.
I think we understand perfectly. ;D
Quote from: slink on October 24, 2014, 04:44:00 PM
Fishing on a convex shoreline is better than fishing on a concave shoreline. It is the surface area of water within the circle of the fishing dock that determines the productivity of the fishing dock, not whether it is on a lake or a river. Also affecting the productivity are: distance to the barn where the fish are stored, distance to the house(s) where the worker(s) live, and the education level of the worker(s).
Until you have the competence to keep your colony alive without asking about each and every step of the game as you go along, you can't claim the game is too easy for you. ;)
There's someone else thick in the head.
Quote from: snapster on October 24, 2014, 04:48:31 PM
Quote from: slink on October 24, 2014, 04:44:00 PM
Fishing on a convex shoreline is better than fishing on a concave shoreline. It is the surface area of water within the circle of the fishing dock that determines the productivity of the fishing dock, not whether it is on a lake or a river. Also affecting the productivity are: distance to the barn where the fish are stored, distance to the house(s) where the worker(s) live, and the education level of the worker(s).
Until you have the competence to keep your colony alive without asking about each and every step of the game as you go along, you can't claim the game is too easy for you. ;)
There's someone else thick in the head.
Moderate your tone, please.
Hard to express it in another way. The explanation is a few posts above and it spans like two sentences. That I'm finding the beginning of this game challenging, even if I find an entire game challenging throughout, and even if it takes me a lot of time to "nail" it all down or overcome it doesn't mean that the game is challenging over the long term. My experience is largely insignificant, especially in contrast to the greater experience of others whom I'm alluding to. A game is being evaluated, not me.
I like interacting with irrelevant more. :)
By the way, I'm asking so I can understand. Not because I'm scared of playing some stupid game. Much of what I'm asking would ideally be addressed by the game.
Quote from: snapster on October 24, 2014, 04:46:46 PM
The task doesn't need to be large. There just has to be any clearing and that apparently greatly interferes with your "economy". There is no assignment of laborers to transporting goods and products. It's really stupid. I'm starting to think the developer might've screwed up. The Help offers some evidence for that.
Because of the 'queue' structure inherent in the game, laborers will complete what you tell them to do, in the order you tell them to do it. If you tell laborers to clear a large area of land and then tell them to do a much smaller job, they will clear the large area first before even considering moving on to the smaller job. If the area to be cleared first is large enough, not only do you have the clearing time, but you also have time where the laborers may decide they're hungry and go back to their houses, or they're cold and try to find someplace warm. Probably one of the slowest things in the game is travel, so these things all contribute to the total time it takes to clear an area. With smaller areas, it's more likely that laborers will complete their task without the 'breaks' for food or warming up. It can be a real difference.
It may be that you need to re-think your idea of economy. Laborers make the economy work, but if they have to do additional tasks besides move goods around, that's going to impact the overall efficiency. It's true in the game, just as it's true in real life.
Nothing new there. Clearing should not conflict with keeping things functioning. It's bad design, and conflicts with the Help which makes more sense. What if things are tight, as they are in the beginning of the game? How little should you be clearing at a time so that your laborers are also keeping up with carrying the goods and products of workers to storage where they can be retrieved from? Something doesn't even add up given how ridiculous this appears to be.
I imagine the number of laborers in later stages of the game must be great. What's the percentage?
If laborers are responsible for clearing and for transporting materials (I'm assuming that's what you mean by 'keeping things functioning'), then clearly clearing and movement of materials will have an effect on each other.
I'm not sure why you seem to be so intent on maintaining that the game developer did a poor job. Whether he did or not, the game is what he created. As players of the game, we live with cards we're dealt, and I personally don't have a problem with the cards I'm holding.
One, according to the Help they shouldn't primarily be responsible for movement of "materials". Two, the en masse commitment to tasks that conflicts with something as basic and constant as the movement of goods and products to retrieval locations is bad design, period. Three, based on the Help we don't even know what the guy intended. Four, I couldn't care less what he did. It's a question of how he did it. If you wish just stick to playing the games. I'd rather play something that's better or in a way what it should be.
Quote from: snapster on October 24, 2014, 05:30:28 PM
One, according to the Help they shouldn't primarily be responsible for movement of "materials".
Where are you getting this information from 'Help'? I'd really like to know, because I can't seem to find a help file anywhere.
Quote from: snapster on October 24, 2014, 05:30:28 PM
Two, the en masse commitment to tasks that conflicts with something as basic and constant as the movement of goods and products to retrieval locations is bad design, period.
Who's to say that movement of goods is more important than clearing? If your priority is to expand your town and you have sufficient resources to do so, I'd say clearing has the higher priority.
Quote from: snapster on October 24, 2014, 05:30:28 PM
Three, based on the Help we don't even know what the guy intended.
???
Quote from: snapster on October 24, 2014, 05:30:28 PM
Four, I couldn't care less what he did. It's a question of how he did it. If you wish just stick to playing the games. I'd rather play something that's better or in a way what it should be.
Then why do you harp on the design of the game? Keep in mind it's his game. You can choose to play or not -- that's entirely up to you. But, the constant complaints about what the game is, and what it's not, serves little purpose.
The Help is at the end of one of the sections of the main toolbar. Its icon is a question mark.
Thanks, I'd never noticed it in the game (under Tools). I'd assumed you were seeing it in one of the folders on your computer, and since I wasn't seeing it at all, had assumed it was maybe a Steam (which I use) vs. stand-alone difference.
So I'm kinda late to this discussion here today, been spending some rare time with mrs irrelevant.
Are there unanswered questions? Seems like there must be, but I'm not up to sorting them out so I'll cut to the chase.
Laborers' basic function is to collect resources that are stacked in piles or in baskets and move them into storage.
"Remove resources/harvest trees/gather stone/iron" will always override that. The number of laborers assigned to a remove resources command will be in proportion to the number of individual tasks (the little yellow Xs) generated by the command. If you lay down 30 Xs, that's going to draw a large response, and will take away from the basic collecting/storing function. If you have but a few laborers, it is best to generate just a few Xs at a time. The times I have screwed myself up have been the times I have gotten impatient and commanded the harvesting of more trees/stone/iron than my labor force was really able to handle. It crashes everything.
Keep in mind that there are two levels to the storage system. The first layer is getting resources picked up and put into storage. The second layer is moving resources from storage into the locations from which they will be consumed. This refers to structures like blacksmiths, tailors, woodcutters, and most important, houses. And it is the second layer that is the most critical. Laborers are responsible for the first layer, but it is up to the individual resource consumers to handle the second. This can involve lots of time wasted by your guys as they walk around from one storage building to another looking for the stuff that they need. Laborers can easily spend a big chunk of their time doing not what you are tellling them to do, but rather in gathering fuel and food for their homes. They will try to provide a balanced diet (protein, veg, grain, fruit) for their family. If they have to look in this barn here and that barn there, they aren't going to be getting much work done.
This is where markets come in. A market with a vendor or two will in a short time gather an inventory of everything that you have (except ale and stone; markets never stock those). It provides a one-stop shop for producers and homemakers to get what they need, so they can spend less time shopping and more time working. I have no idea whether you have figured this out yet, but a market can really give your workforce a huge gain in efficiency.
The other thing markets do is to remove a lot of the anxiety over where to place your first level storage structures. It doesn't really matter where they are, as vendors will go anywhere on the map to grab whatever it is they want to stock in their market. That being the case, "close to the resource producers" is the best location for stockpiles and barns. Which means I'm dumb for not putting my gatherers' barns immediately outside the gatherers' circles. ::)
So not all laborers are committed to a removal task until it is finished? What is the ratio of x'es to laborers? Is it itself perhaps dependent on basic economic demands of transport or is that too advanced of a concept?
I expect it is one laborer per X, if that many are available. If not, the Xs are queued, seemingly at the top.
Typically a number of laborers will head out to a collection project, each one will hit an X, and then another one, and possibly one more, before they go do something else.
The resulting piles of resources do not have the same high priority, and they will sit until they are collected as a matter of course. Unless you hit one or more with the priority tool. Now we're talking micromanagement. You need to really want those logs or whatever it is.
???
Well that's not helpful.
If you want a response, you'll need to be more specific. I'm often unsure whether you're complaining about a game mechanic, or about what I wrote ;)
A lot also depends on how far away the resources you are collecting are from the laborers' homes. Further away, they will spend less time working before they need to return home to eat and possibly restock.
Also, the time of year. They can't work as long in the winter as they can in other seasons. They get cold and have to go home to get warm.
Quote from: irrelevant on October 24, 2014, 08:29:31 PM
If you want a response, you'll need to be more specific. I'm often unsure whether you're complaining about a game mechanic, or about what I wrote ;)
Neither.
@snapster -- I think
@irrelevant pretty much covered the bases on what you can expect laborers to do. Unfortunately, I don't think there's much you can do to change that. IIRC, all of the game's AI is hard-coded and not part of what can be changed in the mod kit.
