World of Banished

Hello.

in wait to see how my fence project will progress (in wait for help)...

i decided to use my time to something else in wait , instead to smash my head repeately on a wall or on my keyboard ... ^^

i decided to start a new project :) i have so many in my mind. ^^


Creamery.


My idea is to expand the milk production idea. To get to that, i am planning to :

1. Will need the milk production in my Cattle:Milk MOD (Dairy MOD)
2. Make a new building called : Creamery.
3. Make a new profession called : Dairyman
4. Take the Milk ressource and turn it into : Cheese and Whey. (and maybe cream or yogurt lol)

Of course i will take the 2 MOD and make only 1 MOD with it, One mod doing everything.

5. i will keep the 3D rendered bucket of milk.
6. i will provide new lovely icons for the cheese and whey and maybe more if more items.
7. i will use the apiary building example and start from there. (update: a building for it has been made!)
8. i am planning to take a 36 milk and process it into 6 to 8 cheese or 9 to 12 whey.
9. i can give about same values as milk units requires but if educated, so a little little profit from it.

insights , ideas , thoughts , and comments are always very very welcomed :)


and on this , i am providing some screenshots from my first steps :)

(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/37_06_09_14_3_19_23.jpeg)

(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/37_06_09_14_3_19_34.jpeg)

(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/37_06_09_14_3_19_45.jpeg)

(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/37_06_09_14_3_19_56.jpeg)

as i said : insights , ideas , thoughts , and comments are always very very welcomed :)

another screenshot :)


Cheese !

It's my recollection that raw milk upon fermentation makes cheese and whey, not cheese and milk.  Churning raw milk makes butter and old-fashioned buttermilk.  Skimming raw milk makes cream and skim milk.  From cream, other things can be made.

and the milk 3.25 % called ... homogenized ?

and pasteurized ?

i guess i ll only do cheese and maybe cream, i dunno. and let the milk from as it was :P
i dunno, not getting alot of feedback ^^

Bro, I have to say, the only mod I'd really be interested in, would be to tweak the crops.

At least in the US, whole milk is 4%, then you start removing fat to make cream and butter. Then you get 2%, 1% or skim, and then non-fat.

You have to add an enzyme or an acid and bacteria to the milk to get the milk proteins to form curds and liquid whey, which is then further turned into cottage cheese if the curd if not pressed, or pressed curd is  further processed into cheese. Just fermenting milk with bacteria allows you to make yogurt.

Ruminating mammals, split hoof and 4 stomachs, have a natural enzyme in their stomachs so cheese production began maybe 8,000 years ago or so and most likely in sheep before goats and cattle.

Pasteurization is where milk is heated to a high temperature long enough to kill pathogens, mostly bacteria.  Milk lasts longer and people live longer.

About a dozen diseases can be spread by raw milk, the most serious of which is listeria which comes with a 20% mortality rate.

Family farms that practice strict clean processes can provide "safe" raw milk, but mass quantities of milk from dairies must be pasteurized.

Homogenized milk is where the fat content has been processed mechanically or chemically to reduce fat globule size so that it blends smoothly with the protein and water content.

Another process used in modern milk is standardization.  Milk is not naturally pure white and mild in flavor. Cows will eat onions and other non grass items that impart a flavor not expected in commercial milk products.  Many different dairies are mixed together and then color and flavors are processed to make the milk you find in most stores.

Quote from: solarscreen on September 06, 2014, 05:49:51 PM
At least in the US, whole milk is 4%, then you start removing fat to make cream and butter. Then you get 2%, 1% or skim, and then non-fat.

You have to add an enzyme or an acid and bacteria to the milk to get the milk proteins to form curds and liquid whey, which is then further turned into cottage cheese if the curd if not pressed, or pressed curd is  further processed into cheese. Just fermenting milk with bacteria allows you to make yogurt.

Ruminating mammals, split hoof and 4 stomachs, have a natural enzyme in their stomachs so cheese production began maybe 8,000 years ago or so and most likely in sheep before goats and cattle.

Actually, the way they do it is to remove all cream and then add it back in for 1%, 2% and 4%. Fat content in milk varies with a number of factors, including variety of cow.

but back to banished, and banished concept. what are you looking for a creamery should do, or would see to do ?

it seems the game doesnt support more than 1 goods crafted at the time. when you kill a deer a beef a sheep it can drop 2 things, but it s a drop. gatherers when they'scythe' a food in the wood , it s 1 item at the time, if they scythe an onion, they dont get 33 onion and 33 roots, no 1 at the time. Buildings have their own set of code, and you can produce 1 good at the time, but you can choose in a list what you want to do. like a tavern.

so if a creamery do many things, it will be 1 at the time and you choose from a menu.


so what you guys you want from a creamery building ?

1. cheese of course. 2. but anything else ?

i also know now, no people , or almost nobody are interested to get a creamery, i am probably the only one.
back in time people were saying... we need more buildings, we need more production chains .. but this wish is gone, i see.

i also EDIT my 1st post to reflect what people said.

Normally if you add rennet to whole milk you get cottage cheese (curds) and whey.  The whey can be returned as part of cattle fodder, the curds strained out in bags and compacted or just sold as cottage cheese with a little salt added.

To get other cheeses, specific bacteria are added.  Blue cheese is produced by injecting penecillium roquefortii into cheese rounds.  The bacterium may be found in some caves.  Otherwise ageing can produce cheese rounds for various types depending on the storage techniques.  Salt is always added as a preservative.

Quite often the environment of the storage cavern determines the type of cheese.

For Banished, I doubt if more than cottage cheese can be produced considering the rapacious appetite of the citizens.

I used to make quark by draining the whey from curds formed by the action of lactic acid on kefir, both of which were made in situ by bacteria.  I made something from my quark, by pressing and aging it, that tasted a little like cheddar cheese.  I stopped my experimentation when a second aged batch smelled like blue cheese.  Wild yeast is one thing, wild mold was another.

I am fine with a menu selection, but did you try this structure?

