World of Banished

I can't stand it. I'm building a town and not showing off!  :-[ So here's Quatre Bras.

I've always liked the name, whether for it's historical significance, its humorous possibilities, or for the fact that I've been there and looked down the slope from where Wellington watched Ney come marching up thru the cornfields.

Anyway, going to try out some mods for the first time. Here's what I'm using:

RK Warehouse
RK Irrelevant Tweak Crop
RK Creamery and Dairy
RK Decorative Items
RK Small Chapel
RK General Goods Merchant Fix
SJGL Small Markets
Pangaea Longer-living Orchards
Better Fields
Flatten Terrain
Fountain Mod Lite
Town & Textiles
Pangaea No Wind

Seed

Start

First builds are a hunter and a forester out in a clearing, going to make a forest that I otherwise would not have. Four foresters set to plant only. It's a huge investment and will take some years to pay off, but I think it's a good move. Going to grab up all the stone, iron, and mature trees (one by one) from the circle so there's more room to plant.

The hunter already is producing ok. Going to rely on hunting and farming for food; I'll also build a gatherer for bonus food.

First year, one wooden house. Two more each year for several years. SOP.

Year 3

Three farms working; love the better fields mod. This is delightful. Not a cheat, a miracle!

Used the Flatten Terrain tool at the end of the peninsula there to make a spot for a fisher. Just had to splat 5 squares for it to fit. Won't be building it just yet though.

The new forest is filling in nicely. A year or two more and I can start harvesting.

Feeling flush with stone and iron, and plenty more surface stuff at hand.

The hunting cabin has an uneducated hunter  >:( my one uneducated bannie. Die.

Chopper and smith are up, tailor is next, then the market. Need a full-blown market first, then I'll use Slink's lovely stuff on the periphery.

Year 7

The forester gamble has paid off, comfortable supplies of logs, probably the first time ever for me.

A full forest node in the south.

Experimenting with farm layouts, changing them every year (that's why there's no roads at the farms). I kind of like 20x6s, but I'm not sold 100% on them just yet.

A cemetery, just in case. I am well-stocked with stone. Planning a quarry and a mine to the southeast.

Screen 2 - Spring 7, the first TP is up. This will be the center of a micro-town using Slink's Markets.

Screen 3 - Winter 7, Farm Market  :)

Early Spring 8

Screen 1 - First merchant brings stone; cool! Placed orders for logs, stone, iron, wool.

Screen 2 - Built the fisher, houses and a barn. Judicious use of the flattening tool was extremely useful here. Again, not a cheat, a gift! :D

Screen 3 - Overall view of the main development. Another forester; I am really beginning to appreciate these guys. Build them everywhere, they're cheap! Free logs.

Screen 4 -  The southern fringe. Mine and quarry are going in the lower right left corner. More farms first though.

Nice start! Interesting map, too, and love the name. :)

The foresters are coming along nicely.  I'm a huge fan of foresters. I think they are either underutilized by most players on the larger maps, or they just don't mention that they are using them.

Yes, it's a very nice map. This is the second town I've started on it; the first one got over-extended and I used too much stone. That was the town where I decided that building wooden houses from the start was the way to go, regardless of onlookers' scorn  ;)

You can start building stone houses when the merchants start bringing it. Until then, you just chop more firewood. With well-sited foresters, logs are free.

I don't build stone houses. Ever. Not since I did it for the related achievement. My sense of aesthetics won't allow it. But since I'm so used to not using the stone houses, I'm used to managing the increased firewood / coal usage, so it's business as usual. I will probably begin using Slink's Snug Houses on my next town or soon thereafter, though, so it'll probably feel like a windfall to have my heating costs go down.

Yeah, the stone houses are bug-ugly (it's the slate roofs. Rooves? WTF?). But should you get to 1000 houses, the difference between wood and stone is 15-20,000 fuel per year. Just something to consider.

Looks like a promising start, and it's fun to see somebody besides myself use my mods :D

That fishery must be such a killer, perfect location, and you've even got the houses and barn pretty close by. What's the intake? You seem to have a real knack for finding great hunter spots too. I never get those numbers with just one hunter :|

Stone houses aren't nice at all, and very expensive in the beginning, so I don't really understand why people would build them from the start. Seems to me the downsides outweigh the gains. At some point it becomes pretty difficult to keep up with firewood supply, though, so I had to start turning the hundreds of woodhouses into stonehouses. They look dreadful, but I've got more used to them now, so don't notice it quite as much as in the start. The difference in firewood consumption is pretty large, so with hundreds of houses it really adds up. If you spent 15,000 firewood to heat woodhouses, the same cost is 10,000 with stonehouses. Even with much fewer houses, it quickly adds up. I too always put them off, though, as stone houses don't look good at all.

Tied to the above, I'm also a forester lover ;D Need some manpower, but they're great buildings. Free logs, and the landscape looks better.

... quatre ( = 4 = four in french) wonderbra ?

I am happy to see, you started a new blog. I promise there will be questions. But not now.

For some reason I have problems to open these larger pictures (png, bmp), suppose my internet-connection makes trouble again.

One question  ;D

Why do you not use the smaller jpg picture format?

By the way; I agree with you all:

Stonehouses - ugly - only built them if I "have to"

Forests - beautiful, my favourite part of the Banished-"buildings". If I have the space, I build more foresters than I need, just to see the deep thick forests. :) (Same in life, I am a forest-person, love to spend time in the forest "playing gatherer". Mainly collecting berries and mushrooms)

Quote from: RedKetchup on October 15, 2014, 02:51:27 AM
... quatre ( = 4 = four in french) wonderbra ?

Ohh, I misspelled it in my post. It's correct in the game. Quatre Bras

Quote from: Nilla on October 15, 2014, 03:28:50 AM

One question  ;D

Why do you not use the smaller jpg picture format?

@Nilla , I never thought about it. I use MS Paint, and that is its default format. I shall start using jpg.

Quote from: Pangaea on October 15, 2014, 12:36:44 AM
That fishery must be such a killer, perfect location, and you've even got the houses and barn pretty close by. What's the intake? You seem to have a real knack for finding great hunter spots too. I never get those numbers with just one hunter :|

Yeah, I expect big things from the fisher, but this is its first year, and so far I have only two fishermen.

The hunter just north of the market hasn't really panned out as he should have, the uneducated fellow just won't go away. I fired him twice and put him to work gathering, but he keeps coming back. He lives right there is why; maybe time to upgrade his house!

Year 10

The fisher starts to produce. Wasn't ready for sheep, but that's what the merchant brought, so I put up a fast pasture in the only available spot. Hadn't really thought about where livestock would go.

The first two deaths; happiness takes a half-star hit (probly more cause I made the laborers cut down trees in the cold, rather than cause of the losses, sad though they were), so a @RedKetchup chapel is built. :)

Damn! Another dead female, another codger living alone. And 5 single females in their 20s, with no males but one 13 y/o student. >:( :o

That 13 yo is going to have fun  ;D

That fisher; looks great :)

I think you have reall bad luck, 3 deaths in the first 10 years. And than all those females.......... how would this end? ;)

Quote from: irrelevant on October 16, 2014, 05:48:24 PM
Damn! Another dead female, another codger living alone. And 5 single females in their 20s, with no males but one 13 y/o student. >:( :o

This is Banished, so if you build a house one of those females will grab the 13 y/o and start having babies. One the hand you might have some qualms about marrying off 13 y/o for breeding purposes. On the other hand, the species and the community do need to survive.