However, there are ways to deal with laborers' behavior without crippling your town while they're working on a job, and
@irrelevant mentioned several of them, eg clearing smaller areas rather than large ones. As your towns get more spread out, here's another approach that I think helps in keeping jobs moving -- try to keep laborers living local to the job. As you build up a new area, that's where a lot of clearing is likely to be needed. Be sure to have enough housing in the new area so that not only are producers with 'real' jobs where they need to be, but there are also laborers in those houses. That can really cut down on the time needed to reach the job site, and let the laborers remain longer before having to return home for food.
Now for a rather vapid comment.
I've restarted this game any number of times. I don't give up easily but when I can predict a mass die off, I can that village and start a new one absorbing the lessons from prior attempts.
One of the best ways to learn a game like this is to ask it questions. This is done by playing with a specific scenario in mind.
I really am only an egg when it comes to this game so far. I haven't made it past 200 residents. I generally play on medium level because the hard level is too much for me at the moment. Besides, I live in a large farming area so I can use the local expertise.
This thread has been somewhat illuminating, but it seems to be getting to the beating a dead horse stage.
It's just lingering on a topic. Plus you can ask your own questions.
My little brother is on 76 people not playing on hard in like two days of play, by the way. :)
Also, one of the putting off things in general about games I would imagine is difficulty caused by lack of information. When there is a lack of information I think it needs to be done quite deliberately. Could be mistaken to a degree.
Do forester lodges get in the way of hunting cabins?
Gatherer huts are extremely productive, by the way. Fishing docks may be the worst.
Do you need wells if you are by a creek or river?
So far as I know, the only interference would be if one building is in the other's radius. A hunting cabin would be less area on which trees could grow for the foresters to harvest, and having a forester lodge in the hunting cabin's radius might affect the chances that deer will pass through. I'm not sure if that's how a hunting cabins radius works, though.
For some reason I got the impression the two can go together. The hunting cabin taking up space isn't an issue. The trees and the human presence and action interfering with the deer is. We'll see.
What's the circle of the market? The area it serves or the area its vendors supply from?
So, to confirm, a trading post can have no traders and boats would still stop by? Although I guess I am being cheap...
Quote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 12:51:48 PM
For some reason I got the impression the two can go together. The hunting cabin taking up space isn't an issue. The trees and the human presence and action interfering with the deer is. We'll see.
Deer don't seem to care much about human presence one way or another; these guys have been walking back and forth through here every year or so since the beginning. There are other herds moving through built-up areas as well.
Quote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 01:18:38 PM
What's the circle of the market? The area it serves or the area its vendors supply from?
So, to confirm, a trading post can have no traders and boats would still stop by? Although I guess I am being cheap...
The best we can figure out is, a consumer sited in the circle will always go to the market for resources, regardless of whether there may be other, nearer supply sources. Vendors will go anywhere on the map to get something to stock in their market, if there is none anywhere closer.
TP can have no traders and boats will stop. The TP has to have traders for any goods to move in or out of the TP though.
Are herbs ineffective without a visit to a working herbalist with them?
By the way, I'm somehow surviving virtually without laborers. Workers do appear to be carrying at least some of the food they're producing.
Why does the seed merchant not want my herbs? :-\
Quote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 02:16:32 PM
Are herbs ineffective without a visit to a working herbalist with them?
By the way, I'm somehow surviving virtually without laborers. Workers do appear to be carrying at least some of the food they're producing.
Why does the seed merchant not want my herbs? :-\
That's right about the herbs. Townsfolk will pick up herbs wherever they're being stored and then carry them to an herbalist hut with at least herbalist assigned to get healed.
Different types of merchants will only accept certain goods in trade. Seed merchants just won't accept herbs for seeds.
Is there such a thing as a market for logs, stone, iron, and coal?
Quote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 05:32:20 PM
Is there such a thing as a market for logs, stone, iron, and coal?
A market will stock some logs, iron, and coal. Enough to support one blacksmith fronted on the market, making steel tools. Of course, in my example, he's run out of coal. ::) I'm just not making enough, there's only 4 miners. If there were hundreds of coal lying around, this market would probably have 50-100 coal.
The only things a market won't stock are stone and ale.
Or like a reverse market that stocks stock piles and redistributes resources.
You know, I don't think my plan of putting my houses in a central place and building around is a good idea.
With those neat and tidy clumps of everything you'd be horrified to see screen shots of my 70 person thing.
And then there's the sitting duck. It actually misses a gatherer place and the herbalist a little further up. **** that fits happens accidentally, by the way. Like a column of houses by the market, which I figure would be useless or badly positioned now.
LOL! Yeah, if you have disasters on, you might want to build a well in there someplace in that cluster above the market. Looks good, though. For a n00b ;) ;D
If you have any extra guys at all, why not plop down a couple of farms there near the market? Grow wheat or corn if you have the seeds. Farmers will store their crop in the market just like it was a barn.
Farms are great; It's like free food. If it's in the way of something you want to do, as soon as the harvest is done you demolish it and it's gone instantly.
What about that creek being right there? I've been waiting to acquire seeds or animals but they are too expensive.
Good thing there isn't unemployment in this game.
Wow! The well fit perfectly above the market to the left. *facepalm* Speaking of which, what's the well ratio?
Much of what I had available for trade I'm about to trade for two chickens. Adam and Eve. Hopefully not Adam and Jeff.
Not sure what you mean by well ratio, but if you're thinking there's a limit to the number of houses a well can service, there's not. The well is just a source of water that bannies can use to fight fires. More important is how close the well is to fire since several trips back and forth are needed. Also, if you have a river or lake nearby, water to fight fires can be drawn from there.
Did you start on hard? If you didn't you already have two crop seeds and an orchard seed. Just put a farm down someplace where it's clear, and you can see what crop seeds you have.
I'm playing on hard. What about the ratio of herdsmen to animals? Does it vary? Do pastures also contain varying numbers of different animals?
The size of a pasture determines the max number of animals it can hold, although the number of chickens, sheep or cows in same sized pastures are different (chickens > sheep > cows). Although you can assign more than one herder to a pasture, I generally only assign one -- you can still reach the max number of animals allowed, and I haven't seen a clear benefit to having more than one.
You need to make sure you make it big enough to hold at least ten animals, that is the smallest number that you can split into two herds/flocks/whatever.
One herder is fine. It's possible larger pastures may perform better with two.
Truly the only way to have any idea what size pasture to build is to use the size calculator: http://banishedinfo.com/t/Size_calculator/chickens
That's dubious if true. Can modders change how buildings function, how much they require?
Why am I unable to build a cemetery? I just had my first couple of deaths from old age.
In what way are you prevented from building a cemetery?
I do not understand your first statement, or your first question.
Can modders increase the usefulness of herdsmen in pastures, i.e. make a higher number worthwhile?
For some reason I didn't see that the cemetery was too small. There is a width minimum and my skinny thing was not good enough despite its length. Between the market and the hospital I chose the hospital as the first cemetery's neighbor.
Quote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 07:51:20 PM
Can modders increase the usefulness of herdsmen in pastures, i.e. make a higher number worthwhile?
For some reason I didn't see that the cemetery was too small. There is a width minimum and my skinny thing was not good enough despite its length. Between the market and the hospital I chose the hospital as the first cemetery's neighbor.
Yes, modders can do that.
@RedKetchup already has done so for cattle with his dairy mod.
Cemeteries are very strange things. You should consult the size calculator. Because of how the graves are spaced, orienting them so the long dimension runs east-west is far better than north south, and the north-south dimension should always be an odd number. I know you won't like that! ;D
I don't like it so much so that I'm going to ignore it.
Any point of having a physician when there is no disease? I do have the hospital.
Not really.
I just got wheat. Why is it not allowing me to plant it on the crop field?
I am such a dumbass.
I guess you figured it out?
Yes. The seeds. I had seen them before. Not nice.
Can mods do something about this? The market is taking firewood, for instance, from barns that are positioned much closer to a number of houses. It would be nice if some barns could retain some of their stock. Stuff like this could make the game easier but perhaps the difficulty should come from elsewhere.
Why am I struggling for logs with three forester lodges? Building more is strange given how much space they affect and where they need to be built accordingly.
Barns don't store firewood, you need stockpiles for that. That's why the firewood's in your market. Fortunately stockpiles don't cost anything.
What are your foresters set on? How many foresters you assign to each is key.
I have the stockpiles as well.
Four out of four on each location. I don't disable planting or cutting.
Do gatherers work with foresters? If they do, I might have to start "cheating" this way. Doesn't seem like they should.
So, assuming the trees in the circle are mature (takes four years from planting to maturity), you'll get 200-300 logs annually from each of the foresters (if their circles are fully forest). Have you checked how much each is producing? Click the greyed-out "@" symbol next to the target symbol in the top row of the building's UI panel.
Yes, 200 sounds about right. Nonetheless I'm around 0 in logs.
If you have enough tools and firewood, you can turn these guys off for awhile; they are your big log consumers (next to construction). I aim for 100 firewood per house (which is probably close to two years worth) and 1 tool per person (which is 2-4 years worth, tool consumption is difficult to judge).
You can use the production limits to control firewood and tool production. Set the fuel limit at whatever level you desire, and they will not surpass that limit. All production has a limit. Make sure your limits are not set too low (especially for food).
I always end up importing logs. There are never enough logs.