From cows:

ComponentDescription _rawMaterial
[
"Template/RawMaterialBeef.rsc"
"Template/RawMaterialLeather.rsc"
]

From cutting yard:

ComponentDescription _produceMaterial = "Template/RawMaterialFirewood.rsc";


Perhaps this will work:

ComponentDescription _ProduceMaterial
[
"Template/RawMaterialCheese.rsc"
"Template/RawMaterialWhey.rsc"
]

ya but still, banished environment is still simplified. we dont 'preserve' food, no cabbage can live more than a month (maybe) in a wooden barn. it s not real life

so dont ask me to make refrigators or something (for milk and things we usually put in a frigo^^ icecream etc )

i just want to add some buildings and get more finished products. so can have more buildings to make bigger downtowns and with more things than just to put a school a blacksmith a tailor and woodcutter. and housing. it s starting to be dull

I like the idea of a creamery. But I also like the idea of getting milk from cows. Is there a way to do both? Sort of like coal, you can do nothing and it'll get used by citizens, or you can select stone tools and it'll get picked up by blacksmiths. With milk, we could do nothing and let the citizens consume the milk, or select cheese production and the milk would be rounded up by the dairyman.

i tried :


ComponentDescription _rawMaterial
[
"Template/RawMaterialBeef.rsc"
"Template/RawMaterialLeather.rsc"
]


game crashed

tried :


ComponentDescription _ProduceMaterial
[
"Template/RawMaterialCheese.rsc"
"Template/RawMaterialWhey.rsc"
]


if i rememerber correctly, the compiler crashed unless i put the { } and then it was only producing the first one, if i switch them, the other one was only being produced

EDIT also need the food limit added , or it crash as the first item made.

so for the moment i have :

ConsumeProduceDescription consumeproduce
{
Product _products
[
{
ComponentDescription _produceMaterial = "Template/RawMaterialCheese.rsc";
ComponentDescription _produceMaterial = "Template/RawMaterialWhey.rsc";
ResourceLimit _resourceLimit = Food;
}
]

StringTable _stringTable = "UI/CreameryStringTable.rsc";

float _workTime = 4.0;
ToolType _toolType = Hoe;
int _workRequired = 20;
}



but only cheese is made. i need to add the blacksmith/tavern menu.

so i tried to add the scroll menu from blacksmith ....

for the moment it works at 75% ^^ the little box is empty and when you click it open a scrollbar up to the edge of the screen lol
i need to fix that lol

but....

i added in same time, the code to ask the citizens to pickup milk and do cheese / whey with it :)

that it works !!!! they do cheese with milk for the moment cause i didnt fixed my blacksmith menu thing :) so they do cheese.
it s so nice to see that working :)) i ve put a screenshot of it :)

HA ! found it. i ve got to add it manually in my string table :)

so....

this is the number i decided for the moment (what you think of those?)

with 36 Milk units (which worth 36 trade units) we can do 6 Cheese units (8 if you are educated) which worth 6 trade units each (6x6=36 but if educated 8x6=48)
with 36 Milk units (which worth 36 trade units) we can do 9 Whey units (12 if you are educated) which worth 4 trade units each (9x4=36 but if educated 12x4=48)

so a bit of profit (only if you are educated) a bit like wood versus firewood (if you buy wood and take citizen work to make firewood and resell it, you can do good profit)
here you can do a little bit, if you are educated :)


Look at Screenshot ! :)

i know about citizens point of view... they will eat cheese or drink whey like it was corn... or apples... or milk.... 1 unit each. so in fact if they eat 1 cheese unit, they in fact ate 6 milk units in 1 shot ^^

how can we give an advantage to that ?

anyone knows if we can add a + happiness to food ? or a + health ? (or both lol)

RedKetchup, I love the creamery idea (even though I'm lactose intolerant!).

It should work like the tavern, where fruit it used for brewing, but is also available for citizens to eat directly - so milk can go to the barns and markets, and some will be made into cheese and some straight into homes. Maybe cheese can be put in a healthier food category than milk to give an advantage to having it?

Cheese has long been a staple food in Europe as it keeps a lot better than milk so can be stored away and is easily portable.

Bonne chance!

yeah you have a lovely point ! a strong argument :)

IMO we should make a Bar ! and the barkeeper would go pickup some ale... and some cheese LOL and people would go to the Bar and will assist at a Cheese and Wine testing :):):)
gaining +1 happiness from Ale and +1 health from Cheese haha

Quote from: RedKetchup on September 07, 2014, 08:56:41 AM
ya but still, banished environment is still simplified. we dont 'preserve' food, no cabbage can live more than a month (maybe) in a wooden barn. it s not real life

so dont ask me to make refrigators or something (for milk and things we usually put in a frigo^^ icecream etc )

i just want to add some buildings and get more finished products. so can have more buildings to make bigger downtowns and with more things than just to put a school a blacksmith a tailor and woodcutter. and housing. it s starting to be dull

Beyond our discussion of real life, you have the right idea.

Just make the buildings, the professions, and the products and create the means and numbers based on resources and education.  Simple is better and diversity will make it fun.

yeah we can compare to real life but within stay in the game environment, Citizen aging 4-5 years per year... there isnt any real food preservation.... you can keep the starting potatoes you started with 100 years ago ....  it s a fantasy world, and a game :)


but i love so much the snack bar lunch idea  lol :) cheese and vine testing haha

i found the tavern Entertainment code in tavern

HappinessDescription happiness
{
HappinessType _happinessType = Entertainment;
bool _requireWorker = true;
bool _requireStorage = true;
RawMaterialFlags _requiredTypes = Alcohol;
int _idleRange = 3;
}

but i didnt found the herbalist thing (people picking herb and go to herbalist to make an infusion)
there is only that in the herbalist.rsc :

HealerDescription healer { }

but in DoctorHouse.rsc i found that :

HappinessDescription happiness
{
HappinessType _happinessType = Health;
bool _requireWorker = true;
int _idleRange = 5;
}



so......

