So, let's talk about it here :P
The food markets with flag limits for each foodtype (protein, grain, fruit, veggie) get each type of food for a balanced diet. However, they get filled up with flour and other non-edibles which caused stuff like grain to be missing in their diet (flour inedible), so i need a baker in each area with a market like this to keep getting edible grains in it and take the inedible grains out. Same with vegetables and the veggie cleaner.. Not really what i want in my industry and foresting clusters.
The edibles food market stores everything nearby.. Doesnt care about foodtypes so it doesnt give a balanced diet.
The special food stands.. The bannies only take food from 1 market. So they will only have one foodtype in their house. No balanced diet.
So, maybe don't have inedible food at all? And flag it as misc? Or make an inedible flag and put it all there + an inedible market stand?
Quote from: Kyana on October 15, 2018, 06:41:17 AM
The edibles food market stores everything nearby.. Doesnt care about foodtypes so it doesnt give a balanced.
oh yes they can do !!!!
enable to store : only edible
market distribution: grain 24%, vegts 25%, fruits 25%, proteins 25%.
and you have a good market. no non-edible allowed, empty space can't be filled by other flags.
Quote from: RedKetchup on October 15, 2018, 06:51:16 AM
Quote from: Kyana on October 15, 2018, 06:41:17 AM
The edibles food market stores everything nearby.. Doesnt care about foodtypes so it doesnt give a balanced.
oh yes they can do !!!!
enable to store : only edible
market distribution: grain 24%, vegts 25%, fruits 25%, proteins 25%.
and you have a good market. no non-edible allowed, empty space can't be filled by other flags.
So are there markets with those specs? And a nice big range that covers a large area? My markets are almost completely filled with non-edible stuff.
If even someone from Holland says tulips are no food then you can be sure. ;D
My question to this topic: Does this market setup work in game with normal distribution of all food types but only edible resources allowed to store? Sounds like the best solution but what happens if the vendor tries to store grain without food flag? Can't store bug which we know from other cases or they just don't try this?
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on October 15, 2018, 07:15:37 AM
My question to this topic: Does this market setup work in game with normal distribution of all food types but only edible resources allowed to store? Sounds like the best solution but what happens if the vendor tries to store grain without food flag? Can't store bug which we know from other cases or they just don't try this?
they go with what they are allowed to store, and then they check their %. they cannot go try to pickup flour unless flour has edible.
Quote from: purringcat on October 15, 2018, 07:03:52 AM
So are there markets with those specs? And a nice big range that covers a large area? My markets are almost completely filled with non-edible stuff.
there are certainly some....
in RKEC 1.2 my grocery stores (corner and straight) will have this. i made the change today (they have in 1.11 all other 4 flags allowing non-edible grain for example)
but in my mod also, my flour is edible + grain ^^
Here the link where some of the market problems were discussed and give a good indication why some markets are coded in a certain way.
It most had to do with the non edible part of flour.
Bannies took it home to eat as it was flagged edible so it was hurting the bakery chain so some asked it to be made non edible but this resulted in some markets/storage issues.
As I said in the other thread lots of stuff we did not know at the time it had downsides too and discovered those over time.
Now many want the flour to be edible again but then some going to argue it will hurt the bakery chain because bannies will take some home to eat and we are back at how it all started in the first place. :)
http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1005.msg18786#msg18786
Yes, for this edible/inedible flour discussion there is no clear yes or no. Both ways have there disadvantages.
To keep inedible grains and so on away from markets would be really nice because I would like to use these hidden flags to handle things like flax etc. In this case as (inedible) vegetable. I tried the mentioned setup right now but unfortunately it does not work. Vendors try to get also inedible vegetables but run into this bug because they can't store it. Look at the screen.. The same would happen with inedible flour.
Embx: then let them produce more flour..
But also i have the "vegetable" crop, which is inedible.
And stuff for sugar refinery.
RK what market is this i have been looking forever to find one like that, only edibles and every food type equally in it without inedibles and no problems with vendors trying to get inedibles to it anyway.