During the winter the retrieved firewood drops the available number close to 0. The tools, along with clothes, are my main trading materials. Do tools last 2-4 years or 2-4 seasons? How many logs go into a tool? And I though you wrote logs are the way to boom via trading? By the way, is there any point to having multiple trading posts? On two different rivers?
"Autumn 12: A child named Demon was born."
I am entertained. :)
Quote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 09:28:34 PM
During the winter the retrieved firewood drops the available number close to 0. The tools, along with clothes, are my main trading materials. Do tools last 2-4 years or 2-4 seasons? How many logs go into a tool? And I though you wrote logs are the way to boom via trading? By the way, is there any point to having multiple trading posts? On two different rivers?
"Autumn 12: A child named Demon was born."
I am entertained. :)
If your logs are getting down to zero, that's a concern. I'd stop building stuff until I had more logs, except for....
There absolutely is a point to having multiple trading posts. Each trading post gets a merchant boat every year or so. If you have two TPs, you get two boats. If you have 30 TPs, you get 30 boats.
The easy way to boom is to put a wood chopper next to a stockpile at the TP. Buy logs, make firewood, buy lots of stuff.
One log costs 2, makes four firewood, each sells for 4.
One log + one iron = two iron tools.
IIRC my 5000th citizen at Sink Mill was named Demon. :D edit: no, it was some other milestone in some other town.
There is little conflict between the gatherers and foresters, even though that doesn't make much sense?
There isn't a conflict with each other, but there is a diminishing return within each system if you try to max them out. Four foresters cutting and planting will tend to denude the circle of trees. Two is more like equilibrium. Four gatherers will tend to denude the circle, three is more like equilibrium.
You can see this forester's circle is looking a bit sparce. I'm going to dial it back.
How would four foresters cutting and planting denude "the system" against two? The two would just produce less or they might just produce less but produce consistently (Is this what you mean by denude? So what?). What is over-gathering? The conflict between foresters and gatherers is that you figure it takes time for there to be stuff to gather, which cutting and planting interferes with.
By the way, I might be on the verge of freezing and starving and the worst part is I don't see what I could do differently.
Trees take four years to grow to maturity. Four guys, while planting, can cut down all the mature trees in the circle in less than four years. If you leave a forester with four guys cutting and planting, eventually there will be no mature trees left in the circle. Foresters will not harvest trees that are not mature.
Gatherers work pretty much the same way, the stuff they gather grows pretty fast, but four gatherers collect it faster than it grows back. Eventually they will pick it bare.
Is this confirmed? My oldest forester lodge producing 200+ a season seems surrounded by plush forest and my oldest gatherer hut has been doing ok.
When you are heading into a death spiral, the most important thing is not to build any more houses. In fact, if you are concerned, you might mark some of the houses for demolition or upgrade. This will evict the residents, shake out their stored food and fuel back into general storage, and prevent them from having more children. Their houses will not burn fuel.
The evicted guys will be okay, they can get food from barns, and can warm up at someone else's house.
Quote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 10:04:31 PM
Is this confirmed? My oldest forester lodge producing 200+ a season seems surrounded by plush forest and my oldest gatherer hut has been doing ok.
If they are doing okay, do nothing. Just keep checking, comparing this year's production with last year's.
What I could've done differently is paired gatherers with foresters and had five apiece of those sumbitches as opposed to two and three. I'll try to do that now and see if it saves me.
Yes gatherers and foresters do play together pretty nicely, lots of players normally use both together.
I suffer for my intelligence. ;) And that wink is disingenuous.
On a more positive note, my first fishing dock has gotten to 1.7k fish per season. ??? A rather gradual increase in production over time has been something I've noticed a couple of times in this game. I seem to have interrupted it... no, my gatherer hut was doing better but I pulled workers from the fishing dock as well, although I don't think I checked their numbers.
Quote from: irrelevant on October 25, 2014, 10:05:28 PM
When you are heading into a death spiral, the most important thing is not to build any more houses. In fact, if you are concerned, you might mark some of the houses for demolition or upgrade. This will evict the residents, shake out their stored food and fuel back into general storage, and prevent them from having more children. Their houses will not burn fuel.
The evicted guys will be okay, they can get food from barns, and can warm up at someone else's house.
...Funnily enough some old geezers are freezing. :P
Quote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 10:18:44 PM
I suffer for my intelligence. ;) And that wink is disingenuous.
I know the feeling.
Quote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 10:18:44 PMOn a more positive note, my first fishing dock has gotten to 1.7k fish per season. ??? A rather gradual increase in production over time has been something I've noticed a couple of times in this game. I seem to have interrupted it... no, my gatherer hut was doing better but I pulled workers from the fishing dock as well, although I don't think I checked their numbers.
What happens is when you first build something the guys that get assigned to work there may not live right there, so they lose time commuting. Gradually, guys swap jobs until they are more or less optimized for how far they have to walk to get to work. That improves productivity.
Quote from: irrelevant on October 25, 2014, 10:05:28 PM
When you are heading into a death spiral, the most important thing is not to build any more houses. In fact, if you are concerned, you might mark some of the houses for demolition or upgrade. This will evict the residents, shake out their stored food and fuel back into general storage, and prevent them from having more children. Their houses will not burn fuel.
The evicted guys will be okay, they can get food from barns, and can warm up at someone else's house.
Quote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 10:18:44 PM...Funnily enough some old geezers are freezing. :P
They can have a cold icon for a long time before they die. They will stop working and go warm up in the nearest doorway.
But if a geezer dies, no big loss, eh? ;)
One thing that is very helpful that you may not have yet is a town hall. It's expensive, but it gives you considerable info on what is happening in your town. I highly recommend saving up and building one.
Also, a town hall plus a market will mean nomads will come. They can sometimes be useful, if you are prepared to take them, having a surplus of food, coats, and tools.
Their houses had no firewood and needed it. One was in their 70s and another in their 50s. :)
Quote from: irrelevant on October 25, 2014, 10:33:32 PMQuote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 10:18:44 PMOn a more positive note, my first fishing dock has gotten to 1.7k fish per season. ??? A rather gradual increase in production over time has been something I've noticed a couple of times in this game. I seem to have interrupted it... no, my gatherer hut was doing better but I pulled workers from the fishing dock as well, although I don't think I checked their numbers.
What happens is when you first build something the guys that get assigned to work there may not live right there, so they lose time commuting. Gradually, guys swap jobs until they are more or less optimized for how far they have to walk to get to work. That improves productivity.
This is what accounts for it?
Things aren't obscure enough for a town hall, if that even answers some questions. I saw it on an image of yours. I'm pretty sure the lodges and huts will make the difference. And I'm not making surpluses at the moment for growing. It does feel kind of silly playing this game- crudely, just estimating overall surpluses or something and playing based on that.
Town Hall's got multiple panels; I've normally just got the overview up.
The production panel is vital. It gives you a snapshot of your production vs consumption.
The graphs in particular can be very helpful.
It can even show you what your guys have squirreled away in their houses. That stuff isn't included in the town summary panel counts.
Yea, some of it seems like it can be quite useful. What good is knowing what is in people's homes, especially overall?
Why do you have spaces between your farms, orchards, and pastures?
For crops and things that reach maturity sooner, like beans, wouldn't the optimal field size be bigger as a farmer would be able to make more trips?
Quote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 11:23:52 PM
Why do you have spaces between your farms, orchards, and pastures?
Do you mean the one tile spacing where roads have been built, or a larger spacing that maybe I'm really not seeing? If the first, then it was so that bannies could move between fields more easily, and probably (only
@irrelevant can say) for esthetics.
Quote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 11:23:52 PMFor crops and things that reach maturity sooner, like beans, wouldn't the optimal field size be bigger as a farmer would be able to make more trips?
There is obviously a limit on field size, I'm sure you've already seen it. Some players routinely make smaller than max sized fields because they like the appearance, or because they don't want to have to have more than a certain number of farmers assigned, and I'm sure there are many other reasons. For early-maturing crops like beans, it's often possible to have a larger field without increasing the number of farmers because there's more time to harvest.
Quote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 11:00:12 PM
Yea, some of it seems like it can be quite useful. What good is knowing what is in people's homes, especially overall?
This stuff isn't included in any inventory totals, the game already has "expensed" it. But this is what your guys have immediately available to eat. If your food inventory appears to be dangerously low, but there is like 50 food per person still in homes, that is six month's worth. No need to panic yet.
Same for fuel.
Quote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 11:23:52 PM
Why do you have spaces between your farms, orchards, and pastures?
Those are roads. Folks prefer walking around fields to walking through them. If enough people take a shortcut through a field with crops in it, the wear a groove in the crop. Don't like that. And,
@salamander's right, I like the way it looks.
Quote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 11:23:52 PM
For crops and things that reach maturity sooner, like beans, wouldn't the optimal field size be bigger as a farmer would be able to make more trips?
Might be, some years, when the weather is good. But the weather is different every year. I use the sizes I use because they work most of the time, and now I have enough guys that I no longer need to worry so much about wringing every last erg from every last guy. I like having the farms be uniform. I build a 120-tile farm, pick a crop, staff it with two farmers, and probably never think about it again. Except to think "I like the way that looks" when the crop is mature.
Quote from: irrelevant on October 26, 2014, 06:20:21 AM
Quote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 11:00:12 PM
Yea, some of it seems like it can be quite useful. What good is knowing what is in people's homes, especially overall?