HappinessType _happinessType =  Entertainment; or Health; or both? like that ? = Entertainment | Health;

so...

bool _requireWorker = true;
bool _requireStorage = true;

so...

RawMaterialFlags _requiredTypes = Alcohol; <= oops not Ale, but Alcohol ! Cheese is a food material not a group :P

so...

int _idleRange = 5; or 3; or whatever :P

I tried my idea above and Banished crashed.

yeah as i did  :-\

cant figure out to do both in same time with a pack of milk, i can only make it work like a blacksmith or a tavern, one, or the other choice.

(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/37_07_09_14_3_04_56.jpeg)

It's really pretty limiting to only be allowed to make one thing or another, eg, beeswax OR honey.  We could harvest honeycomb and process that to one or the other, but in the end that is the same choice.  I just had a bizarre image of an apiary filled with tiny Bees, which give a little honey every month and then once a year die to yield a heap of beeswax.  In between times they produce lots of young bees.  Limit is 10,000 bees to an apiary.   ;D

I thought we were discussing a creamery, but for an apriarist you don't have to kill your bees.  All you do is extract the old honey frames and insert new ones while the bees are all doped up with smoke.  Sure you get a few, but not the whole hive by any means.

Then you extract the honey in a centrifuge, which flows to the bottom and out.  The beeswax is then recovered from the extracted frames and sold as well.

Honey mixed with beeswax is also a product called 'creamed honey'.

In agriculture, remember you use every part of the pig including the squeal that you can record.  Liquified pig manure is one of the products of any hog farm.  What did you think was in those big concrete tanks?

But you do have to kill your livestock in Banished in order to obtain more than one product.  At least, I think that you do.  We got here by discussing the fact that processing can't produce more than one type of goods.   :)

so i have a big update, please be indulgent about my ......... 3D skills lol. i m so bad, terribad ^^

it looks like...... a bit ... chinese LOL

fault to have learned to make a new one... i at least learned how to modify the apiary one haha

Quote from: RedKetchup on September 07, 2014, 08:04:00 PM
so i have a big update, please be indulgent about my ......... 3D skills lol. i m so bad, terribad ^^

it looks like...... a bit ... chinese LOL

I think it looks fine  :)

Yep, frustrating that a building can only produce one thing at a time, but it'll still be worth having for the extra variety in food and buildings so keep up the good work  :D

@RedKetchup, sorry I'm late with feedback. I'm happy with a workshop that only produces cheese--maybe call it a cheesemaker (with the appropriate "Blessed are the cheesemakers" benediction from the town cleric) instead of a creamery, which usually does not make cheese at all. Much commercial whey ends up being animal feed and there is currently no use for animal feed in Banished. I'm assuming that cheese fits in with meat and nuts in the food category. The trade value should be higher than 1, maybe 2 like eggs or (my preference) 3 like meat. What have you set as the trade value of milk?

I would like to see a two-part mod that included milk and cheese production.

One thing I am finding with the increased food production mods (apiary, milk, more dense orchards, bigger pastures) is that I need fewer farms to keep people fed. I haven't decided if that is a good thing or not.

Here's a question for The Big C: If we were to do the Vegetarian Challenge now would imported cheese be allowed?

I'd be fine with a 2-part mod with milk and cheese also. Milk from cows, and we decide if we want to just keep the milk for the citizens, or send it to the cheesemaker/creamery for cheese production. To me, trade value of milk would be 2 and cheese would be 3. But that's just off the top of my head.

the 2 MODs have been merged already. but you still keep the old one and put it safe somewhere.

the new one, v 2.0 will have everything :

milk from cow 1 trade value. 32 milk units per drop.
new profession: dairyman.
new building : creamery.  it has his own building (started from apiary, deleted alot of things, moved things around, bigger building... but a bit same look and same colors, but different)
2 new food ressources via crafting window selector:
- cheese : cost 36 milk units for 6 cheese units (8 if educated) and has a 6 trade units value.
- whey : cost 36 milk units for 9 whey units (12 if educated) and has a 4 trade unites value.

nothing obligates you to make the building and just keep the milk running.

the problem with 2 mods different, is you get an overide/conflict ressources from both mods, works well since the same ressource is exactly same code, same moddler, but still have the game warning you that you have mods in conflicts. you cant compile the creamery if you dont add the milk to it. and you cant compile the cattle: milk if you dont add the milk to it, so conflict ^^ <= RED Color warning.

it s almost done. just need to make the 3D animation for the cheese and whey (.fbx) and i m done. about the whey i ll use same as milk though it has its own icon. but need to do cheese, it will probable the same bucket as usual in the game, but orange-cheese color :)

Sounds good! I will likely try this one (5000 first though). ;)

screenshot  before i go to bed :

New Creamery building (final) and 2 buckets of cheese on the ground waiting to be picked up :)

Sorry Red ketchup that I haven't delivered any feedback yet on your work. Was a bit lazy to write but mainly it is because I am not yet so sure what I feel about the mods generally and also specially about this one.  When I ask myself the question; What kind of mod do you want to play? (Until now I have only tried your balanced honey maker and the Adam and Eve start), I don´t really know. 

As I follow your reports it is obvious  that your ambition is to keep the game balanced. Your mods (opposite to most others) are not supposed to make the game in any way easier. That´s great!

I also see you put much effort on design, also good. Any new building/resource/product should fit in the original design. (Some original buildings are perhaps not perfect on this aspect. I almost never build boardinghouses because I find them too big and ugly)

Now to the difficult question: Does the mod bring any "new value" to the game? (Other than looking nice). I think milk does. When I build pastures, I prefer sheep, because of the wool, that is delivered from the first sheep and (as far as I have noticed) when the pasture is full, it delivers as much meat as a pasture with cattle, of the same size. Milk will make cattle as interesting as sheep! Seems to be a mod I could use.

What about the creamery? There was some discussion about if the cream makes people happier/healthier......I haven´t understood if it does in your final-version. I think this is the main-issue about these production-chains;

Has the products any value?