Because they pick up grains veggie protein and fruit, some edible some not because it has 2 flags and some dont have 2 flags like inedible flour (grain). Then they try get grain to the market (flour) but then they find out its not edible so they can't store it in the market.
And no we don't eat tullips in holland... only for decoration. Never said you can't eat it but never heard of such a thing. + the cropfields produce way less tullips and violets then from other seeds, so its hard for my perfumery industry.
Tom, flax is textile not vegetable
The RKEC, does it have a food market only? I dont want to have other items in it. And can i download it seperate? I use MM8 and i want tot keep the mods in it :P probably cant because of the flags in mm8...
What i really want to keep is the mods from KID and RK
remember inedible also means the bannies can not eat it at all.say a merchant brings you flour and you are starving.you buy the flour ,but still starve. if all food was inedible until it is processed,the poor bannies would starve in the beginning of games.that is the main problem with the inedible idea.
i have not seen a market have issues with storing inedible foods. there are 3 that i have depending on mod order. maple sap,vegetables,flour.it maybe more than that if you count sugar. i have only seen 3 markets get sruck in loops. KID's colonial provision store,this 1 was fixed.the old emporium and the 1.06 original DS cart mods.these 2 are the exceptions that may have some inedible issues.all other 1.06 market mods work.
markets do have an order to how they are stocked.if the market was coded meat 1st and venison was near by or fish,it could look like it filled up on meat.the vendor might take longer to locate the grain and fruit. if it was coded to load grain,fruit,veggy,and then meat and was near a mill,it would load flour before the others.since normally the deer would be way out in a forest,it will look like he isn't stocking venison.
EB mentions issues that came up after modding began. 1 of those is the unit measure of food. bannies eat roughly 100 untis a year. nobody has figured what a unit is.is it by weight or volume,etc? CC started using a trade value with processed foods.most mods follow that idea. a few mods increase outputs in processing.some butchers will take 1 unti of deer and give out several roasts or units of sausages,etc. normally,you get less food from processing items. i think this is wrong.
if you take a unit of flour and add a unit of fruit,you have 2 units.rather it be by volume or weight.in the game we have 1 unit of pie.if i did this in my kitchen,the pie would be bigger than the starting unit of fruit or flour.if however,i cut up a 100# deer,i would still have 100# of meat.so yes there is a drawback to the idea.
in the game, the problem is we can't increase the value of the pie to the bannies.we can tag it grain or fruit not both. so by rights,we should increase the outputs.trade values of processed foods should still increase to compensate for the work time involved.
The weight unit of resources is only for storage purposes.
1 apple in the game can mean 1 apple or 1 basket of apples.
Markets not have issues with Non Edible foods in itself.
But players want the markets to store only Edible foods and the four categories equally spread out and i don't think this is possible.
My Farm stand had it setup so all four food groups were equally spread out but this meant also Non Edible got stored and some "complained" about that.
So I changed the market segment in the code to Edible so no Non Edible got stored anymore but the downside is that the four food groups are not coded in at all and so a market can fill up with for example only Venison with no more room for other foods till the Bannies take some out and hopefully not another vendor is closest by to drop another load of Venison in it. Can't have it both so the modder have to make a choice which way to go. I think for players the storage issues are more important then having flour Non Edible so I have seen requests to make flour, and maybe others, just Edible again.
Yes the Non Edible at the start of the game was briefly discussed to make the game a bit harder but it makes the start maybe too hard so the idea went away.
We just have to face reality that the Banished code is not up to par with what many modders/players like to add to it.
Sure, lots of stuff like housing/decoration/etc works mostly out of the box, but stuff like Edible/Non Edible Storage issues/What Merchants will bring/Some Path Issues, the just 20 flags(Can you imagine if we not have gotten the extra 10 flags?) are just things we cannot get around without having the C++ Source Code or Luke is willing to implement it which is not gonna happen as he is busy with his new creation and i not see him put the source code into the public domain.
Quote from: embx61 on October 15, 2018, 07:38:10 AM
Here the link where some of the market problems were discussed and give a good indication why some markets are coded in a certain way.
It most had to do with the non edible part of flour.