This stuff isn't included in any inventory totals, the game already has "expensed" it. But this is what your guys have immediately available to eat. If your food inventory appears to be dangerously low, but there is like 50 food per person still in homes, that is six month's worth. No need to panic yet.
Same for fuel.
Early panic is good panic. And why does it seem to me that people consume 100 food per season rather than per year?
Quote from: irrelevant on October 26, 2014, 06:40:14 AM
Quote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 11:23:52 PM
For crops and things that reach maturity sooner, like beans, wouldn't the optimal field size be bigger as a farmer would be able to make more trips?
Might be, some years, when the weather is good. But the weather is different every year. I use the sizes I use because they work most of the time, and now I have enough guys that I no longer need to worry so much about wringing every last erg from every last guy. I like having the farms be uniform. I build a 120-tile farm, pick a crop, staff it with two farmers, and probably never think about it again. Except to think "I like the way that looks" when the crop is mature.
So you essentially waste a farmer? ???
Quote from: snapster on October 26, 2014, 07:31:34 AM
Early panic is good panic. And why does it seem to me that people consume 100 food per season rather than per year?
Maybe the food they had stocked in their homes was low, and they all restocked at once. Also are you putting food in a trading post? It no longer counts as food inventory when it is in a TP.
Quote from: snapster on October 25, 2014, 11:23:52 PM
So you essentially waste a farmer? ???
Do you consider the money you spend on insurance to have been wasted? I don't like partial harvests, and I don't like managing my farms when I get past a certain point. Besides, I have plenty of guys, why shouldn't I staff my farms with enough labor to insure that I get 100% harvests 95% of the time? Nothing else is suffering because of the way I am farming.
You wrote/implied one farmer per 120 tiles is safe. Now two farmers harvest 100% 95% of the time?
I doubt very much that I ever said or implied anything about "safety." I expect I used terms like "optimum" or "efficient." Nothing is ever a sure bet. It's only ever merely as good as you can get it to be.
Why is the cattle pasture not producing anything?
It produces beef and leather when a cow/steer is slaughtered. Until the cattle count reaches the maximum for the pasture you have built, they will not be slaughtering, they will be increasing the size of the herd.
If you need beef and leather, you can adjust the pasture's slider bar down to a lower limit, and they will start slaughtering when that limit is reached.
Just keep in mind if you have fewer than ten in a pasture, you can't split the herd, meaning you won't be able to start a second pasture unless you buy more cattle.
What about milk? Cheese maybe?
Why does it seem like I'll never be upgrading to stone houses?
Do mines pollute orchards, crop fields, and pastures?
Milk and cheese are not part of the vanilla game, but
@RedKetchup has a Diary mod that introduces them to the game. Stone houses use less firewood, but do cost more in resources to build (or to upgrade from a wood house). Some folks never build them, others do when they have the resources. So far as I know, there's no pollution of agricultural areas by mines. Mines do seem to have an effect on health and/or happiness (I don't recall which at the moment), but they don't seem to affect farms etc... directly.
You'd use
@RedKetchup's creamery mod for milk and cheese. Not in the basic game.
Mines and quarries give the people who live within a certain distance (20? 30? I'm not sure) a decrease in happiness. That can be offset by building in the same area a well, a cemetery, a hospital, a tavern, a market, or a chapel, all of which increase happiness.
The other downside of mines and quarries is that they are finite; quarries contain 3000 stone, and mines contain (I believe) 2000 coal/iron. But after they are depleted, you will not be able to remove them, so they are just wasted space after that.
Stone houses, so expensive! I find it's very difficult to consistently build these without bringing in goodly amounts of logs, stone, and iron through trade, or making a significant commitment to stonecutting and iron mining.
In additional to pollution, and perhaps more importantly, a mod should make food spoil and perhaps introduce salt for preservation or even refrigeration or something. Although I guess what do you need great surpluses for? But perhaps it should go further than great surpluses, making the game more difficult.
I'm currently running surpluses of 1k logs and 7k food, by the way.
Quote from: snapster on October 26, 2014, 09:26:09 AM
In additional to pollution, and perhaps more importantly, a mod should make food spoil and perhaps introduce salt for preservation or even refrigeration or something. Although I guess what do you need great surpluses for? But perhaps it should go further than great surpluses, making the game more difficult.
I'm currently running surpluses of 1k logs and 7k food, by the way.
If you have disasters turned on, a tornado can come through and wipe out huge swaths of your houses, your storage, and anything that is in that storage. You're always just one disaster away from near-annihilation.
Also, if you don't have a significant cushion of food in storage, two or three back-to back bad harvests can become a threatening situation.
What's your population? How much stored firewood, how many houses?
That doesn't sound good.
I'm not relying on harvests for food. Haven't had the opportunity to. The 5 gatherer huts, 3 hunter cabins, and 2 fishing docks carry most of the weight. 126 population, houses queued up at a second central location I'm trying to establish, firewood is fine.
Speaking of that second location, its market is not stocking up with the products derived from trade which are being developed at the first central location. So do vendors not go everywhere? Is the other market taking them too quickly and there is no inter-market transfer or redistribution?
By the way, having 2 herders for larger animals like sheep and cattle in 11-capacity pastures does seem to make them reproduce quicker.
Just as in real life, having a surplus in reserve can mean the difference between making it through a bad period and crashing-and-burning. Sounds like your reserves of logs and food are fine, although it does depend on your town's size.
As far as your markets, if the further-out market is not getting its fair share of goods, it may be because of the extra distance the vendors have to travel to collect things -- it's possible they're just being beaten to the punch by other vendors closer to point of production. Vendors do go everywhere to collect resources, but the farther they have to go, the more likely someone else will get the resources first. One possible solution is to put more vendors in further out markets to increase the likelihood the resources will be collected before someone else gets it.
Also, the farther vendors have to go to find what want to stock in their market, the more time they spend walking, the fewer trips they can make. And if they make fewer trips, that means less stuff in their market. So the solution is additional vendor(s) at that market. The rule of thumb I use is, if a market isn't at least 60% full, I add a vendor. If it's over 90% full, I remove one.
Can mods weigh foods, i.e. have them count differently per unit? What is the difference between different types of foods? Them onions and berries might be op.
Not something I've really looked into, but I believe that a mod could affect how much individual resources weigh. Why would you want to do this, though, and is there some reason you specifically mention onions and berries?
To make the game harder and more realistic. Gatherers are very productive, although they don't outpace fishing docks in good positions by too much... like 500 food perhaps or more than 25%. :/ As low as over 10%. If 3 out of 4 workers is more sustainable, and that's a big if also factoring when the effects appear and how long they last for, then I guess they could be roughly even. Then there are the effects on the rest of the game.
OK, so maybe the onions and berries were just examples of resources collected by gatherers, but I still don't really understand what you mean. Do you want resources to weigh more so not as many can be carried on one trip, or is it something else you're after to make the game more realistic?
Along this line, I've been wondering whether there is any difference in the nutritive value of the various field crops.
The nutritive value on the quantity side of things. Weigh them for consumption. The quality side or more involved quantity side is why I asked what different types of foods do.
It would also be a very good idea for a mod to display the trade value of everything. Even if it is conditional on boats arriving first for people to inquire. Not a good oversight by the developer, and he rolls like this. The finding things out on your own is a thorny debate. Needs to be done quite deliberately.
Along with trade value of things, how much certain things cost, things like farmers carrying baskets of how much food, pasture size to capacity of different animals, etc. This is important. An informative mod.
Quote from: A Nonny Moose on October 26, 2014, 10:49:45 AM
Along this line, I've been wondering whether there is any difference in the nutritive value of the various field crops.
Not as far as we can tell from the descriptions in the code.
This section describes corn's behavior at the trading post.
ValueDescription value
{
SpriteSheet _spriteSheet = "Dialog/SpriteSheet.rsc";
String _spriteName = "CornSmall";
StringTable _stringTable = "Dialog/StringTable.rsc:rawMaterial";
String _stringName = "Corn";
// how much the item is worth, +- some tolerance
int _baseValue = 1;
// how much is sold in a single sale
int _stackCount = 2000;
}This part describes corn's behavior in the game.
RawMaterialDescription rawmaterial
{
SpriteSheet _spriteSheet = "Dialog/SpriteSheet.rsc";
StringTable _stringTable = "Dialog/StringTable.rsc:rawMaterial";
String _name = "Corn";
int _lowCreateCount = 20;
int _highCreateCount = 28;
int _weight = 1;
int _createChance = 4;
RawMaterialFlags _flags = Edible | Grain;
float _carryScale = 0.5;
}The rest of it is graphics.
Can that difference be introduced?
Also, automated pasture management would be quite nice. Selecting a number reached for slaughter (or just on capacity) and how far down to go. Something similar could apply to splitting.
Quote from: snapster on October 26, 2014, 11:23:50 AM
Can that difference be introduced?
Not that we can see.
Quote from: snapster on October 26, 2014, 11:23:50 AM
Also, automated pasture management would be quite nice. Selecting a number reached for slaughter (or just on capacity) and how far down to go. Something similar could apply to splitting.