This reasoning shows you what a PhD in ethics can do for you.

Quote from: Pangaea on October 16, 2014, 11:20:43 PM
That 13 yo is going to have fun  ;D

Yes, but he still can only have one. ;)

Quote from: Nilla on October 17, 2014, 01:18:55 AM
That fisher; looks great :)

I think you have reall bad luck, 3 deaths in the first 10 years. And than all those females.......... how would this end? ;)

Yes the fisher is getting 2600-2900, I like that.

How will it end? Same as all towns, at pop 2000 :D But this will certainly slow things down for some years. Times like this, a band of nomads would be welcome.

Quote from: rkelly17 on October 17, 2014, 07:15:25 AM
This is Banished, so if you build a house one of those females will grab the 13 y/o and start having babies. One the hand you might have some qualms about marrying off 13 y/o for breeding purposes. On the other hand, the species and the community do need to survive.

This reasoning shows you what a PhD in ethics can do for you.

I have no such qualms. It's a game, my bannies can do whatever they need to do  ;D

Kinda interesting how it played out. One of my codgers kicked off, and the oldest of the spinsters took his empty house just on her own. A few seasons later the 13 y/o male moved in with her. Guess it took some time for him to gather up his courage. I'd never seen that happen before.

Year 13

Building a small park in front of the town hall with benches and permanent oak trees. Folks are spending lots of time there before it even is finished, back to five stars.

Built a @RedKetchup warehouse to take pressure off the barns, which were filling up with food. Money in the bank ;)

Year 14

Bought wheat seeds, paid the premium for them.

Took in 6 nomads, but they didn't have any unmarried adults. Oh well, as it was I had too many houses, now I'm good. Probly build my quarry soon; surface stone is pretty far away.

Built a tavern, put a fruit market next to it. Released 666 apples from the TP.

The first thing into the fruit market was pumpkins, then berries. The apples went to the farm market. It's a nice idea, anyway.

Building an orchard, which I never do. But I figure with Better Fields and Longer-Living Orchards, it doesn't matter what size it is, and it'll be good.

Running with just one TP, I don't want to boom. Going to build this one up slowly. I really like this map, and I don't want to rush it.

Year 15

North Quatre Bras

South Quatre Bras

Scarin' them crows.

So relaxing not to be booming pop. :D I mean, truly.

I am a shameless matchmaker.

Earner's wife (Thor's mother) died earlier in the year. Mirandis' husband Shannett just died (of a weak heart), leaving her and her two children behind.

I upgraded both their houses, then reclaimed them.

They found happiness together, or solace, or something. :P

And Averling and Aryam hooked up in Mirandis' hastily-vacated house. ;)

I hope 13 y/o Thor doesn't get any ideas about his 18 y/o stepmother. :o

Thor with the Hammer doesn't care ;)

Looks very nice btw, and I like the pleasant area outside the Town Hall. How do you find the bigger/longer crop sizes so far?

Year 17 - new housing choices, thanks to @RedKetchup and @slink. Thanks, you two!  :D

 ;D

First harvest for the improved orchard. When picking time began, I flooded the orchard with workers, assigning 10 farmers to do the work.

Quote from: Pangaea on October 18, 2014, 11:46:31 PM
Thor with the Hammer doesn't care ;)

Looks very nice btw, and I like the pleasant area outside the Town Hall. How do you find the bigger/longer crop sizes so far?

@Pangaea Thanks! The larger fields (and orchards!) are great, gives much-needed flexibility to farming.

I just noticed that one of the things I can build is an Inn. I had no idea; I don't even know what mod that is from.

What's it good for?

I could have used the flatten tool, but I built a bridge instead. Ha! ;D

Late Spring 18

Okay, demolishing/rebuilding the old Farm Market that was causing trouble.

Expanding across the river. Going to do the cattle-milk-yogurt thing over there, plus hunters, foresters, and fishers. For now.

Spring 19

And it looks like that solved the Farm Market problem.

Amazing what taking in just 8 nomads can allow you to get done in the early years.

A couple of offhand mod impressions.

I think the greenhouse is OP. Produces scads of high-value seedlings at no cost. Who needs to make ale? Just plop down 3-4 greenhouses. I turned mine off 3 years ago, still have nearly 1000 seedlings in stock. I think its production needs to be halved, or cost something (fuel? herbs? Roots! Of course!), or TV halved, or maybe all 3.

My current impression is that the Farm Market is OP, 10,000 storage for the cost of a wooden house? A barn costs way more, holds far less. At least it takes up lots of space. Still thinking about it.

Quote from: irrelevant on October 20, 2014, 06:42:54 PM
I just noticed that one of the things I can build is an Inn. I had no idea; I don't even know what mod that is from.

What's it good for?

It's either from Fountain or Town & Textiles, can't remember exactly which one, but it sort of serves as a "budget boarding house". I built one once. I liked it, but I didn't really need it. I ended up not using either of those mods again anyway.

@Mahnogard Thanks for the 411, sounds like something I can live without, like most of the other junk from that mod package.

This town is so much fun, so different from what I have done before. I have only four farms, one tailor, one blacksmith, one tavern, two choppers. Only one market! Only one TP!! But I have a quarry, a mine, five foresters, two gatherers, three hunters. Plus all the wonderful things our modders have created for us! Thanks to you all!

So much potential on this map. With the mods that have been created so far, it's like a whole new game! I can only guess what is still to come.

Foresters placed in virgin territory set to cut and plant are decent collectors of surface stone and iron.

@snapster you reading this? ;) I've built a pop 6000 town, yet this pop 108 podunk-ville excites me. Want to know why? Just ask your questions here. But please be specific to my town; I'm not interested in discussions about Meta-Banished. And try to be polite; if my blog gets locked, I'll be pissed. ;)

This makes me so happy.

What's on the map? And I'm waiting for the thread to be reopened. Strange, in my opinion, how and why a mod decided to close it down. It even seemed he was following the discussion yet at the mention of sex, at the least a partly incorrect analogy but that's to be expected from a self-admitted plodder ;), some insidious strain in the thread turned nefarious and apparently even came to dominate the whole discussion. But I digress. By the way, I was pmed by someone who agreed with me and found the game "basic". Even with "self-imposed goals/limits" you ultimately find yourself "painting with 5 colours". A Banishedophile like you should be more interested.

I also got the game yesterday. I'm a desperate guy.  :(

Quote from: snapster on October 21, 2014, 07:56:24 AM
I also got the game yesterday.

Even though the price of the game is reasonable as games go these days, I can understand not wanting to part with the money until you're sure.  It seems one thing that's clear, though, is that folks get different things from the game.  So, trying it out for yourself might be the best thing in the long run.  I hope you like it, and get some enjoyment from it.

Quote from: snapster on October 21, 2014, 07:56:24 AM
What's on the map? And I'm waiting for the thread to be reopened. Strange, in my opinion, how and why a mod decided to close it down. It even seemed he was following the discussion yet at the mention of sex, at the least a partly incorrect analogy but that's to be expected from a self-admitted plodder ;), some insidious strain in the thread turned nefarious and apparently even came to dominate the whole discussion. But I digress. By the way, I was pmed by someone who agreed with me and found the game "basic". Even with "self-imposed goals/limits" you ultimately find yourself "painting with 5 colours". A Banishedophile like you should be more interested.