Bannies took it home to eat as it was flagged edible so it was hurting the bakery chain so some asked it to be made non edible but this resulted in some markets/storage issues.
As I said in the other thread lots of stuff we did not know at the time it had downsides too and discovered those over time.
Now many want the flour to be edible again but then some going to argue it will hurt the bakery chain because bannies will take some home to eat and we are back at how it all started in the first place. :)
http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1005.msg18786#msg18786
.
as i read back the old discussion, Kralyerg said : market look for grain, so vendor pickup flour, it arrive at market : no! that is not edible, idiot! and then, the vendor go back. since he has alzimer.... he pickup back the flour and go to market again.
lol
so i am wondering now what if we try :
storage : grain | vegetable | fruit | protein
and market distribution : Edible = 0.99
??
Edit : Oh ! it will bug with Water. water it has edible only, no diet.
so sorry
@Kyana . there is no perfect world in Banished Lands.
Indeed Red.
That is why I changed the Farm Stand as some wanted it so no Non Edibles where stored but with the issue it is possible a market get filled with just 1 food(group) as I deleted the four food groups in the Market segment and replaced it with just Edible.
The best is either get rid if Non Edible foods all together or allow Non Edibles to be stored in Markets beside Edible so at least the four food groups can be set at 25% each.
Quote from: embx61 on October 15, 2018, 01:09:23 PM
The best is either get rid if Non Edible foods all together or allow Non Edibles to be stored in Markets beside Edible so at least the four food groups can be set at 25% each.
indeed Embx, dealing with non-edible food only lead yourself in trouble.
there is no bridge over trouble waters :)
Just checked the code of Production Set 1 and see i must have changed the Flour from only Grain to Edible | Grain more then a year back.
Probably must have done this then allready to avoid the storage issues.
I am pretty sure I have no other Non Edibles in my Mods :)
I've always thought those two unused flags would be a good place for inedible food and water, personally. Under the standard set of flags, they aren't being used, so why not use them?
In the end, if inedible foods, flour or otherwise, are causing problems with vendor efficiency because it confuses them, why do they even need to be flagged as food when they are actually production intermediaries with that being their only purpose? Even without dedicating a flag to it, Misc would work, no?
For flour or any other food intermediary being edible or not, modders should decide what works best for them and their sets. Or accommodate the choice with a different pull-down for the production output?
Obviously, there's no right or wrong answer with any of this and it's largely a question of personal preference. And not everyone will be happy with everything.
Mentioned it before when this came up in the past, I'd love to see some more creativity with the flags. The existing system follows what's needed to keep everything in line with CC and that makes sense because it's so popular. Logically, keeping everything compatible is the way to go in most cases. But if a modder is doing a big full set, I don't see anything wrong with taking it in a different direction, either. I think Discrepancy mentioned something about this and I'm interested in seeing what he comes up with if he does. The problem with the current system, if one doesn't use CC, is there are simultaneously not enough flags while there also unused flags. Lol
I'd love to try some different things, myself, but I'm a long way off from that and there aren't enough flags to do what I'd like to do. Luke threw us a big bone with the 10 extra flags. 20 would have been a lot better, though. :D
I know Red :P but your market does get stuck with picking up inedibles to the market and not being able to put it in then? I thought u had the solution :'(.. Why not make water misc :P? You drink it not eat it anyway. Like alcohol is not in the edibles either. Luxery water haha.
I think getting a good diet in the market is now impossible and should be on the list of priority to fix somehow :P it's a real problem for me
I agree Maldrick.
if you are hungry, go pickup a full glass of water, you will see it calms hungry ! :D
thats a fact mostly reconized ^^
bah i thought i had a solution but as i said, [CC]Kralyerg said it will still trigger a loop
or you say : OK, i can store this, now if i look at the % , i need to pickup more of this
or you say : OK, i need more of this, i am gone to pickup, wait what ? i can't it store it ? ok, bring back
there is the 2 ways coding it. probably the developper made the bad choice.
can a market be set to take just inedible foods? then that could be built near a bakery or mill and would pull most of the inedible foods to it.what is stored there won't be in the other markets.as it would be used up by the mill,the vendor will always be busy emptying inedibles from barns.
the issue with moving inedibles to the misc flag is then it will store with fertilizer.any others will store in a production zone. 1 thing to consider is not all mods work with inedibles.you can correct me on that if i am wrong.seems that came up before thou.the MM is a different beast since each mod had to be changed and coded to fit.