What, and make the game easier? ;D
Quote from: snapster on October 26, 2014, 11:03:02 AM
Along with trade value of things, how much certain things cost, things like farmers carrying baskets of how much food, pasture size to capacity of different animals, etc. This is important. An informative mod.
Quote from: snapster on October 26, 2014, 10:51:52 AM
The nutritive value on the quantity side of things. Weigh them for consumption. The quality side or more involved quantity side is why I asked what different types of foods do.
It would also be a very good idea for a mod to display the trade value of everything. Even if it is conditional on boats arriving first for people to inquire. Not a good oversight by the developer, and he rolls like this. The finding things out on your own is a thorny debate. Needs to be done quite deliberately.
Can you explain what you are really asking here?
There is information missing from the game or is inconveniently accessed that hopefully a mod could incorporate. One food should fill people more or less than another food. Different types of foods could also satisfy different nutritional requirements.
Quote from: snapster on October 26, 2014, 11:48:13 AM
There is information missing from the game or is inconveniently accessed that hopefully a mod could incorporate. One food should fill people more or less than another food. Different types of foods could also satisfy different nutritional requirements.
Grain, Fruit, Vegetable, and Protein types all satisfy different nutritional requirements. This information is in the help file.
It makes little difference whether a food is harder to get or it is less filling, the result is the same.
It is difficult to incorporate missing information into a mod. If by "inconveniently accessed" you mean that it is controlled by the executable, that is as good as missing from the point of view of mods.
We're just not on the same page.
Quote from: snapster on October 26, 2014, 12:27:34 PM
We're just not on the same page.
Hardly surprising. It would appear that some people just don't have much analytical skill. Why can you not treat the program as a "black box" and turn it into a "white box" by running it?
I generally learn about a program by using the items that come with it, like its help system which is often mysteriously unhelpful, by operating the program with acute observation of its behaviour. Is that not one of the main functions of a "game"? I find this very entertaining.
The page you are on practically demands the program specification. That is proprietary to SRS and you are not likely to get it, even if some of the source code is available.
I could be wrong, but it sounds like at least part of what he's asking for is what we all spent so many fun hours figuring out on our own - all the spreadsheety goodness that came of endless experimentation, comparing results, and the dedicated players who posted spreadsheets on Reddit and other places.
I would be sad if all that had been available up front. Not only would it have taken out a lot of the fun for me, but a good bit of community building happened around all of that. Along the way, a lot of us learned that max efficiency does not equal max fun. If we'd had all the data, some of us might not have been as inspired, as creative, with what we were given. There's a lot of value in "try it and see what happens", I think. More fun, less math.
It's not the data but the general information derived from it that matters. Anyway, you have a point, but there is also a counter-point. Many players don't want to be arsed with much missing information especially if there is no natural reason for its absence. Although ironically I'm the more math oriented one when my instinct and my tendency is to not deal with deriving things through data collection and analysis to get to a point where I can play the game well. It indeed isn't as smart as some people might like to imagine it being, but yea, it takes some effort and smarts (which certain people/pretentious twerps of various ages in my mind may be attracted to). It also takes much wasted time, depending on your mind-set. This is a niche game for multiple reasons. Don't harbor the illusions it's a niche game because it's so smart. Although maybe that is some people's genuine idea of fun. Salutations to them!
"all the spreadsheety goodness that came of endless experimentation, comparing results, and the dedicated players who posted spreadsheets on Reddit and other places"
And yet I had to correct you on its actual significance.
By the way, Moose, what did you mean with that post? I couldn't quite follow it.
PS
It will be a proud moment for me when I do my first spread sheet and I find a good reason to feel proud of it. :'(
Indeed, how sad. ;D
Spreadsheets is what I do all freaking day. I made my first spreadsheet in 1988, and I'll be mighty proud when I make my last one! Maybe in 2030 or so. :o
Does the herbalist stay at his place once the herbs limit has been reached to serve "patients"?
What do you do with them spreadsheets, irrelevant?
Quote from: snapster on October 26, 2014, 03:44:27 PM
Does the herbalist stay at his place once the herbs limit has been reached to serve "patients"?
What do you do with them spreadsheets, irrelevant?
No, she turns into a laborer, but guys still take herbs to the (unmanned) herbalist and consume them there anyway.
I'm controller of a manufacturing company. I live by spreadsheets.
I thought someone had to be at the herbalist's place for the herbs to be consumed?
If there is no barn nearby would workers or laborers depositing goods and products use a nearby market?
Quote from: snapster on October 26, 2014, 03:50:22 PM
I thought someone had to be at the herbalist's place for the herbs to be consumed?
It would seem not. I just checked, it's happening.
Quote from: snapster on October 26, 2014, 03:50:22 PMIf there is no barn nearby would workers or laborers depositing goods and products use a nearby market?
Yep. Even if there is a barn nearby, if the market is closer they'll use it. Probably ;) Nothing is certain in this game when it comes to putting things into storage.
I'll actually be opting for 240-tile farms and orchards I think. Seed doesn't come often enough and it isn't too cheap.
Quote from: snapster on October 26, 2014, 04:11:19 PM
I'll actually be opting for 240-tile farms and orchards I think. Seed doesn't come often enough and it isn't too cheap.
Good luck with that, unless you are using a mod. The standard limit for crops and orchards is 225 (15 x 15).
Quote from: snapster on October 26, 2014, 04:11:19 PM
I'll actually be opting for 240-tile farms and orchards I think. Seed doesn't come often enough and it isn't too cheap.
You only need to buy each seed a single time and you have that crop forever.
@irrelevant, have you seen the beta of my tavern?
@slink I know there is one, I haven't really looked at it. People complain about the vanilla tavern but I like it. What does yours do?
@irrelevant, it only provides ale, mead, and wine as you make them elsewhere. It does not make any itself. I am not certain the concept of serving two or three types at the same time is working out. It seems to dole out whatever it has received, in the order it was received (FIFO), rather than in equal amounts of two or more beverages. The tavern also matches the brewery and the snug houses, if that matters to you. ;)
So it's basically a happiness circle, a way to burn off ale, and eye candy? ;)
Ale, mead, and wine, yes. ;D
It is a very pretty building. Might build one. Conflicts?
Sadly, it conflicts with the new Colonial Charter mod, if you planned to use that.
No; while that is a massive achievement, it really isn't that interesting.
Sounds interesting. What does it do?
Quote from: Bobbi on October 26, 2014, 07:05:16 PM
Sadly, it conflicts with the new Colonial Charter mod, if you planned to use that.
Which parts of it conflict? You can see that by clicking on the button labelled with "..."
Edit: It pretty much has to be the mead and the wine, because everything else starts with SJGL.
Edit 2: It's probably the wine. That is no problem. Let their mod define the wine, assuming that is an alcoholic beverage in their mod.
Quote from: snapster on October 26, 2014, 07:36:36 PM
Sounds interesting. What does it do?
http://banishedinfo.com/mods/view/679-Colonial-Charter-1620-BlackLiquid
Somewhere back a page or so
@snapster asked what I meant. I want him to know that what I said was exactly what I meant.
However, to clarify, my point is "play the game and you'll find out soon enough."
Quote from: A Nonny Moose on October 26, 2014, 02:06:57 PM
I generally learn about a program by using the items that come with it, like its help system which is often mysteriously unhelpful, by operating the program with acute observation of its behaviour. Is that not one of the main functions of a "game"? I find this very entertaining.
This is how I approach games as well. Part of the fun is figuring out how it works.
*flies over head*
Do you make sure that there is a balance between housing and jobs in an area, and if so how precisely?
Is there a bakery yet? Does it take time to prepare some foods for consumption inside houses, like wheat for instance? Can it be made so?
Quote from: irrelevant on October 27, 2014, 06:04:26 AM
Quote from: snapster on October 26, 2014, 07:36:36 PM
Sounds interesting. What does it do?
http://banishedinfo.com/mods/view/679-Colonial-Charter-1620-BlackLiquid
Woah, what did you find wrong with this?
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 06:57:27 AM
Do you make sure that there is a balance between housing and jobs in an area, and if so how precisely?
Yes. Use the pathfinding tool to see where the people live who work in an area. If any long commutes are detected, build more housing.
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 06:57:27 AMIs there a bakery yet? Does it take time to prepare some foods for consumption inside houses, like wheat for instance? Can it be made so?
There's a mod that includes a bakery, but I'm waiting for the
@RedKetchup bakery to go with his mill mod. He says he's working on it.
Food requires no prep. Guys only eat four times a year too; they should have to eat 90 times a month. ;)
What did you find wrong with that mod? At first glance those guys seem to be doing at least part of what should be done in my opinion.
Another issue with labor balance, by the way, is that if there is an excess of housing laborers may be traveling long distances. An excess of housing in a developed area doesn't cause less families, does it? I have been noticing older single people, not too old, but that's perhaps because their spouses already died...?
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 07:19:26 AM
What did you find wrong with that mod? At first glance those guys seem to be doing at least part of what should be done in my opinion.
I'll probably give it a try at some point. But it makes no sense to include it in an existing town. You'd want to be prepared to commit to that mod and just a few others. For now, trying out new mods, I want to be able to pick and choose what to include.