I also got the game yesterday. I'm a desperate guy.  :(

Glad you replied. I agree, it would be nice if the thread were re-opened; I'll see if I can plod over and appeal.

"What's on the map?" Just interesting terrain, plenty of spaces for little villages each with its own trading post, lots of surface stone and iron to help get things started in each area. Yes, every map has more or less of this same stuff. But this is the map I'm building on now, and that makes it more interesting to me.

It doesn't feel to me like painting with 5 colors, especially not when more new things are being created every day by our imaginative modders. I'm already as interested by Banished as I care to be; any more would not be healthy for work or home.  ;) Seriously, you telling me what I should find interesting is simply not compelling.

I'm glad you got the game. But you probably won't find it interesting  ;) Seriously though, I hope you get at least some enjoyment out of it.

I'm not surprised that someone told you they found the game to be "basic." I think what you get out of this game is dependent on what you put into it. Like with any game, any pursuit. I'm happy and comfortable with my level of involvement.

edit: oh, be sure to do the tutorial. Banished's learning curve can be brutal.

Quote from: salamander on October 21, 2014, 08:17:39 AM

Quote from: snapster on October 21, 2014, 07:56:24 AM
I also got the game yesterday.

Even though the price of the game is reasonable as games go these days, I can understand not wanting to part with the money until you're sure.

I'm not sure.  :D

Quote from: irrelevant on October 21, 2014, 08:27:14 AM"What's on the map?" Just interesting terrain, plenty of spaces for little villages each with its own trading post, lots of surface stone and iron to help get things started in each area. Yes, every map has more or less of this same stuff. But this is the map I'm building on now, and that makes it more interesting to me.

... :-X

As for the rest, the point is Banished can be and should be better. What you get out of the game depends on what you put into it, like with anything in life, doesn't hold too much water, but it does mean you're satisfied and still playing and there can be others like you. It's important to recognize how insignificant this can be though. At the moment I take it the game isn't thriving, and after a bump things may head for the worse.

So, what will you be doing next on that map?

Quote from: snapster on October 21, 2014, 09:51:20 AM
At the moment I take it the game isn't thriving, and after a bump things may head for the worse.

What is your source for this information? I don't get out much.

Quote from: snapster on October 21, 2014, 09:51:20 AM
So, what will you be doing next on that map?

At the moment I need more log production, and also more food; my food consumption and production are about equal right now, and that means consumption will soon exceed production if I don't act (it's not an emergency as I have about 4 years' worth of food in storage). I'll build a couple more foresters there on the far side of that river, add a gatherer or two. This will require additional housing over there, some kind of market structure, some additional storage. Eventually I'll expand the farming operation at the other end of the town, I just haven't decided on the timing. Doing so will interfere with the forester, gatherer, and herbalist there, so I'll need to compensate for that.

My second trading post is under construction there in the last screenshot, and to stock it I will need to build a village in the area in the bend of the river off to the left. That village will need a market, housing, a tailor, a blacksmith, a woodcutter, a school, maybe a tavern. I also plan eventually to build a monastery there (produces books for trade). Probably I will build @RedKetchup's grain milll and a bakery, since the purpose of this town is to learn how to make use of the new structures and product chains. This is a long-term project, will take probably ten years to get all that set up.

I expect that area will become the main manufacturing and trading hub for the entire map. It will ultimately be filled with housing and various producers and storage buildings and stockpiles.

How about the activity in Banished communities for the game not thriving?

How would you supply separated foresters and gatherers aside from the stuff they acquire?

What will the challenges to and purpose of your trading posts be? Just prosperity without being able to do much with it seems pretty pointless.

Speaking of production chains, I wonder whether this can introduce more or a further point to the game. Since modders control requirements of buildings (building time and/or builders required too?) and some effects (along with hopefully their appearance and even grandeur) could the point of a game be to reach the end of a chain or tree that would entail difficulty or challenge?

Quote from: snapster on October 21, 2014, 10:20:02 AM
How about the activity in Banished communities for the game not thriving?

Unaware of such activity. Doesn't matter to me in any case; it's thriving just fine here.

Quote from: snapster on October 21, 2014, 10:20:02 AM
How would you supply separated foresters and gatherers aside from the stuff they acquire?

I'll put a market over there eventually. Until then they can get what they need across the river.

Quote from: snapster on October 21, 2014, 10:20:02 AM
What will the challenges to and purpose of your trading posts be? Just prosperity without being able to do much with it seems pretty pointless.

This map will eventually run out of stone and iron, I'll need to import those; I don't like putting quarries and mines everywhere. I'll probably eventually need to trade iron tools and wool/hide coats for steel tools and warm coats. My experience has been that eventually I'll no longer be self-sufficient in logs to produce firewood and build additional buildings.

Yes, at some point either the map will be full, or I'll start another town with a different goal. This town was started just to explore mods. I may learn things that I will want to start a new town in order to more fully explore.

I was thinking about this area while I was at lunch. I may not develop it to the extent that I described, I may instead just develop it as one more semi-autonomous village that also has a trading post to bring in some needed imports.

Quote from: snapster on October 21, 2014, 10:28:24 AM
Speaking of production chains, I wonder whether this can introduce more or a further point to the game. Since modders control requirements of buildings (building time and/or builders required too?) and some effects (along with hopefully their appearance and even grandeur) could the point of a game be to reach the end of a chain or tree that would entail difficulty or challenge?

I'm not really sufficiently knowledgeable about modding to answer this question very well. My understanding is that there are significant limits to what is possible with modding. For example I believe that it is not possible to add new categories of resources. While it certainly is possible to make new individual resources, they must fit (or be forced to fit!) into one of the existing categories (wood, fuel, stone, iron, coal, tools, clothing, alcohol, fruit, vegetables, protein, grain....).

I also believe that it is not possible to make production of anything conditional on anything other than input resources, the construction of a production facility, and the availability of labor. And every input resource is theoretically available right from the start, although some, like coal, take a little bit of work to obtain (importing, which takes a few years to get going, or building a mine, which requires a significant investment in resources, time, and manpower). Although our modders have shown a great deal of inventiveness, and have created things previously believed to be impossible, like @RedKetchup's two story house. They may come up with some clever workarounds.

Now they could make a production chain that used another chain's product as an input, and if that chain used yet another chain's product as an input, and that chain used another.... @RedKetchup's creamery does this, makes cream, cheese, and yogurt, using milk as an input, which is an output from cattle pastures. Cream could be used as an input for some other chain, etc.

Saturation of resource is one thing to consider, at least so I've named it. Fundamentally things will require only so many of the types of resources which are immutable. But different resources of a type will be more saturated, meaning they will yield a lot more units of that type. Sort of like orders of magnitude. Some buildings will require players to deal with different orders of magnitude or different resources even though the type will remain the same. Different resources can be made to look differently, right? They can also be made exploitable only at certain thresholds in the game, similar to coal. Can a "resource" also be made to actually yield more than one type of resource? Something mined, gotten, or raised that is missed to yield different types of resources in proportion?

Are there different durations for constructing buildings? Input resources, prerequisite buildings, and amount (amount, right?) of labor sound adequate. Can modders determine building sizes too and actually make the buildings as they are to appear?

What can buildings be made to do?