Why do I spoil 36 milk for 6 cheese, if the cheese has the same food value as the milk? Even with 1milk 1 cheese; Why should I spend building materials and manpower for the logistics on a building that doesn´t bring anything more than a nice look? OK, You talk about a trade- value.

BUT,

Banished has one (or maybe two) unbalanced things, and that is trading with ale (and wood) against food. If the brewery had been a mod; I would have said this is unbalanced, I would not use a small building where 1 person produces 400-500 ale each year worth 8 food-units to a cost of 3 which brings 2000-2500 food by trade. (Wood is similar at least by the general goods tradesmen). Sorry, but I don´t think that your cheese can compete with that.

Maybe together with a mod that balances the ale/(wood)production.

Sorry if I am not so enthusiastic as your effort deserves, but I want to be honest and this is my opinion. 

thanks you for your reply :) very appreciated.

you are totally right about personally, i really dont want to make the game as easier than it is presently, and i am trying hard to keep it under control :) to keep it balanced :)


as the difficult question : what does my MOD brings to the game ? yes milk bring something, people are only getting sheep and milk to cow help to restore the balance, without bringing 5000 milk per pasture, it brings just a little bit (500 to 1000 milk from an half 10x20 to a full big 20x20) and you can do something with this milk.

even if i just lowered the amount of milk required to make cheese and whey (from 36 to 32) it s far to compete the +266.66% value of ale, such OP. no way i want to do that. yes you are right, thats unbalance. but ale hasnt been made to be selfishly seized by the gamer at all cost and be sold, it s meant to be gave to citizens to get some happiness back. we are often ruling our citizens as a dictator ^^

to your question: will it make people more happier/healthier and will it make the final cut or not ? I was hoping but i still didnt figured it out if it can be made. so it s not decided yet.


why would you spoil 32 milk for 6 to 8 cheese units (8 if educated) and why to spent manpower and logistics ? Personally i wish to bring new building cause i am really sick to always have only the 3-4 same building all the time , all around the map. i wish more building, more diversification, more things that make town : a town! not make an OP trade value.

so ya, the main reason is more buildings, more different things. and personally, i want to see things i made into my games, and be proud of it when i see those :)
and i have other plans too :)

Quote from: Nilla on September 09, 2014, 03:26:48 AM
Banished has one (or maybe two) unbalanced things, and that is trading with ale (and wood) against food. If the brewery had been a mod; I would have said this is unbalanced, I would not use a small building where 1 person produces 400-500 ale each year worth 8 food-units to a cost of 3 which brings 2000-2500 food by trade.

Historically good ale and beer were quite valuable trade items. The city of Einbeck had such a good reputation for its beer in the later Medieval and Reformation eras that it had to send armed troops with its inter-city beer wagons to keep them from being stolen. The Elector of Saxony gave Martin Luther a cask of Einbeck beer as a wedding present to show his high regard (Luther's wife, Katie, later opened a brewery to help support the family and got good prices for her beer). Of course anyone can make bad beer (I know as I've done it a few times myself before I learned how to do it properly), but good beer has always brought high prices. Even today people much pay more for Pilsner Urquell than for Old Milwaukee. And certainly here in Waterloo County, Ontario, Canada, good beer is much, much more expensive per unit than firewood.

I'm assuming that our Banished brewers are making decent ale. Perhaps someone could mod the brewery to use more workers, but 400-500 units of ale per brewer per year does not seem all that excessive.

@RedKetchup, I want to have more variety in buildings to enhance the look of my towns, too. There are not enough various buildings. I have also stated I would like smaller iterations of existing buildings, such as school and church. A University could be really cool too, with graduates becoming even more efficient workers! A new market would be great, such a mod already exists, but it uses the same building as the tavern, and thus offers no variety to the "look" of the town. I would even like to see just some of the same old buildings but with new skins.
But back to your creamery. Is there a way to make it so that "dairy" is a new required food, so that without it you do not have full health and happiness? The degree of difficulty would then be increased, as well, satisfying those who do not want an easier game.
As far as making the cheese into a viable trade product, I don't see the problem with that, as long as it is not over the top. If we did not have the ability to have some decent trade items, what would be the purpose of trade after the first few years when you need certain seeds and livestock?

do people prefer i put 24 milk for 8 cheese(at 6 value = 48 trade units) and 24 milk for 12 whey (at 4 value = 48 trade units) ? so we can make a 100% profit ? (ale has 266.66%)

sorry @Bobbi i didnt see your reply, maybe done as i posted, or didnt see there was another page.

to your question.. i dont know if it s possible. maybe. it needs reflexion :)

in my last tests i added a new type kind , a new flag: QualityGoods and i gave my cheese material this flag (along with edible | protein) and i tried to ask the creamery to act a bit like a tavern. i was hoping people would also take 1 cheese and eat it at creamery like people do at tavern

didnt worked, nothing seems happening. :S


does anyone noticed if tavern really work as intendent ? when a Citizen take an ale at tavern, does he really get a +1 or a + 1/2 star ? or it s there only to waste your ale with a worthless behavior ?

"...32 milk units per drop...."

Can you please explain one more time what a "drop" is?

Quote from: RedKetchup on September 09, 2014, 09:43:22 AM
does anyone noticed if tavern really work as intendent ? when a Citizen take an ale at tavern, does he really get a +1 or a + 1/2 star ? or it s there only to waste your ale with a worthless behavior ?

I think it increases happiness just by being there, regardless of whether anyone gets any ale or not.

Quote from: irrelevant on September 09, 2014, 09:53:40 AM
"...32 milk units per drop...."

Can you please explain one more time what a "drop" is?

each time a milk ressource 'appear' in the pasture (like wool for sheep or eggs for chicken) there is an amount associated with. so when 'it pops' and you get something.  here, it is 32 units of milk that drop on the ground, beneath the animal shelter of the pasture. a Citizen go pick it up and there is 32 milks units inside the bucket.


probably the expression "drop" comes from certain games. when you kill something, it "drops" a loot, a reward. and it "drops" on the ground, where the oppenent was. i think thats the origin of 'drop' 'dropping' ^^

And what is the normal frequency of a drop? Times per year per how many cattle?