That's what i said Red :P thats why the food markets are not working well for their purpose.
We shouldnt have inedible food or have other flags for it. We also shouldnt have food without a category like water. Or change the "edible" flag to an "inedible" flag and put the inedibles there. Normal foodmarket only gets grain protein fruit and veg, the inedible items only 1 flag (inedible, not inedible and grain for flour). Problem solved :P
No markets cant be set to take inedibles because there is no inedible flag.
Quote from: Kyana on October 15, 2018, 02:56:25 PM
No markets cant be set to take inedibles because there is no inedible flag.
THIS!
inedibles isnt a flag, this is the absence of flags :)
I think there is 1 flag left which can be used for Non Edible foods.
I not have a use for it as my Mods not have Non Edible stuff.
I never had so much market issues as others seem to have.
Sure, it is not perfect either, and indeed sometimes the market vendor gets crazy but I have seen it sorted out after a while a lot of times too, but then I not playing a game what has to be perfect in that sense.
For me it is part of the challenge and sometimes get a smile on my face to see how dumb some of those Bannies can be when they store that stuff I just put a small market for to another market a mile away. :)
Quote from: brads3 on October 15, 2018, 02:49:54 PM
the issue with moving inedibles to the misc flag is then it will store with fertilizer.
That's only an issue if one uses mods that have fertilizer. For me, that's just when I'm playing with Red's big mod. Since getting back I, finally, started playing with CC seriously. That puts all kinds of things in there, reeds for fuel production, domesticated animals for farming, all manner of stuff. It's Miscellaneous. But it's the same for several other flags because there just aren't enough flags to spread everything out and also have it make logical sense. Usually, I piece together sets using neither and that flag goes completely unused along with several others, while food and others are getting glutted.
Trying to make every mod work with every other mod creates a practical situation of there constantly not being enough flags while half of them go unused unless you are using CC or a couple of other particular mods, pretty much.
Quote from: RedKetchup on October 15, 2018, 03:01:56 PM
inedibles isnt a flag, this is the absence of flags :)
Under the standard "CC compatibility" system, Custom 8 and Custom 9 are unused.
Custom 9 is used by me to set hapiness items without the alcohol flag
Fish and perfume? I always get fish in some tavernlike places :P why don't the luxery's go in one spot?
And what use is the edibles flag anyway, if its in protein grain fruit veg then it actually has a purpose for citizen when they consume it. An inedibles flag is much more usefull and have the edibles in the food category's.
edible flag tell the game citizens eat them
There is no Non Edible flag.
Edible is sort of hard coded and if we take it out on every food the game will last maybe a couple of minutes because no Bannie will eat and so will starve to death. Game over!
The four sub groups are there to give the Bannies a health bonus if they eat food out all four groups.
I understand that some things in the game and which are modded in, not make much sense from a real life perspective but not much we modders can do about it.
We have to bend the real life rules a bit here and there or just not much mods could be created except for maybe decorations and housing.
The modding of Banished is quite limited compare with some other games which have modding support. Luke, the developer, not had modding support in mind from the start and added it on in a later stage and so it is quite limited as many things are not opened up so modders can access it.
As Luke is not working on Banished anymore this is what we have to work with.
Luxury is just the name given by the CC crew in the string table but is in Vanilla called Alcohol.
yup luxury isnt a real flag, it is just the name , the look of the name at your screen that is typed with an L an U an X an U an R and an Y but in fact it as Alcohol its real name. and here, we, we still use the name Alcohol :)
it is same as mineral. mineral is the name you see at your screen, but in reality, it is coal limit.
Oo okay i thought the edibles flag was added by moderators.
We can do something about it, add an inedibles flag and dont let flour have grain and inedible but just inedible then we can have working food markets with flag limits for all 4 food types :)