Quote from: snapster on October 21, 2014, 11:42:28 AM
Saturation of resource is one thing to consider, at least so I've named it. Fundamentally things will require only so many of the types of resources which are immutable. But different resources of a type will be more saturated, meaning they will yield a lot more units of that type. Sort of like orders of magnitude. Some buildings will require players to deal with different orders of magnitude or different resources even though the type will remain the same. Different resources can be made to look differently, right? They can also be made exploitable only at certain thresholds in the game, similar to coal. Can a "resource" also be made to actually yield more than one type of resource? Something mined, gotten, or raised that is missed to yield different types of resources in proportion?

I don't understand exactly what you are asking wrt "saturation". Is it possible for production of some resource to completely overwhelm demand for that resource? Absolutely. In that case it just piles up, unless you stop producing it, or trade it away, or build some other production building that uses it up. Also many products (fuel, food, tools, and coats) are consumed by houses and their inhabitants. You can always build more houses (which will lead to increased population and more consumption, and eventually, demand for even more houses).

Some production buildings produce multiple outputs simultaneously (although these are first level producers, like gatherers huts that produce 4 kinds of food, and pastures which produce mutton and wool, or beef, leather, and milk, or hunters cabins which produce venison and leather). Other production buildings have choices you make, you can produce either one thing or another, each with different inputs. You can switch back and forth at will. Each different resource can have a unique appearance.

Quote from: snapster on October 21, 2014, 11:42:28 AM
Are there different durations for constructing buildings? Input resources, prerequisite buildings, and amount (amount, right?) of labor sound adequate. Can modders determine building sizes too and actually make the buildings as they are to appear?

Yes to everything here. There may be no limit, or more likely a very large limit, to this. You could make a structure with a huge footprint, that required hundreds of logs, stone, and iron to build, and took thousands of units of labor to construct. You also can vary the maximum number of builders that can work on a structure at the same time, so it could take literally years to build a building if you wanted to make it that way. Think "gothic cathedral"

Quote from: snapster on October 21, 2014, 11:42:28 AM
What can buildings be made to do?

I think it basically boils down to a choice between serving as a residence, as a storage building, or as a resource producer. Well, also there are schools, and churches, and hospitals, each with specialized functions.

More effective resources can be introduced into the game by making them yield much more of a resource type than another resource, forcing players to deal in them and creating steps in the game. Some buildings will in turn require the much larger amounts of a resource type to be constructed. The resources could also be made to be exploitable at different stages based on the cost of the necessary buildings, etc.

Can resources be made to yield multiple types of resources was one of the questions.

You wrote that buildings can also serve as prerequisites for other buildings? Can they not serve as residences, storage buildings, or resource producers but instead as prerequisites for other buildings or even as nothing? What can buildings be made to do in relation to people?

Quote from: snapster on October 21, 2014, 12:04:18 PM
More effective resources can be introduced into the game by making them yield much more of a resource type than another resource, forcing players to deal in them and creating steps in the game. Some buildings will in turn require the much larger amounts of a resource type to be constructed. The resources could also be made to be exploitable at different stages based on the cost of the necessary buildings, etc.

Can resources be made to yield multiple types of resources was one of the questions.

You wrote that buildings can also serve as prerequisites for other buildings? Can they not serve as residences, storage buildings, or resource producers but instead as prerequisites for other buildings or even as nothing? What can buildings be made to do in relation to people?

I don't think buildings themselves can be prerequisites for other buildings, but their outputs could be required as inputs for other buildings' outputs. I don't know whether a manufactured product can be a required material to go into the construction of a building. So far, I have not seen any buildings that required anything other than logs, stone and/or iron to build.

Certainly it is possible to mod a structure that does nothing other than take up space. I don't think you can give it any special significance though, other than to give it a happiness radius. As far as I am aware, none of the modders have talked about discovering that it is possible to make construction of a structure conditional on the presence of another structure. But there are modders at work who don't always talk about what they are up to, and in any case they don't all hang out in here.

Buildings can house people, or give them a place to work, or go to school, or to place resources into for storage.

An herbalist is an interesting case. The herbalist gathers herbs, which go into storage. Any citizen can take a herb from storage, but in order to use it, they have to take it to the herbalist shop, where it is consumed. The citizen's health then increases by 1/2 heart (10%).

Actually if buildings can be made to produce multiple resource types at a time then a building for a certain new resource can in turn make the yield be of different types of resources so you already gave a good response.

In a crude way even buildings can be made prerequisites for other buildings by yielding a large set amount of resources, so there's that inelegant that.

So you're saying buildings require only types of resources rather than resources? Either way.

The herbalist thing cannot be replicated by modders?

Quote from: snapster on October 21, 2014, 12:34:35 PM
The herbalist thing cannot be replicated by modders?

I expect it could be.

"So you're saying buildings require only types of resources rather than resources? Either way."

What's the answer to this? I could've been wasting my time to some extent here. :p If buildings require resources rather than types things would be simpler. By the way, can modders work on the environment to introduce/accommodate new resources, kind of like oil appears in Civilization?

Quote from: snapster on October 21, 2014, 01:04:59 PM
"So you're saying buildings require only types of resources rather than resources? Either way."

What's the answer to this? I could've been wasting my time to some extent here. :p If buildings require resources rather than types things would be simpler. By the way, can modders work on the environment to introduce/accommodate new resources, kind of like oil appears in Civilization?

Buildings require specifically a certain number of logs, stone, and/or iron. Once the required number of each resource is placed on the building footprint, the assigned builders can begin construction, which will cost a certain number of labor units.

I think "logs," "stone," and "iron," are not only specific types of resources, they also are categories of resources. But the resources required for a building are the specific types. If you created a new resource that fit into the category "stone," you would not be able to use it to build a building, as a building requires the specific resource "stone."

edit: it seems that construction material inputs are not limited to logs, stone, and iron. It may be possible to have the required construction materials be anything at all. Limited to three different ones.

See this: http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=593.0

Interesting indeed. Utopian domiciles are independent projects, and I think he was making fun of us. Tying it all together into a game of town progression where the demands for getting to the next stage rise and put you under pressure, with new resources, perhaps products, and buildings along the way being integral, is what modders should be aiming for to introduce more meaning into playing.

So things can't be scripted I guess is the word? For instance, you can't artificially reduce the happiness of a town for some event you're trying to create and make the recovering of that happiness conditional on something you want the player to do?

You mentioned books were involved in trading. What's the point of books in this game? What are they classified under?

Quote from: irrelevant on October 20, 2014, 08:26:37 PM
My current impression is that the Farm Market is OP, 10,000 storage for the cost of a wooden house? A barn costs way more, holds far less. At least it takes up lots of space. Still thinking about it.

The specialized markets are all built too cheaply.  They were never properly finished.  I'll get back to them one of these days, but at least I did make them a lighter shade of brown.  Until then, you can always decide what you should have paid for building them and trade away the difference at the trading post in exchange for nothing.   ;)

@slink Yes, they do look considerably better. I like the idea of them very much, they are much handier than a regular market.

Ohh, I'm such a beancounter, I'm not sure my training will allow me to do that  ;)

@RedKetchup - "... quatre ( = 4 = four in french) wonderbra ?"

Don't know if you got your answer but Quatre Bras means Four Arms in French.

(How do I quote ? When I click on the quote button nothing happens :o)

Quote from: Coug_r on October 22, 2014, 02:13:39 AM
@RedKetchup - "... quatre ( = 4 = four in french) wonderbra ?"