Quote from: irrelevant on September 09, 2014, 10:41:33 AM
And what is the normal frequency of a drop? Times per year per how many cattle?

i dunno it s random, sometimes another one drop faster than another time, and sometime one drop slower than another time.

around 500 milk per year total for a 10x20 (10 cows), seems to get a bit more than double than that in a 20x20 (20 cows) like 1400.


gimme test to do:

say the XX per XX with how many herdmen . and i ll do 2 full year and post the screenshot.

That would be great, thanks. Say a 10x20 with ten cattle and one herdsman, that's pretty vanilla.

in wait of your reply i did 9-10 years at 20x20x 2 herdmen.

year1 : 8 to 8 cows : 3/4Y : 432 milk
year2 : 8 to 13 cows: 1year : 768 milk
year3 : 13to18 cows: 1year : 1120 milk
year4 : 18to20 cows: 1year : 1504 milk 18 leather 600 beef
year5 : 20to20 cows: 1year : 1600 milk 30 leather 1000 beef
year6 : 20to20 cows: 1year : 1568 milk 30 leather 1000 beef
year7 : 20to20 cows: 1year : 1536 milk 18 leather 600 beef
year8 : 20to20 cows: 1year : 1568 milk 12 leather 400 beef
year9 : 20to20 cows: 1year : 1600 milk 42 leather 1400 beef

going to make sammiches and i ll run same for a 10x20x1worker

So a "drop" seems to occur at a random interval of time that is centered on some constant value.

alright your test : 10x20 x1 worker :

year1 : 8 to 8 cows : 3/4Y : 320 milk
year2 : 8 to 10 cows: 1year : 704 milk 12 leather 400 beef
year3 : 10to10 cows: 1year : 832 milk 24 leather 800 beef
year4 : 10to10 cows: 1year : 800 milk 12 leather 400 beef
year5 : 10to10 cows: 1year : 800 milk 30 leather 1000 beef
year6 : 10to10 cows: 1year : 768 milk 12 leather 400 beef
year7 : 10to10 cows: 1year : 832 milk 18 leather 600 beef
year8 : 10to10 cows: 1year : 768 milk 18 leather 600 beef

so the numbers at 32 milk per drop seems 1600 for 20x20 and 800 for a 10x20. around 80 milk per head

at little school they teached us to make crossed multiplications, algebrea
if i put back to 24 per drop :

x=1600x24 / 32 , so 1200 for a 20x20 and
x=800x24 / 32 , so 600 for a 10x20


Now, since i passed some time on that :)
i want you to comment those numbers
and i ask you to tell me if those number are good ? too many? not enough ?

i want a 3-4 sentences from you at, least, for your comments :)

I will comment later this evening, just now I am getting ready to drive home from work =]

k :) i m counting on you  :P  ;D

from the screenshot about a 20x20 feeding a full staff 2 worker Creamery :

i ve got as numbers : 272, 272, 272, 248, 264, 224, 248 cheese units. looks like the 20x20 wasnt enough to full time the creamery, it would have took another 10x20, i think.

so, should I put only 1 worker ? or keep it up at 2  workers?

whats about those numbers ? it sells for 6 trade unit, and if you place a special order on those, they sell it to you at 7 trade units each.

I think you should keep it at two workers. Between the two of them they should be able to keep the cream flowing. I think those numbers seem logical.

And I love the creamery building!

alright, comments appreciated @mellowtraumatic thanks you.

and BTW , Welcome on World of Banished Forums :)

Thank you. I'm glad to be here!  ;D

I think i prefer the lover alternative. Here are my arguments:
Let us compare with crop fields:
It is maybe not directly comparable: Fields produce full the first year, pastures need a couple of years (advantage fields). Fields are dependent on the wheatear, pastures not (advantage pasture). But I think it is still the best we have.
1 field 10*10 gives about 700 food with at least 1 worker (good whether). 2 fields 1400.
The same area pasture 10*20, 1 worker gives as average about 600 meat and the milk. 800 milk would give about the same amount of food as the field, with less worker (and the leather as bonus) I think that is too much. 600 or maybe even a little less, would make it more comparable with fields. 

About the creamery; Have you tested the difference of production between 1 and 2 workers? And besides I think it is OK that you need more than 1 big pasture to deliver milk to it. I suppose the people will also drink some of the milk even if you don´t like to, so there got to be several pastures.

thanks you @Nilla :) your comments are very appreciated :)

crops has a 7 food per 1x1 :)

QuoteHistorically good ale and beer were quite valuable trade items. The city of Einbeck had such a good reputation for its beer in the later Medieval and Reformation eras that it had to send armed troops with its inter-city beer wagons to keep them from being stolen. The Elector of Saxony gave Martin Luther a cask of Einbeck beer as a wedding present to show his high regard (Luther's wife, Katie, later opened a brewery to help support the family and got good prices for her beer). Of course anyone can make bad beer (I know as I've done it a few times myself before I learned how to do it properly), but good beer has always brought high prices. Even today people much pay more for Pilsner Urquell than for Old Milwaukee. And certainly here in Waterloo County, Ontario, Canada, good beer is much, much more expensive per unit than firewood.

I value a good beer too. OK, I am Swedish but i have lived 15 years in Bavaria Germany and they really know how to make beer (every community still have its own brewery, at least they had in the 1980-1990-ies, as I lived there). Although I prefer a north German pils, I sometimes make Ale in Banished from wheat (not economic, I know), just for the fun of making Bavarian Weissbeer. (high fermented beer from wheat, very popular in southern Germany)

@RedKetchup

So it looks like 10 cattle on a 10x20 produce on average 19 leather and 633 beef. This has a total Trade Value (TV) of 2184 (assuming the leather was made into hide coats).