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 07:19:26 AM
Another issue with labor balance, by the way, is that if there is an excess of housing laborers may be traveling long distances. An excess of housing in a developed area doesn't cause less families, does it? I have been noticing older single people, not too old, but that's perhaps because their spouses already died...?
An excess of housing can cause existing families to split up to fill the vacancies. At the least this uses more fuel than is necessary. Excess houses also mean more food in houses, less available for use by others. I haven't seen any conclusive evidence either way as to whether it slows down babymaking. Mainly because I try like hell not to let it happen in my towns.
Elderly singles almost certainly have lost their spouses. They can often be forced to "remarry" by finding another elderly person of the opposite sex and marking both houses for demolition/upgrade, then recovering just one of them until they both move into it. Almost always works.
It certainly isn't uninteresting, but yes, it requires a commitment. I have no issue with that given what it offers. At some point greater compatibility could make sense but that would require people to step their games up.
Can couples be broken up by excess housing? Is food not taken to houses in proportion to their residents?
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 08:32:32 AM
It certainly isn't uninteresting, but yes, it requires a commitment. I have no issue with that given what it offers. At some point greater compatibility could make sense but that would require people to step their games up.
I don't know about that. I would consider it highly unlikely that this mod in any way increases difficulty. Any difficulty would come from moving back the learning curve.
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 08:32:32 AMCan couples be broken up by excess housing? Is food not taken to houses in proportion to their residents?
Not permanently broken up, if number of families increases and number of houses does not, they will eventually get back together. I don't think stocking houses with food is done proportionally to number of dwellers; I could be wrong.
You might be right. At least a progression or a web of more content is there. That is quite notable.
Being broken up breaks families or their prerequisites up and hinders growth. If both (couples breaking up and full stocking of houses independent of number of residents) are true they are strange and unfortunate. But adult males and females without houses of their own will cause the singles to vacate houses? Individually or together?
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 08:52:36 AM
You might be right. At least a progression or a web of more content is there. That is quite notable.
Being broken up breaks families or their prerequisites up and hinders growth. If both (couples breaking up and full stocking of houses independent of number of residents) are true they are strange and unfortunate. But adult males and females without houses of their own will cause the singles to vacate houses? Individually or together?
Totally under the control of the player, avoidable by not building too many houses.
When there no longer are excess houses (when there is an eligible M&F who would move into a house together if one were available), the married couple will move back in together, in one of the two houses they currently occupy.
Quote from: irrelevant on October 27, 2014, 09:15:09 AM
When there no longer are excess houses (when there is an eligible M&F who would move into a house together if one were available), the married couple will move back in together, in one of the two houses they currently occupy.
Are you sure this happens spontaneously? I have had to evict one half of the split family in order to free the house for a new couple.
Thinking about it more, you may be right. I normally deal with it by demolishing one of the two houses just as soon as it happens (I always check new houses to see who moves in, unless I have way more families than houses). So, oops.
Stuff like this can accumulate for new or inexperienced players. Hardly the way it should be.
Bah. Learning curve stuff.
Quote from: slink on October 27, 2014, 09:19:22 AM
Quote from: irrelevant on October 27, 2014, 09:15:09 AM
When there no longer are excess houses (when there is an eligible M&F who would move into a house together if one were available), the married couple will move back in together, in one of the two houses they currently occupy.
Are you sure this happens spontaneously? I have had to evict one half of the split family in order to free the house for a new couple.
Quote from: irrelevant on October 27, 2014, 09:23:18 AM
Thinking about it more, you may be right. I normally deal with it by demolishing one of the two houses just as soon as it happens (I always check new houses to see who moves in, unless I have way more families than houses). So, oops.
And this is just plain bad.
Quote from: irrelevant on October 27, 2014, 09:25:14 AM
Bah. Learning curve stuff.
You overestimate the blessing this game, or any game, is. Just because this is acceptable to you doesn't mean it would be to someone else. It's counter-productive. There is no legitimate reason for it, it is not communicated, and it can have a significant effect. Games need to be mindful and humbler.
Why do so many people lack a larger perspective?
By the way, your fix is unrealistic, exploitative/artificial/gamey, and smacks of poor design. Not good either.
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 09:25:36 AM
Quote from: slink on October 27, 2014, 09:19:22 AM
Quote from: irrelevant on October 27, 2014, 09:15:09 AM
When there no longer are excess houses (when there is an eligible M&F who would move into a house together if one were available), the married couple will move back in together, in one of the two houses they currently occupy.
Are you sure this happens spontaneously? I have had to evict one half of the split family in order to free the house for a new couple.
Quote from: irrelevant on October 27, 2014, 09:23:18 AM
Thinking about it more, you may be right. I normally deal with it by demolishing one of the two houses just as soon as it happens (I always check new houses to see who moves in, unless I have way more families than houses). So, oops.
And this is just plain bad.
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 09:30:01 AM
Quote from: irrelevant on October 27, 2014, 09:25:14 AM
Bah. Learning curve stuff.
You overestimate the blessing this game, or any game, is. Just because this is acceptable to you doesn't mean it would be to someone else. It's counter-productive. There is no legitimate reason for it, it is not communicated, and it can have a significant effect. Games need to be mindful and humbler.
Why do so many people lack a larger perspective?
By the way, your fix is unrealistic, exploitative/artificial/gamey, and smacks of poor design. Not good either.
This is your opinion. We have ours. ;D
And people like you contribute to why things aren't as good or successful as they could be. You also make sense of some of my questions, ironically.
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 09:30:01 AM
Quote from: irrelevant on October 27, 2014, 09:25:14 AM
Bah. Learning curve stuff.
You overestimate the blessing this game, or any game, is. Just because this is acceptable to you doesn't mean it would be to someone else. It's counter-productive. There is no legitimate reason for it, it is not communicated, and it can have a significant effect. Games need to be mindful and humbler.
Why do so many people lack a larger perspective?
By the way, your fix is unrealistic, exploitative/artificial/gamey, and smacks of poor design. Not good either.
Okay.
I like that response. Whatever. :P That's what the "kids" would say.
One, can you actually evict people without demolishing a house? Two, how can you have more families than houses? ???
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 09:42:13 AM
One, can you actually evict people without demolishing a house? Two, how can you have more families than houses? ???
Why should we bother to reply, since you ridicule our answers?
This might be the first time I've ridiculed something, and it still is not completely clear on closer examination substantively. Arguably I could be too petty. I have found this thread quite informative and valuable, even though the laborer only transporting stuff thing does not appear to be true. Plus I like the interaction. :-[ :-\
There's also a separation of stuff.
Irrelevant has to ask himself why he responds so much, by the way. :D If it wasn't for him this thread would've probably gone differently.
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 09:42:13 AM
One, can you actually evict people without demolishing a house? Two, how can you have more families than houses? ???
Two ways. You can fire all of your builders. Then nothing happens to the house. Or, you can sit and watch it, and if builders come over and start to tear it down, you can hit the recover button before demolition is complete. At this point it's entirely possible that a new family moves into the house, if new guys in the meantime have become eligible.
The Town Hall definition of families is basically "possible families." It's complicated. But it includes some single people who would like to form a family, and who will do so if you build them a house. It's how you know when you are falling behind in house building.
I guess I just can't help myself. ;) Like Roger Rabbit and the old shave and a haircut trick.
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 09:39:43 AM
I like that response. Whatever. :P That's what the "kids" would say.
It isn't "whatever" exactly; it's more, "Let's say I say you're right. Now what?"
Does the single person leave the house immediately? And with an eligible couple it would be immediately claimed if the demolition is cancelled, or at the very least a single person won't return? Do families effectively mean couples?
@snapster, I agree with you that this is one game mechanic that certainly could use some improvement. I find it very micromanaged to have to check to see who is in the houses, if it makes sense, and if I want to "destroy" the houses and then "recover" them before they are actually destroyed so that my citizens open up a house for a new young couple. Sadly, I do not have any brilliant suggestions for how it might be improved. I did suggest a loooong time ago on, I think, the Shining Rocks forum, before it turned into a spamfest, that one idea might be to have the ability to mark a house as "working" or "not working", as that mechanic appears to be available in the game already.
Quote from: irrelevant on October 27, 2014, 10:01:31 AM
I guess I just can't help myself. ;) Like Roger Rabbit and the old shave and a haircut trick.
*clueless*
Quote from: irrelevant on October 27, 2014, 10:03:12 AM
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 09:39:43 AM
I like that response. Whatever. :P That's what the "kids" would say.
It isn't "whatever" exactly; it's more, "Let's say I say you're right. Now what?"
We change ****! Maybe compile something (not the computer term)- a comprehensive list (or so the ambition would go) of useful things to know. Or consider what mods can do (like adding information or fixing the issue), and add it to a list. Or if this Luke person is ever gotten a hold of it'd be something to bring up. Or, we clearly condemn this stuff like the UN does. Personally, it makes me feel a lot better. No joke. It does make me feel much better. That certainty and justice. And getting something valuable and true done, or orderly perhaps, or something that makes me feel better on the inside for some reason... there is a case to me partly having to reevaluate my life.
@Bobbi I don't even know what I'll do. Still uneasy about all this and I might just try to avoid it, including dealing with it.