Don't know if you got your answer but Quatre Bras means Four Arms in French.

(How do I quote ? When I click on the quote button nothing happens :o)

maybe cause it was your first posts ?

if i said that it was because he made a typo error . he forgot to put an 's' :) he changed it thenafter.
i know  quatre bras = 4 arms, i m french !!!!!!!! LOL thats my primary home language.

and here , we called that ' brassière ' => >> 'bra' <<  (we most of the time say here, cause word too long). and a company is called like that.

Quote from: irrelevant on October 15, 2014, 04:24:29 AM

Quote from: RedKetchup on October 15, 2014, 02:51:27 AM
... quatre ( = 4 = four in french) wonderbra ?

Ohh, I misspelled it in my post. It's correct in the game. Quatre Bras

Oh, I didn't check your profile first, didn't see you come from the Belle Province !

I still cannot quote. I tried with Chrome, Firefox and Iexplore and nothing happens when I click on the quote button :s

yeah it was doing that too for me at begining, this is why i think it s cause it s your first posts. (thats a possibility)

and yeah i am from Québec, Canada.

Quote from: RedKetchup on October 22, 2014, 03:11:48 AM
yeah it was doing that too for me at begining, this is why i think it s cause it s your first posts. (thats a possibility)

and yeah i am from Québec, Canada.

really ??
I thought France !!
then you'd have to understand you even more with mathieso !!  >:( ;D ;D

i know, he is from Montréal, me, i live at 45 minutes in car from Montréal.
45 hours at foot lol (i dont have a car^^)

Quote from: RedKetchup on October 22, 2014, 03:21:24 AM
i know, he is from Montréal, me, i live at 45 minutes in car from Montréal.
45 hours at foot lol (i dont have a car^^)

oh god !!
pick up the phone and call !!!
no car?
and how you move among the snows Canadian ??

anyways :

Quote
Fountain mod successor    Cosacks    3 days ago

it s been 3 days he sent me that message and answered back.

he didnt liked what i told him IMO ^^

Quote from: RedKetchup on October 22, 2014, 03:48:40 AM
anyways :

Quote
Fountain mod successor    Cosacks    3 days ago

it s been 3 days he sent me that message and answered back.

he didnt liked what i told him IMO ^^

succeeded himself??  ;D

Quote from: Coug_r on October 22, 2014, 03:10:16 AM
I still cannot quote. I tried with Chrome, Firefox and Iexplore and nothing happens when I click on the quote button :s

Try changing the theme you're using.  I think a few of them have issues with the quote button.

Quote from: salamander on October 22, 2014, 04:05:27 AM

Quote from: Coug_r on October 22, 2014, 03:10:16 AM
I still cannot quote. I tried with Chrome, Firefox and Iexplore and nothing happens when I click on the quote button :s

Try changing the theme you're using.  I think a few of them have issues with the quote button.

I tried that but no success.

But obviously I can insert a quote when I am on the post reply page and I click on "insert quote" in the topic summary below.

Quote from: slink on October 21, 2014, 07:03:37 PM

Quote from: irrelevant on October 20, 2014, 08:26:37 PM
My current impression is that the Farm Market is OP, 10,000 storage for the cost of a wooden house? A barn costs way more, holds far less. At least it takes up lots of space. Still thinking about it.

The specialized markets are all built too cheaply.  They were never properly finished.  I'll get back to them one of these days, but at least I did make them a lighter shade of brown.  Until then, you can always decide what you should have paid for building them and trade away the difference at the trading post in exchange for nothing.   ;)

OK, they might be a little bit cheap to build, but I don´t think they are overpowered compared to barns, you must consider: The  small market need a vendor, the barn not. But I know @irrelevant you love your barns ;)

Have you missed my questions? Made a short brake. I discovered that I found my superior. ;) I must ask you; Do you have children? Your pedagogic way to answer, indicates that you have some experience of dealing with questions not only asked to learn something ;)

Quote from: slink on October 21, 2014, 07:03:37 PM

Quote from: irrelevant on October 20, 2014, 08:26:37 PM
My current impression is that the Farm Market is OP, 10,000 storage for the cost of a wooden house? A barn costs way more, holds far less. At least it takes up lots of space. Still thinking about it.

The specialized markets are all built too cheaply.  They were never properly finished.  I'll get back to them one of these days, but at least I did make them a lighter shade of brown.  Until then, you can always decide what you should have paid for building them and trade away the difference at the trading post in exchange for nothing.   ;)

@slink If the 10,000 cap market buildings cost more, I would no longer consider them to be OP. Maybe 32 log 16 stone. Still a good value.

Quote from: Nilla on October 22, 2014, 05:28:20 AM
OK, they might be a little bit cheap to build, but I don´t think they are overpowered compared to barns, you must consider: The  small market need a vendor, the barn not. But I know @irrelevant you love your barns ;)

@Nilla You know that I do!

Quote from: Nilla on October 22, 2014, 05:28:20 AM
Have you missed my questions? Made a short brake. I discovered that I found my superior. ;) I must ask you; Do you have children? Your pedagogic way to answer, indicates that you have some experience of dealing with questions not only asked to learn something ;)

I have missed your questions! They always make me think harder.

No, I do not have children. Too late now, I'm 58. ;) I have learned patience dealing with my 92 year old mother ;) She asks so many questions!

Early Winter 21 - pop 129

Yes, I'm still building a town  ;)

Still modest compared with earlier efforts. Mainly aiming at sustainable pop growth without booming TPs. It's difficult to do, because all of the producers - 2 breweries, 1 greenhouse, 3 pastures, 3 hunters, 5 farms, 2 gatherers, 1 herbalist, 1 tailor, 1 blacksmith, 2 fishers, 1 creamery, 3 choppers -  produce so damn much stuff. Either you trade it away or sock it away in a warehouse or TP. Not sure what to do about it.

At the moment, just biding time until the @RedKetchup bakery is ready  ;) Then I'll build a new village on the north shore of that lake there.

Screen 1 - Oldtown

Screen 2 -  Crossriver

Lost a half-heart with a balanced diet and an herbalist. I've noticed this happen before. I think this is what you get when you set laborers to gathering surface stone and iron in the wintertime.

How are the new production buildings incorporated into the balance of the game? Do they just merely give more options or make the game easier?

Both. Everything seems somewhat OP to me. Each one, just somewhat, but cumulatively it is too much. The original game is OP if you follow exploits. Adding in mods make it more so. Almost without exception.

Difficulty could be modded in, but it would not be popular.

O, I think it would be very popular. These buildings need to be integrated in ways that make the game interesting.

Can modders change game demands or requirements? For instance, with new production buildings can they change the variety and quantity of resources and products required to keep people happy?

Quote from: snapster on October 22, 2014, 08:54:03 PM
How are the new production buildings incorporated into the balance of the game? Do they just merely give more options or make the game easier?

Depends on the mod. There are mods out there that specifically make the game easier. There are mods that add variety and new production options.

Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 07:01:16 AM
Can modders change game demands or requirements? For instance, with new production buildings can they change the variety and quantity of resources and products required to keep people happy?