Extrapolating from two years' data from my 21 10x16 sheep pastures (each with 10 sheep), on the same 10x20 space, you would have 12 sheep that would produce 45 wool and 675 mutton, with a total of 2700 TV. So in terms of sheer TV per area, sheep are superior to cattle by 516 TV, about 24%.

So it would be reasonable to add a minimum of at least that much TV to the output of one 10x20 cattle pasture. If you produced 516 milk you could sell the milk for 516 TV, or consume it, or turn it into cheese, therefore adding additional value. How much milk you want to produce is determined by whether you just want to put cattle on par with sheep, or you wish to make them more desirable. More desirable would make sense, since they cost more and grow more slowly.

Regarding producing both cheese and whey at the creamery, I'm not sure that this choice really makes sense. Two different products using the same single input, having the same total TV, deciding which one to produce is a coin toss.

I'm impressed, however, by the fact that you figured out how to do it! Do you think you could figure out how to make one of the outputs have two inputs (milk plus something else?), similar to warm coats or steel tools?

yes , like milk + cacao = chocolate milk :)

milk plus fruit = yogurt or kefir

ya but fruit is really general, the game needs to be more precise, like the tavern. ale but ale which each one ?
ale with apple ? ale with peach ? ale with berries ? gotcha ?

it would become: milk+apple, milk+peach, milk+pear....

berries

or honey!

yes i could do a: yogurt = milk + berries

how many milk ? how many berries ? and would give how many yogurt ?
and how they worth ?

or honey

What's honey sell for? An apiary produces scads of it, right?

1 milk + 1 berry = 2 yogurt/kefir, each sells for 2? 3? 3.

honey worth 1

So, either or. 1 Milk + 1 Honey = 2 Kefir, sells for 2 or 3 each. You should use honey, make your mod into a bundle, both of them (creamery and apiary) together.

k, i ll check that after raid, and will comeback on this to you.

1 milk + 1 berry = 2 yogurt, each sells for 3


but if i take 12 milk, and 12 berries = 24 yogurt which sell for 3 then 24*3= 72

so it means 300% profit. thats more and worst than ale.

if take 12 milk and 12 berries = 18 yogurt at 3 each = 54 trade units , it means ... ?? profit. sorry head in a fog , cant count  ^^

Quote from: RedKetchup on September 09, 2014, 06:46:26 PM
1 milk + 1 berry = 2 yogurt, each sells for 3


but if i take 12 milk, and 12 berries = 24 yogurt which sell for 3 then 24*3= 72

so it means 300% profit. thats more and worst than ale.

if take 12 milk and 12 berries = 18 yogurt at 3 each = 54 trade units , it means ... ?? profit. sorry head in a fog , cant count  ^^

1 berry is worth 1
if milk is worth 2, then 1 milk = 2
if yogurt is worth 3, then 2 yogurts are worth 6
3 => 6 is only 100% profit.  This is true even if you multiply everything by 12.

alright world of warcraft raid is over.

3 fruits = 3x1 = 3 and ale sell for 8 so if i catched correctly... if cost 3 and if sell 6 = 100% profit , at 8 = 166.67% profit

milk worth 1 now.

24 milk = 24x1=24 and we do 8 cheese which sell 6 each so 8x6= 48 so 100% profit
24 milk = 24x1=24 and we do 12 whey which sell 4 each so 12x4= 48 so 100% profit

12 milk = 12x1=12 plus 12 berries = 12x1=12 so cost 24 and we do 24 yogurt at 3 each = 72 so 200% profit , too much
if cost 24 and we only do like 18 and 18 yogurt at 3 each = 54 so 133% profit. thats it s fine.

alright, adding the yogurt at 3 trade value, making it s animations and i ll wrap all that and release :)
cost 24 milk and we do 18 yogurt.

alright, just finished to add Yogurt to the game :)

i just compiled, it passed at 1st try :)

lets see in game how it looks like :)

gah, my yogurt doesnt appear in my menu :(

too tired tonight, i certainly forgot a little stupid thing and cant see. too tired.

i ll check that tommorow after sleep

QuoteSo, either or. 1 Milk + 1 Honey = 2 Kefir, sells for 2 or 3 each. You should use honey, make your mod into a bundle, both of them (creamery and apiary) together.

yes, good idea! i would like to see it as a package, too.

I don´t know how hard it is to make, but it seems that people do like more different buildings (me too by the way). One producing cheese/(whey) another one a bit different looking, producing yogurt. And perhaps a third one making butter. Everything in one package. Sure if you have them all, they will all compete for the milk (together with the people who want to drink it pure). I tricky thing to manage, I am sure. 

I would really love that!  ;D

One more thing I thought about;

These trade-profit in %. It is not the only thing to consider; You must also count the yearly production. A product with a high % profit, but a low yearly production (say clothing) brings less than another product with a lover % profit and a high production. If you understand what I mean. 

Who said balancing was easy ;)

the problem nilla is there : make different looking buildings.

i never succeded yet to make a new 3D building, i dunno what i m missing, not doing correctly, but the game refuse my 3Ds. the only thing i can do is taking the apiary and modify it a bit. taking some things around, delete some items, move them, turn them , make them bigger, or smaller. i cant even change any color, any texture. i tried to ask help to @graphite , i sent him a PM and .. i dunno if he read it or not.... i never saw him back online since a week, like if disappeared  :-[

and modify the apiary and move things around takes alot of time :)
you ll have to suffer and accept the same looking building for a while ^^ . do 1 for cheese , do 1 for whey, do 1 with yogurt, but will have all same look lol, just turn them around ^^


btw. screenshot !
(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/37_10_09_14_10_05_41.jpeg)

another screenshot. everything seems ok, i just need to remake a new test for like.... 10 years long to see if no bugs and if everything is as expected. :)

(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/37_10_09_14_10_49_51.jpeg)

my mod is rdy now :) and posted :)

btw, last second change: i rename whey to cream. i dunno personally, i ve checked wiki about whey and it never happended to buy that at grocery store :P but i did often bought some cream :) so i really prefered personally to see cream in the game instead of whey. sorry.

great
I will try that tomorrow
and tell you what I think about it, (if you like it or not  ;) )

Quote from: RedKetchup on September 10, 2014, 02:06:11 PM
btw, last second change: i rename whey to cream. i dunno personally, i ve checked wiki about whey and it never happended to buy that at grocery store :P but i did often bought some cream :) so i really prefered personally to see cream in the game instead of whey. sorry.