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 10:12:49 AM
Quote from: irrelevant on October 27, 2014, 10:01:31 AM
I guess I just can't help myself. ;) Like Roger Rabbit and the old shave and a haircut trick.
*clueless*
Quote from: irrelevant on October 27, 2014, 10:03:12 AM
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 09:39:43 AM
I like that response. Whatever. :P That's what the "kids" would say.
It isn't "whatever" exactly; it's more, "Let's say I say you're right. Now what?"
We change ****! Maybe compile something (not the computer term)- a comprehensive list (or so the ambition would go) of useful things to know. Or consider what mods can do (like adding information or fixing the issue), and add it to a list. Or if this Luke person is ever gotten a hold of it'd be something to bring up. Or, we clearly condemn this stuff like the UN does. Personally, it makes me feel a lot better. No joke. It does make me feel much better. That certainty and justice. And getting something valuable and true done, or orderly perhaps, or something that makes me feel better on the inside for some reason... there is a case to me partly having to reevaluate my life.
@Bobbi
I don't even know what I'll do. Still uneasy about all this and I might just try to avoid it, including dealing with it.
Well, that's something.
*nods*
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 10:12:49 AM
Quote from: irrelevant on October 27, 2014, 10:01:31 AM
I guess I just can't help myself. ;) Like Roger Rabbit and the old shave and a haircut trick.
*clueless*
I'd probably go with "chump." ;)
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 09:39:43 AM
We change ****! Maybe compile something (not the computer term)- a comprehensive list (or so the ambition would go) of useful things to know. Or consider what mods can do (like adding information or fixing the issue), and add it to a list. Or if this Luke person is ever gotten a hold of it'd be something to bring up. Or, we clearly condemn this stuff like the UN does. Personally, it makes me feel a lot better. No joke. It does make me feel much better. That certainty and justice. And getting something valuable and true done, or orderly perhaps, or something that makes me feel better on the inside for some reason... there is a case to me partly having to reevaluate my life.
I don't even know what I'll do. Still uneasy about all this and I might just try to avoid it, including dealing with it.
I'm just not optimistic regarding getting such changes made. Yeah, "nothing ventured nothing gained." I guess it comes from being involved in too many fruitless, frustrating ventures dousing any fires in my belly.
But Luke did respond earlier to player feedback, and did make some changes in 1.02-1.03. May he's still listening. But I'd be very surprised to learn that he's listening to us here. He did respond overnight to some bug reports over on the SRS forum. http://shiningrocksoftware.com/forum/discussions
Passion is part of it. Whether it's assertiveness and persistence or accumulating enough to offer and putting it in a good form to catch his attention, which is what I was thinking of on mod capabilities.
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 10:03:33 AM
Does the single person leave the house immediately? And with an eligible couple it would be immediately claimed if the demolition is cancelled, or at the very least a single person won't return? Do families effectively mean couples?
By the way, about that mod, look at this part of the description:
QuoteYou are a noble Lord, granted a tract of land by the crown in a newly discovered faraway land across the Ocean. Your country has rested all of their colonial ambitions on your venture, and supported you by recruiting a few families, a ship, and some potatoes with which to start a new productive and PROFITABLE crown colony. Your job is to ensure the survival of your country's citizens while quickly getting your agricultural and resource production up to speed - the Old World expects you to export strange new crops and products to them to justify continued immigration and investment. Can you fight against the harsh winter, unknown diseases, natural disasters, and lack of food to make your colonial venture successful? Or will you join the list of other failed colonies, their remains now only an archaeological curiosity?
In CC1620 you'll grow and cure Tobacco to fuel your home country's growing need for smoking. You'll raise insects, llamas, and pigs and make all-new clothes from a selection of newly modeled textile crops. You'll make rope from crops you grow, and use it to build new, better buildings for your colonists to call home. You'll even press seeds into oils, grow all new orchards, and welcome the first monks into your town. The BlackLiquid team will continue to release updates and optional DLC to expand the CC1620 universe even farther, giving you an all-new game experience within Banished.
Will you survive, my Lord? Or will search parties find nothing left of your settlement but broken pots and bones?
Does this mean modders can introduce goals into the game?
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 11:08:08 AM
- the Old World expects you to export strange new crops and products to them to justify continued immigration and investment
Does this mean modders can introduce goals into the game?
Smells like a sales blurb to me. I suspect this relies heavily on the JCYEAP* subroutine.
*Just Close Your Eyes And Pretend
I don't even know what a ****ing sales blurb is in this sense.
Quote from: snapsterWill you guys be incorporating challenge to go along with the content? Whether some of the content is to respond to a new source of adversity or whether the content is to enable players to deal with greater demands, for instance.
Based on the description, are you capable of introducing goals into the game? Will continued immigration and investment be made conditional on an export level?
Seems you were right. And here is a definitive answer on what mods can do in this respect:
Quote from: brockenspectreHi, thanks for the comment. We get a lot like this but you have to understand - we squeezed every single piece of capability out of what we're able to mod. What you're asking for is more than banished is currently capable of, and there's no way we'll be able to add game functionality like that.
Quote from: snapsterYou seem like the perfect people to get a hold of the developer and explain how things stand to him. By his admission he didn't even plan on offering mod capability, yet he implemented something. Perhaps by explaining the opportunities there could be in this game or its potential he would be persuaded to do more work. Why does it seem to me like there's a general lack of balls in the Banished community on this topic? It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the developer is receptive to a good, substantive appeal.
By the way, 1620 sounds like it applies to New England. What you seem to be doing applies to Virginia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia#Colony , with 1607 perhaps being a better date.
...I knows a little of something too. ::) The date I would've pulled out of my ass was like 1507 somehow though. More importantly, "Luke" isn't the queen of ****ing England. Slam down his door if you have to.
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 11:43:59 AM
I don't even know what a ****ing sales blurb is in this sense.
Did you notice they have a PayPal Donate link on their page?
I'm fine with that. And misleading with a "sales blurb" strikes me as counter-productive. But these guys might be kids who can mod, which would explain them being "your favorite modders" as they claim.
Quote from: brockenspectreWe're not adhering to history. They didn't have silkworms in either place or time. Sounds like you have all the balls you need to ask him for more without our help. Good luck.
Quote from: snapsterYou obviously are trying to in picking 1620. Your description actually does fit decently with Virginia and a different date. Also, I would be doing it if I had the necessary knowledge to make a good appeal. Now, is there anyone more mature and with more passion than you on the team?
How much punk crap is out there?
Quote from: brockenspectreI find it incredible that you feel the need to comment on my maturity level. I don't feel the need to justify our design decisions to you, nor do I appreciate the criticism about the community's "balls" being placed squarely on our shoulders. I am certain the rest of the team will agree with me. We will be happy to refund any money you paid or donated to this mod.
I don't know whether to grin or despair. Were you actually right on the description being exactly a misleading sales blurb? That would be something.
What are the avenues for contacting the developer? I'll try it myself.
Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 12:04:27 PM
What are the avenues for contacting the developer? I'll try it myself.
http://www.shiningrocksoftware.com/
Thank you.
Quote from: brockenspectreSo after several rereads of your comments, including more than a few passes through Google Translate (tried Vietnamese, Klingon, and Fuckwit - no luck), a blood sacrifice of omniscience to Baphomet (didn't work), and using my one and only "Phone a Friend" (He didn't pick up) my best guess is that what you're trying to criticise us for (and again, I am a COMPLETE idiot so I probably misunderstood again) is that the little lore story on the description page about being sent across the sea and stuff implies some kind of extra mechanics on top of vanilla game?
Oh, well it doesn't. That was easy.
I'm off to go be completely retarded somewhere.
The little lore story, irrelevant! I'll believe that take. It really fascinates me how on the face of it these idiots create some quality content.
QuoteHello,
I know that you're a single person working on Banished. Despite this fact I think the game has a lot of potential. Given the capabilities the mod community can produce a wealth of creative content. Have you given consideration to this? Banished appears to be inherently a very flexible game and if you work on enabling modders to take this game in different directions, keep enhancing and improving it, I think it can become quite successful.
What is your motivation? Is it money, creating something worthwhile and enjoyable, both? Whatever it is, I think you have a very good chance of pursuing it further. Would you be willing to explore specifics?
This is what I sent to the feedback email address.
@snapster -- It would seem that you've managed to use your unique brand of charm on individuals outside this forum. I sincerely hope you were not portraying yourself as a representative of this forum, or that your views were typical of this forum.
O, dear salamander. I wasn't raised by the posters on this forum. Your precious reputation should be fine unless some malicious souls exploit your weakness.
By the way, they went back and edited the comments of the person I was engaged with. ;D Not a disaster, but so pathetic.
It was not my own reputation I was worried about, after all I'm just an anonymous salamander, but the forum itself. Although there are many forums devoted to Banished, and undoubtedly many members of those forums that tend to stick to one or another, there is a lot of opportunity for cooperation in terms of mods etc... I simply don't want to see one person poison the well and close those opportunities. The continued success and development of the game is the effort of a community of many players, not just those here.
Some very crude people would be affected. Kind of ironic to bring up continued success and development, but anyway.