My impression is that some parameters are hard-coded beyond the modder's reach but some are accessible. In the example of happiness, it seems that happiness is connected to certain buildings, not to certain products, so a modder can add (or subtract) happiness from buildings. Examples of this are @RedKetchup's Small Chapel (http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=496.0) or Adriana's Library (http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=544.0). An example of taking away happiness is @RedKetchup's  Bobbi Special DoctorHouse (http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=446.0). I've used all of these and they work as advertised. In game you can spot buildings which produce happiness by citizens idling near them. In the vanilla game the only buildings that produce unhappiness are the quarry and the mine. They reduce the happiness of people living within a circle of influence. All of this is set out in available .rsc files, so happiness inducing or reducing mods are possible. Mods which, say, introduce a new food type which is required for complete nutrition may not be.

Complete nutrition doesn't contribute to happiness? If it does, how does it work? Buildings can add or subtract from happiness both generally and within a circle of influence?

Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 09:07:26 AM
Complete nutrition doesn't contribute to happiness? If it does, how does it work? Buildings can add or subtract from happiness both generally and within a circle of influence?

I'm not an expert on this, so I stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that health (of which nutrition seems to be a big part) and happiness are two separate systems. Every citizen has "hearts" for health and "stars" for happiness. Each is from 0-5 and the two ratings seem to operate independently from one another. The settlement has an average rating for each. Theoretically high health helps keep citizens from getting sick, but I've never seen any in-game evidence of that. In my towns usually by the time disease pops up (often after admitting nomads) the vast majority have five hearts with the occasional citizen with 4.5. You notice the effect of nutrition in the early game when your town doesn't have access to all food types (protein--nuts, meat and fish--fruits, vegetables and grain. On a hard start you don't get access to grain (wheat and corn) until you can trade for seeds. The rest come from gatherers, hunters and fishers.

Some buildings have a happiness circle and some don't. Those that do have different sized circles. Somewhere on this forum someone posted a picture which showed the circles which was, I think, done with the cheat engine. Some add some happiness to those within the circle, some attract people to come idle around them.

So say we're talking about health. Can modders do similar things to health with variety and quantity of foods as they can do to happiness with buildings? And are buildings really the only factor to affect happiness? Other factors can't be added?

Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 09:44:54 AM
So say we're talking about health. Can modders do similar things to health with variety and quantity of foods as they can do to happiness with buildings? And are buildings really the only factor to affect happiness? Other factors can't be added?

Not sure about the latter--someone like @RedKetchup who has worked with it in mods would know better. My one attempt would never compile properly and I don't have the patience to keep after it. What is in the .rsc files is a table of happiness types such as security, spirit and health. These are attached to certain buildings (for example, spirit to the chapel and health to the hospital). I'm not sure whether new types not already in the table could be created, but probably not.

As to health, I don't think that new categories can be added, but new foods which fit into one of the pre-existing types can be and are being added. Honey is one example--in fact the honey example in the mod kit was way over-powered because it produced like crazy and was a universal food which fit into all types, so modders have made dialed-back versions so as not to make things too easy.

unfortunatly health factor is hard-coded and cant be imitated for the moment.

They need to make things harder, not less easy. This involves going into happiness and health it seems. Game demands on what it takes to be happy and healthy need to be modifiable. Just adding positive things doesn't achieve much. Or there could be negative additions that positive additions balance or counter.

If things are inaccessible or not modifiable the developer should be engaged. He could well be interested in substantive appeals. Theoretical suggestions or mod products would also be helpful.

i dont know alot of people who would download a mod, a new building which would decease happiness or would trigger bad things IMO. whatever the game!

Then you have no grasp of game balance. Not everyone is like you, which is attested by many games and the people who play them. There are also better modders than you if this is how you think.

of course that are some/many.

and they are alot too who are worst.

The game needs modders that will try to carry it forward, not just add relatively meaningless things to play around with until the boredom is overwhelming.

Quote from: snapster on October 23, 2014, 10:16:28 AM
The game needs modders that will try to carry it forward, not just add relatively meaningless things to play around with until the boredom is overwhelming.

No, the game needs all different types of modders so that mods are available to suit many different play styles. A good selection of mods for any game includes all levels of cheats and challenges.

Yes, I would agree with that revision. One vital aspect seems to be lacking, however.

Autumn 23

Yes, I'm still building a town.

Figured out something I can do with all my bounty; buy seeds! Hey maybe that 40-seed mod is useful after all  ;)

So now there's a chestnut orchard coming. I never would build orchards, but with better fields and longer-lived orchards, it's worth it. Thanks to all involved there, you fixed a marginal system.

An additional cattle pasture to supply the creamery.

At the other end of town, not much has changed. Still just five farms; at this point in Sink Mill I had 20+ farms, and 7 TPs. This is just as much fun in a completely different way.

Those stone roads?

I almost never build stone roads. I'm stingy.  ;) None in this town so far.

Oops, except in front of the town hall, as decoration.

Quote from: irrelevant on October 23, 2014, 09:00:52 PM
I almost never build stone roads. I'm stingy.  ;) None in this town so far.

Oops, except in front of the town hall, as decoration.

I think stone roads are a good investment. When you see the difference in pace speed between dirt and stone roads, you can easily imagine the productivity benefit.

I usually pave my roads progressively: first the ways between "business centers" (markets, trading posts...), then the main roads throughout the map. I don't pave all the roads, but I try to make sure there is always a quick option for long walks.

There isn't a great difference in speed, so I can understand not building them. Probably not worth it. But I like the look of them, so have paved every single square in my 3100 town. Naturally that requires stone import, but it looks nice, so why not :D Never do in the beginning though, as surface stone is too precious for buildings, especially when I'm forced by firewood shortage to change to stone houses.

Quote from: Pangaea on October 24, 2014, 06:01:11 AM
There isn't a great difference in speed, so I can understand not building them.

True, actually the difference in speed, and the usefulness of stone roads, is a lot increased using the mod Faster Roads (makes dirt road 2x faster and stone roads 3x faster).

A long time ago I read, that stoneroads make the game slower. I don't know anymore where I read it, and cannot really believe it. I always wanted to test it, but always forgotten. Have anyone heard of this?

Normally I make stones on my main roads, but not always, I don't think it matter much. I may also make some, if I want a special, more civilized looking settlement. :)

Quote from: Coug_r on October 24, 2014, 06:35:23 AM

Quote from: Pangaea on October 24, 2014, 06:01:11 AM
There isn't a great difference in speed, so I can understand not building them.

True, actually the difference in speed, and the usefulness of stone roads, is a lot increased using the mod Faster Roads (makes dirt road 2x faster and stone roads 3x faster).

I agree with that, but then I consider that mod to be an outright cheat. It's not realistic at all, either. You're not going to turn into Usain Bolt just by moving from a more country-like dirt road and onto paved roads. A slight increase makes sense, so the +20% of the vanilla game is perfect in my mind. Perhaps means it's not worth building them, unless you have a mountain of stone laying around, but it's certainly better than the outlandish increases in the Faster Roads mod.

Autumn 25 - It's a pretty time of year, especially with @RedKetchup's wonderful creations to provide additional visual interest. Tearing down wooden houses where I can, replacing them with 2-story Little Houses, which I love.

Sure wish I had a bakery  ;)

@slink's little markets make it a whole new game; me, the market spammer, still has just one regular market.

Hah! I've never seen that before.

Summer 27

Still just two TPs. One would have been enough.

1-3) South, middle, north.

4) Falling behind on houses, so I need to build a few farms. @slink's Snug Houses are perfect in my farm grid, 3 wide instead of four, will put the barns closer together.