Whey is sold powdered for muscle-building, I believe, or added to animal feed.  It is a by-product of cheese-making.  Cream is sold for consumption fresh and tastes much better.   :)

ah thats explain everything ! glad i made the change before release :)

This looks totally delicious  :P

Can't wait to play this mod... right now I'm still playing the milk mod, first time I built an economy on cattle - never really appealed to me, but now with milk added it's great fun... profitable, too  ;)

And now there are even more goods, plus a building... thanks a lot!

yeah but since i did my work backward.... sorry ^^ bah you can have problems if you try to load an old save of milk with this new version :( it can crash. i realized it too late. will know for next time :)

i merged my milk inside my creamery instead to do the opposite ^^ merged and added my creamery inside my milk MOD :P

Quote from: RedKetchup on September 11, 2014, 04:18:28 AMyou can have problems if you try to load an old save of milk with this new version

Oh well, I'm already staying away from old saves (with any mod)... I just finish a tile with my current selection of mods and then start a new game with the new stuff... I'm not yet at the point where I become really attached to a particular town, there is still so much trial and error anyway.

So closure comes easily...  ;)

So, now I have tested your creamery. Downloaded it and tried it on an old game with a lot of pastures, with cows.

Good news: no crash, cows in the old pastures produce milk - much milk , creamery looks nice, icons look nice

Bad news: Something is wrong about your dairymen :(

I made some pictures to explain:

I built 5 creameries on different parts of the map, 2 for cheese, 2 for yogurt and 1 for cream. they where finished in winter/early spring 69-70.

First picture, production after ½ year.  You can see there are plenty of milk in store so that is not the reason, as I looked there was milk in the markets close to the plants. So what have the dairymen bin making all summer? Answer second picture; collecting all kind of stuff they need or not need.

I went on another couple of years, see the other pictures. The same result; very low production, all kind of stuff in the creamery, mostly also milk (and berries). I built a honey maker(your latest version) to see if it was the same thing there, but it wasn´t, seems to work normal.

I have a theory; the dairymen think they are mainly common laborers, collecting all stuff they can, carrying it to their workplaces. Only if there is nothing else to do, they might produce some milk-products. I don´t know if this problem only occurs on games started without the mod. I will run my game a little longer and try to keep a close eye on the dairymen, then I will start a new game and see if they act differently. 

Edit: Now I have watched my dairymen more closely, my theory was wrong. There seems to be nothing wrong with the dairymen, they don´t carry the stuff to their workplace themselves; For some reason, other people use the creamery as a barn!?!? They carry all kind of food in there, this seems to trouble the dairymen, so first of all they carry this stuff away(to the closest market/barn). If there is nothing else there but milk (and berries if they are supposed to make yogurt) they produce fine.

I will now start a new game to see if they act the same way there, or if this strange things only happens in games started without the mod.

.......to be continued......

ya, the windmill bakery moddler has the same trouble. people put stuff in it like if is the closest storage place  available, and the dairyman spend some time to take out this stuff and put it where is should : barns.

the surprising thing is we use same model as tavern and citizens dont react the same toward taverns. i have a couple of ideas.... and when i ll have a test file to try ... i ll send it to you.

OK, glad to hear that you don´t really need my report from the new game.

Here it is anyhow; first year everything was fine, second year they started to put food there from the harvest. Barn wasn´t full. I can understand that the farmer from the cornfield left his corn in the creamery, it is closer, but the pepper??(field empty on the picture) It is directly beside the barn.

and......

I would have bin surprised if you haven´t had any ideas to solve the problem.  ;D

i am still trying to figure out :)

they are so silly. i am presently testing another build, and tryig to find some fixes.

presently, it happends very less often that they put random stuff in its storage, but still not as perfect as tavern.

i built a tavern next to it, bah not that far, an house between. so i can keep an eye on both in same time.
and i am running at 1x LOL. and checking everyone who enters the creamery ^^
2 things:

probably both happening in the 2 different builds :

the brewer (he is very silly lol) he is stealing the creamery berries lol, and the dairyman need to go pickup some more, but him, more clever, he doesnt go steal the tavern berries lol

2nd thing, i noticed many people, bah some, when they search to gathering food for their house, they go steal some : berries and milk and yogurt from the creamery. and the dairyman go back pickup more milk and more berries from the barn.

they are clowns.

:D Clowns yes

I don´t know but there is a main difference to the brewery and other buildings; The people are going to the brewery to get their ale. All other stuff they get at the market, except ale. If you have used the brewery as basic for your creamery, you must have made some changes here, because the cheese are delivered to the market. Maybe something went wrong there?

I bin confident; you will find the bug :)

yeah i made some changes so they are delivered. we found out, i dunno if you noticed also, ale seems to strickly serves nothing. people take an ale and 'use' it at the tavern, but did you ever happended to check closely and really see a + star or +1/2 star ?

i tried at my beginning to make similar so people go to the creamery and eat a yogurt or a cheese and .... get an +1 hearth or +1/2 hearth like with herbs.... but didnt find out. and there is nothing about 'herbalist' and 'herbs' nothing in the code. like if hard coded directy in the game.

so i dont want the dairy products stay there, i want them going in barns, and try to catch them if we want to sell it before it goes in the houses ^^

The brewery isn't the right model, the blacksmith and the tailor are the right models. Multiple inputs, no storage of other resources.