Speaking of crude, and let's add rude and obviously suffering from obnoxious personality disorder, I honestly thought you had started to fit in here to some degree. You have no idea the effort that has been made by members here to make that happen. And yet, you still show yourself to be an entirely self-absorbed individual with no thoughts beyond your own personal immediate gratification.
I thought about that with crude. ;) Individuals don't represent forums, salamander, unless you'd like to support me and explicitly bring up forum solidarity, which wouldn't make the least sense. I don't know where you're getting this notion from. Let alone that if the person wasn't an idiot responding to constructive comments nothing would've happened, but that's beside the point. Relax.
Well, good luck with your charm offensive. ;) If you think someone's being an idiot, pointing it out to them isn't likely to advance your cause much.
Is mod code available? For editing as well? Can someone publish a mod that includes other edited mods?
Is there an order between markets and barns or will workers and laborers deposit food and other products at whichever is closest?
Yes, barn or market, whichever is closest.
Do you do herbalist, gatherers, foresters, and hunters nodes? Takes some space within them circles...
I put barns nearby ( put barns everywhere), normally not in the circles, but eventually the circles always get encroached on by other development, such as farms. When that happens I soon create a new forest node farther out, and demolish the old one.
I could have sworn this was discussed in this thread already, quite near the beginning.
Not putting all four buildings within a single node. That's what I'm wondering about, whether it's a practice. Perhaps node is not the right word, but anyway.
Another good idea for a mod, if possible, would be information on how much of yields is lost.
Quote from: snapster on October 28, 2014, 08:20:58 AM
Do you do herbalist, gatherers, foresters, and hunters nodes? Takes some space within them circles...
There is a series of videos by pinstar on YouTube which present a "crossroads system" for starting on Hard. The author places a gatherer, a forester, a hunter and a woodcutter along with a barn, a storage yard and 6 houses at the center of a circle. It is an effective way to start on Hard and survive the first Winter and provides a base for expansion. Watching the videos was very helpful for me and I use the system regularly. I place my herbalists with a house between two "crossroads" villages. It works for me. Others will do things differently.
I don't put hunters with the others. I often put an herbalist or a gatherer with a forester, occasionally all three together.
Well, placing the four together seems like a good idea to me. Space is limited when it comes to those buildings.
Do certain buildings get a limit on the number of things they can retrieve? Are my gatherers not getting 500 food because they got 3 logs?
Foresters and gatherers have identically sized circles within which they work. Hunters have a larger radius within which they work. That means that always putting these three together causes a large overlap between the radii for hunters.
I hardly ever put herbalists in the deep forest. Workers need to reach the herbalist in order to use the herbs, and that is a long way for them to walk when they should be tending their crops or cutting firewood. It makes more sense, to me, to put the herbalists on the edge of the settled areas so they can gather in one-half of their circle, and the workers can reach them quickly. Herbs are only really consumed early in the game when one or more food types are missing from the diet of the people. Also, later on one can buy hundreds of herbs from traders.
The overlap isn't an issue if they don't interfere with one another. My herbalists are placed in the clusters closer to my main settlement areas. There don't seem to be too many visits to herbalists, and there isn't much pressure on producing herbs so I guess this would make sense of having half the circle over areas with herbs.
Quote from: snapster on October 28, 2014, 10:09:57 AM
Well, placing the four together seems like a good idea to me. Space is limited when it comes to those buildings.
Do certain buildings get a limit on the number of things they can retrieve? Are my gatherers not getting 500 food because they got 3 logs?
You can see where I put my hunters in my Quatre Bras screenshots, and also Gnaw Bone, the town before that one.
The three logs don't reduce the amount of food you got, but the gatherer hut UI panel only displays the first four different items collected in one year. If a gatherer collects some logs before collecting, say, berries, then berries will not be displayed, but that does not mean there were none collected.
Quote from: snapster on October 28, 2014, 11:19:37 AM
The overlap isn't an issue if they don't interfere with one another. My herbalists are placed in the clusters closer to my main settlement areas. There don't seem to be too many visits to herbalists, and there isn't much pressure on producing herbs so I guess this would make sense of having half the circle over areas with herbs.
Another thing people do with herbalists is to put one in town (in addition to the "working herbalist(s)" out in the woods). It will not collect much, but it does give a central location for bannies to go to use their herb. ;)
Quote from: snapster on October 28, 2014, 07:41:58 AM
Is mod code available? For editing as well? Can someone publish a mod that includes other edited mods?
Also, can a mod refer to the content of another mod in its code?
One of the posts either here or on the SRS site contains a link to the mod kit. If you are not a C++ programmer, I'd forget it. There are also some serious software requirements.
Serious software, yes, but at least some of the packages are free, and others have demos or trial versions that can be used if
@snapster just wanted to try things out.
Out of curiosity, what's the software you'd need? Aren't programs you code in free? I would never be doing any modeling or anything, by the way.
By the way x2, just getting the mod kit, if not via Steam, proved befuddling in the earliest stages, which I never passed. :) To my credit it was late and I wasn't going to do it yesterday...
Quote1. Banished Toolkit Prerequisites
The Banished toolkit requires Banished version 1.0.4 Beta or better. While the shipped game runs under Windows XP, the toolkit does not. The toolkit was developed and used under Windows 7. Other operating systems have not been heavily tested.
The toolkit requires all graphics SDKs that the game supports to properly compile shaders. At the moment DirectX 11 and DirectX 9 are required. OpenGL support will be required in new releases.
The data files from your purchased game are required.
The DirectX End User Runtime will have to be installed. You can find it here: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=35
The Visual Studio 2012 Redist is also required. It can be downloaded here: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=30679 The toolkit may be compiled with newer versions of MSVC in the future - if so you'll have to install the redist for the newer versions.
For machines (mostly laptops) that have both an Intel card and Nvidia card, make sure you set the tool and game executables to use the high powered video card, rather than the integrated one.
The game uses the font FrancophilSans. You may need it installed depending on what you are modding.
This is a direct lift from the tool kit readme file. Free is in the eye of the beholder. I should think one would be wise to have Microsoft Visual Studio for the Help files if nothing else. Student versions can be had free, I believe.
And what are the serious software requirements there, Nonny?
Quote from: snapster on October 29, 2014, 09:17:49 AM
And what are the serious software requirements there, Nonny?
Patience, grasshopper. This question was answered above.
Microsoft Visual Studio? For what specifically?
I may also have misunderstood what was meant by 'serious software' as well. I thought programs like 3dMax were being referred to, and although it and/or similar programs may have trial versions, the full versions are expensive. Since you don't have an interest in modelling, these types of programs are not needed.
Only the redistributable from Visual Studio 2012 is required, and it's a free download.
Why does my food not plummet during winter? It seems to strangely stay up. I just had a food scare with my food going down probably until harvest time. Yet during the winter it seems to have stayed near constant or too high up.
Also had a child born named Crist. One letter away from being the messiah.
It plummeted in the early spring. ??? Food hoarding?
Quote from: snapster on October 29, 2014, 11:56:51 AM
Why does my food not plummet during winter? It seems to strangely stay up. I just had a food scare with my food going down probably until harvest time. Yet during the winter it seems to have stayed near constant or too high up.
Also had a child born named Crist. One letter away from being the messiah.
It plummeted in the early spring. ??? Food hoarding?
Food gets fully stocked each time a resident visits a barn or market. That can take awhile before it dwindles and has to be resupplied. The drop happens when you have a majority of your population hit the supplies at the same time. If you have gatherers, hunters and fishers doing well, you may not see a drop.
Quote from: snapster on October 29, 2014, 09:21:26 AM
Microsoft Visual Studio? For what specifically?
Game is written using it. You might want to do something more extensive than can be done with just the run time package.
For me, it would be a serious nuisance since I'd have to run it under Linux/wine. I looked at the mod kit and decided it was too much like work. But then, I haven't done any serious coding, now, in something like 25 years.
Quote from: solarscreen on October 29, 2014, 12:07:49 PMFood gets fully stocked each time a resident visits a barn or market. That can take awhile before it dwindles and has to be resupplied. The drop happens when you have a majority of your population hit the supplies at the same time. If you have gatherers, hunters and fishers doing well, you may not see a drop.
Why not? They either visit storage before their food supplies dwindle and resupply or they don't. If food wasn't available at storage, regardless of its source, they would just go hungry. If food was available they would take it regardless of its source.
I think the basic idea behind that statement (by
@solarscreen) is that food from gatherers, hunters and fishers is pretty much year round, but from farms comes in waves. I think a lot of the death spiral is from the delay between food income from farms -- the starvation can get pretty severe while you're waiting for the harvest to come in, and as it does come in it's getting taken back out for houses just as quickly. It seems the end result is a terribly uneven redistribution of food to houses, which can feed the spiral.
If not within range of a market would people in need of clothes and tools visit markets or would they go without?
Quote from: snapster on October 29, 2014, 10:45:34 PM
If not within range of a market would people in need of clothes and tools visit markets or would they go without?
I don't think so. They can always source from a warehouse (barn).
Quote from: snapster on October 29, 2014, 10:45:34 PM
If not within range of a market would people in need of clothes and tools visit markets or would they go without?
In my experience, they go where they need to to get clothes/tools/food. If they are not in a market circle, the market probably won't be their first choice though.