Early Winter 27

There's some farms. ;)

This is what a late snow in early spring does.

I can remember I had it that way once, worse than this. Than came the autumn and believe it or not, the frost came so early, that it wasn't even time to harvest all of that, left on the fields :(

Unfortunately I made no screenshots from the fields, but I have saved one of the food-graph. From all of my games, the worse harvest I ever got.

I can remember I had a few busy years after this. :)

Oh my, building even such a modest park as this is extremely tedious and expensive. The hedges! Each tile is 2 logs, 4 stone, 5 herbs, and 25 labor units.

Quote from: Nilla on October 26, 2014, 09:34:44 AM
I can remember I had it that way once, worse than this. Than came the autumn and believe it or not, the frost came so early, that it wasn't even time to harvest all of that, left on the fields :(

Unfortunately I made no screenshots from the fields, but I have saved one of the food-graph. From all of my games, the worse harvest I ever got.

I can remember I had a few busy years after this. :)

@Nilla  I can imagine, what a tremendous food crash! Something like that certainly takes years to recover from.

This little park cost like 100 logs, 400 stone, and 250 herbs, plus labor and tax  ;)

And while I was micro-ing its construction, I fell behind by ten houses.

But it looks awesome and I'm sure your Bannies are thankful for it. That counts, right? :)

Well of course it does. I was just surprised at the cost in resources and management. As it should be, in fact. ;)

Summer 32

Expanding farms. I am still firmly convinced that farms are the best source for food, the best compromise of use of land and labor.

Manufacturing district. Ale, wool coats, and iron tools for trade. Apple and chestnut orchards.

Milk district. Probably time for more pastures and another creamery.

Do you not find the color of those roofs off-putting?

very very nice. a good place to live :)

They really rub me the wrong way. Seem quite unrealistic.

By the way, do you have any examples of spreadsheets people make related to this game that serve some purpose? Do you play with spreadsheets? Do you keep notes on the game?

A couple of the colors I probably won't use again, in this town I'm just trying things out. The other 4 work for me just fine.

I don't really like using spreadsheets with games, make it seem too much like work  ;)

In the beginning I keep track of things by keeping various buildings' panels open. After I get a town hall, that gives me pretty much what I need to know.

Quote from: RedKetchup on October 26, 2014, 09:03:23 PM
very very nice. a good place to live :)

Thanks @RedKetchup! Good to see you still poking your head in here  ;)

1) So it lets you choose the colors? That's actually nice.
2) So are you one of those people who figured things out or have you just remembered some of the information you've been giving me from elsewhere? I guess it doesn't necessarily take spreadsheets to figure certain things out. Could possibly be more efficient and do things with a few data points even.

Quote from: snapster on October 27, 2014, 07:00:40 AM
1) So it lets you choose the colors? That's actually nice.
2) So are you one of those people who figured things out or have you just remembered some of the information you've been giving me from elsewhere? I guess it doesn't necessarily take spreadsheets to figure certain things out. Could possibly be more efficient and do things with a few data points even.

Yes, when you are putting the house down you can cycle through the options by pressing "F"

I figured out a lot of this stuff myself; the rest I learned by asking questions here, and confirmed through observation. I try not to spread hearsay; if I haven't observed something myself, I'll say so.

Year 36

North End farms and dairy

Port and manufacturing

Oldtown Farms. Still just the one market after 36 years! @slinks small markets are so useful.

South End foresters and future farm expansion.

Very nice! I'm going to have to try out Slink's market buildings on the next one. I've enjoyed watching how you're utilizing them. Elfecutioner's farm stand and general store are working well in my current town, but I want to try Slink's also. It's amazing how freeing it is to break away from building around markets.

Quote from: Mahnogard on October 27, 2014, 09:23:07 PM
Very nice! I'm going to have to try out Slink's market buildings on the next one. I've enjoyed watching how you're utilizing them. Elfecutioner's farm stand and general store are working well in my current town, but I want to try Slink's also. It's amazing how freeing it is to break away from building around markets.

Yes, do that, I have made some experiments with them, too. Really good!

By the way, I am fond of Elfectioner´s general store, too.

And @irrelevant I am eased to see that you haven't abandon your many barns. ;) It is very comforting to recognize you and your nice way of building, even with a lot of new things.
Have you tried the rootceller and the grainsilo?

@Nilla I'll never give up my barns,  ;) not in my farm grids anyway. They also are needed near TPs.

I do have a root cellar, but I put it in a poor location; no one ever puts anything in it. Last time I checked it contained 22 mushrooms.  ::) I'll build another near my farms.

I haven't tried a grain silo yet, I was waiting on @RedKetchup to build a bakery so I could make a grain district (koff-koff; ahem!)  ;)

I have a couple of @RedKetchup warehouses; these are so nice! Take lots of the pressure off the stockpiles and barns near the TPs. I have many 1000s of food (which are not part of the general inventory, so I actually have 50-75% more food than is shown on the town summary panel) socked away in them for a rainy day.

And of course @slink's  specialized markets make the distribution system as a whole so much more efficient!

Fishers are OP. I have 3 fishing docks in a town pop 413 producing 7000 annually; between houses, barns, markets, TPs, and warehouses, I have 40,000 fish banked in year 36. It stinks! ;D

If you think fishers are OP you should play with gatherers. They'd prevent you from turning the entire map into a grid though. I actually wonder how farms compare to them.

Quote from: irrelevant on October 28, 2014, 08:55:42 PM
Well, thanks; I think I detected at least two compliments in there. ;) I truly believe I do have farming figured out.

I really enjoy playing this game; I put a lot into it, and I get a lot out of it.

Would you mind posting a guide to how you play?

Well, really, that's what these blogs are. I've documented 4 towns from start to finish, in considerable detail.

Feel free to ask questions; you may have noticed, I tend to respond.

Gnaw Bone is probably the best of my blogs.

Year 37

Added a second creamery, plus some farms, in the north. Using 20x6s up here, to see if the dimensions give any advantage.

The food graph has turned down, cause I just sucked 30k into warehouses.

Southern farms. You can see the food I have socked away. Some is in TPs, but most is in warehouses.

Foresters; this area is an experiment. I put two foresters far out into virgin land, four foresters each set to cut and plant. They are gathering up all the surface stone and iron while they are cutting and planting. I'll document this in a couple of years.

Smiths and tailors are insane when you put a smithy market/textile market across the street.

Yes, I just started using Slink's markets and noticed that right away when I put a smith market across from my second smith. When the level drops below the limit, that smith gets it filled before my other smith can even make anything. (I have the first smith making iron tools for trade, and the second making steel to use.)

In most of my towns I have at some point switched one or more smiths to producing steel tools, and I always switch them back to iron before too long. It's good to build up a stock of 250-400, but then the fragility of the 3-input supply chain starts to piss me off  ;) This smithy market might possibly take care of that though; I haven't tried that yet here.

So here's something I've never tried before. I built a forester (well two of them actually, but I've documented only one) pretty far out in the sticks, far enough out that I knew I would not be wanting to develop the area for some time.