i know, but even the tavern use some code from the blacksmith, and this is also how i do. but i think i m getting some ideas :) i ll try to take out the "edible" and try to put just "milk" "berries" to see if it accept my parameters :)

wood is fine, cause wood is wood, same as iron ad stone, it s a class apart. food is food, there is some proteins, vegs fruits etc... but i ll try to see if it can accept only "milk""berries" :)

nop, i tried "milk" and "blueberries' it compiles but the dairyman is runing back and forth with his milk bucket. he grabs milk from barn, go at creamery, cant see if allowed to put that there , go back to put milk in the barn ^^ and so on

Quoteyeah i made some changes so they are delivered. we found out, i dunno if you noticed also, ale seems to strickly serves nothing. people take an ale and 'use' it at the tavern, but did you ever happended to check closely and really see a + star or +1/2 star ?

i tried at my beginning to make similar so people go to the creamery and eat a yogurt or a cheese and .... get an +1 hearth or +1/2 hearth like with herbs.... but didnt find out. and there is nothing about 'herbalist' and 'herbs' nothing in the code. like if hard coded directy in the game.

so i dont want the dairy products stay there, i want them going in barns, and try to catch them if we want to sell it before it goes in the houses ^^

No I havn´t seen any improvement on the happiness neither.

I didn´t mean that the diary products should stay in the dairy, of cause they should be delivered to the markets. But the problems seems to be in that change. Have you tried to change the brewery, that ale is delivered to the markets? I don´t mean that it should be anew mod. Just to get closer to the problem, to see if it also becomes a "small barn".?

sorry yesterday i ve got to work on a crash boat fix MOD. and since i was really tired , i lost like 4 hrs cause 1 word somewhere at top of a file i never saw. i lost 4 hrs to not understand why it doesnt want to package.

and i slept all last night, up to 830am. gonna check my code today.

alright.
i think a good night of sleep change things around and is very beneficial :)
i feel today more efficient and more... professionnal ROFL.

Creamery Dairy Products is now final ! :) i fixed everything around :) citizens will most likely totally stop to put random things inside the Creamery building now :)
the dairyman crew will be more efficient :)

keep in mind, always better to remove old creamery in a saved game and rebuild a new one to be sure changes are applied to the creamery buildings.


Changelog:

2.2
Changed the way the creamery storage works so citizens will most likely stop and rarely put random stuff inside the creamery. More efficient work time for the dairymen.

2.1
Added a fix about General Goods merchant boat crashing while arriving at a trading post causing an overflow with all these new resources.

Seems I was right again  ;)

QuoteI bin confident; you will find the bug

I will try the new version tonight and tell you what I think about it.

sweet, i m counting on you :)

Quote from: RedKetchup on September 12, 2014, 08:47:38 AM
Creamery Dairy Products is now final ! :) i fixed everything around :) citizens will most likely totally stop to put random things inside the Creamery building now :)
the dairyman crew will be more efficient :)

You gave the dairyman a shotgun and told him to drive away all interlopers?  ;D

hahaha yeah, i think they got scared i make a new building : The Guillotine !

haha

 :)  :)
Look at this!
No irrelevant ( ;D) food in the creamery.

I tested it in a game where I already had a lot of cattle.
I made 6 creamery-plants, 2 for each products, 1 and 2 workers to compare. You can see the output (year 2 and 3 after I built them)
Unfortunately I built 2 at the same market. i think it is not to recommend if you want a high productivity. 1 is better. As you can see I had a lot of milk, but not always at the market.

I am not so sure about the input; how much milk/berries you need for each product. But if you only count the trading value from the output; yogurt, with the high productivity, has a much higher trading value, than the other products. It is OK if yogurt has a bit higher trading value, you need milk and berries to produce it, but if you only count the trading value from one plant, not considering the input; (in my example; cheese has a value of about 1200, cream 900 and yogurt 4000, if I use 2 workers) the difference is too big.

By the way; I ordered milk from the general goods tradesman and sold the products; no problem :) 

ok, thanks you alot for testing.

it is normal that yogurt worth more overall cause it takes 2 resources, milk and berries.
and it s also set that :

cheese = 100% profit
cream = 100% profit
Yogurt = 133% profit

and we cant change the time required for each kind of food individually, it s all base 10. what i would need to do maybe...

is double or triple the amount of milk required for cheese/cream and get double or triple amount of cheese/cream made with it
so the produce more items with the same base matter time. i see...

but it still strange cause with the base time 10 they should get:

8 cheese
12 cream

and 18 yogurt.

thats not alot
you should get cheese just below 50% of yogurt

can you do something ?

move yogurt where is cheese, cheese where is cream and cream where is yogurt and see if the number are the same.

oh i see ..... at the end i changed

Cheese : http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/37_10_09_14_12_24_20.png

With 12 milk units you can produce from 3 to 4 cheese units. A cheese unit is more pricely than ordinary food and worth 6 trade units to merchants.


Cream : http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/37_10_09_14_12_56_49.png

With 12 milk units you can produce from 4 to 6 cream units. A cream unit is more pricely than ordinary food and worth 4 trade units to merchants.


Yogurt : http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/37_10_09_14_12_58_54.png

With 12 milk units and 12 berries units you can produce from 12 to 18 yogurt units. A yogurt unit is more pricely than ordinary food and worth 3 trade units to merchants.



so i would need to put : 24 milk for 6 to 8 cheese, 24 milks for 8 to 12 cream and keep yogurt at 12 to 18.

Quotemove yogurt where is cheese, cheese where is cream and cream where is yogurt and see if the number are the same.

I can do that
I can also build a couple of more plants alone on each one market, than we have even more material to compare.

so I have changed products, built some new creameries and closed some so that there was only 1 on each market.

result; cheese about the same, cream a bit more, yogurt a bit less

The problems with yogurt is definitely the berries! If you have enough milk, it will be well distributed to all markets. Since I closed some creameries and only have one on each market, there are always milk, but berries seems a bit strange; I had a lot of berries. At some markets there was a lot ( I saw almost 2000) at others nothing or almost nothing (also on markets with no yogurt).

numbers are kinda a bit different. but still i agree, i should double the milk and crafted product. so the crafting time working doesnt play that much