Within the circle is a goodly scattering of surface stone and iron. I assume that like me you would at some point send out an army of laborers to harvest this stuff. But I have noticed that cut-and-plant foresters also gather surface rocks. So I thought I'd see how long it would take the foresters just by themselves to take care of this. Here's the progression:

Year 33-37

edit: What was collected:

Year   Log   Stone   Iron
33     27     6     8
34   108   40   34
35   126   52   48
36   120   32   44
37   168  20    14

It's a pretty good way to use foresters, if you aren't in a hurry for the resources. As you can see, the circle has been picked pretty clean, and there are lots of young trees growing. I could either let this run for a couple more years and get the rest of the surface stuff, or I could turn off the cutting and in a year or two this would be extremely dense woods.

This is all vanilla, by the way; no mods would have affected this in my town.

Interesting. Yeah, I always send in laborers within the first year or two, I've never waited to see how the Foresters would handle it. I knew they would get to it eventually, but seemed like it would take forever. Looks like yours prioritized the iron.

Check the numbers I posted in an edit.

I don't know what the heck they prioritized. ;)

It appears there was somewhat more stone than iron to begin with. I expect it was basically random.

Ah yes, I see that now. Maybe I'm just trained to notice iron more because I really hate mining. :D I think from now on, I may just let the foresters deal with it. My first one always goes in the hunter / gatherer cluster so that one will get cleared manually anyway, but after that... why waste the labor if they're going to get to it anyway? :) Thanks for the experiment!

@Mahnogard You're welcome! I've been wondering about this for awhile. I just hate sending my guys out in the winter to cut stone and iron, I always lose half a heart, which I suspect make the guys die sooner.

Do you mind uploading a save?

Moving the forester stockpiles into town.

Used this warehouse to centralize it even further, then dumped it out.

The intermediate step was necessary, because that warehouse would never have sent vendors down to those forester stockpiles to collect this stuff.

Looks like 18x7 farms with two farmers get 896.

This kind of housing could be revolutionary. It'll be interesting to see what happens here in 20 years.

my lovely little houses are so awesome ! really !

i cant beleive they didnt like my new creamery building though.

There is no accounting for people's taste, @RedKetchup. It's a fact that you can't please everyone, so you just have to please yourself. You make good stuff, if they don't like it, it's their loss.

Year 42 - pop 627

Okay, I now officially have no idea what I am doing. I like this town, it is at a manageable size, and things seem to be fairly well balanced. I'm going to try to do something I have been thinking of for some time, and that is to slow the pop growth gradually until it is as close to flat as I can make it (yeah, right).

The hope is that if I can reach something resembling stability, I will be able to set up auto-trading for the things I'm not self-sufficient in, and just let the thing run. We'll see.

If anyone has any suggestions or ideas or just anything at all, I'd love to hear it!

What I'm thinking is, the only real feedback I have is comparing the number of children to the number of students. Since children enter school at age 10, and they mostly take 5-6 year to become educated, I should aim to have 40-50% more children than I have students. If I have fewer children (as I do now) I should work on increasing pop, gradually, until I reach that ratio.

Does this seem reasonable?

Interesting thing, I just built my third @RedKetchup root cellar. The first two were total busts, no one ever put anything in either of them. This last one was going to be the final trial. Now, I have guys lined up bringing stuff to put in it, from the second it was complete. The only thing that is different about this one is that it is not in the radius of a market. The guys bringing stuff to it certainly are coming from inside market radii. But maybe there is something hard-coded that gives preference to food storage that is not close to a market? I can't think offhand of anything else that would account for this.

The stable population, that is an interesting thing. I have tried it with a medium success. ; I would love to hear how you will manage. Probably much better than I did. You have that patience that I lack.

As far as I can say it is not possible (=extremely hard and time-consuming) to let it "run", keeping the population stable . If you stop building houses, there will be this famous sinus-graph. If you build few new houses; the same, not so extreme and with a slowly growing population. My best attempt was as I used boarding houses, setting all houses of families with grown up children (and old singels) for demolition, to get new young couples as the population started to decrease.

The only possibility I can see, is to try to get a population with a "perfect" age-structure, using this boarding-house-trick for several cycles.

Or maybe, you discover something else. I wish you luck and will certainly follow your efforts, even if I have decided to make a Banished brake for a while.

Forgot one thing; when it comes to a baby-boom - slow it down ;)

Quote from: irrelevant on November 01, 2014, 08:35:49 PM
Interesting thing, I just built my third @RedKetchup root cellar. The first two were total busts, no one ever put anything in either of them. This last one was going to be the final trial. Now, I have guys lined up bringing stuff to put in it, from the second it was complete. The only thing that is different about this one is that it is not in the radius of a market. The guys bringing stuff to it certainly are coming from inside market radii. But maybe there is something hard-coded that gives preference to food storage that is not close to a market? I can't think offhand of anything else that would account for this.

i dunno which mod you are using , but there is definetly 1 mod that interfere with Silos. we didnt found out which one yet, but there is 1 that make my silo not working properly.
i always thought there was one mods that change the 'grain flag' or the grains resources into something else, but it is possible there still something else.

can you tell me if in your game, if the 'grain flag' merchant still carry 'grains' ?

@RedKetchup I'm using Jamie's Merchant's and Trade Fix. The merchants are Livestock, Orchard, Crop, General Goods, and one called "________." I presume this last one is the grain merchant; she does bring grain.

crop merchant has " grain " .


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/64285054/2014-10-26%2000_02_35-TradeMod%20V2%20-%20Google%20Sheets.png (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/64285054/2014-10-26%2000_02_35-TradeMod%20V2%20-%20Google%20Sheets.png)

Yes, the crop merchant has grain, as does the general goods merchant.

I guess the category "edible" includes all foods.

yes

but we know there is a mod, but didnt figured out yet
do you have the tool for erasing mountains ?

yes; I used it when I built the third root cellar, but I can't remember if I used it with the other two that never got used.

you can read the discussion in there  :-X

http://banishedmods.com/showthread.php?tid=1472&page=4 (http://banishedmods.com/showthread.php?tid=1472&page=4)

I read it, nothing there says anything to me. For me, the only thing that makes sense in my instance is that the first two root cellars are inside a market circle, and the third root cellar is not, it is completely out in the middle of nowhere. There are many half-empty barns and markets (and also a closer empty root cellar, you can see it in that screenie at upper center) closer to where these people are coming from, but they walk right past them to store food in this remote root cellar.

Also, I was just watching it, the stream moves in both directions. There are guys bringing stuff there, and other guys taking it away as fast as it arrives. A little bit annoying, actually. It reminds me somewhat of the thing that was happening with @slink's fruit market before she fixed it, guys stuck in a storage loop. Except in this case, the guys who are bringing stock to store go away empty, and the guys who are taking stuff away don't bring anything with them.

Quote from: irrelevant on November 01, 2014, 08:30:04 PM
What I'm thinking is, the only real feedback I have is comparing the number of children to the number of students. Since children enter school at age 10, and they mostly take 5-6 year to become educated, I should aim to have 40-50% more children than I have students. If I have fewer children (as I do now) I should work on increasing pop, gradually, until I reach that ratio.

Does this seem reasonable?

Hm, and no, now that I'm trying to do it, it does not seem reasonable. Reality is, if you don't build houses, the number of children declines faster than the number of students. So back to the drawing board.

What about this theory? (I will speak about real years)

For a stable population: number of birth=number of deaths

People in Banished live about 20 years. This means;with a stable population you have 5% deaths=births each year.

Children are children 2,5 years. -> The number of children should be12,5% of the total population.

In fact, I think the average Bannie don't really live 20 years. There are also accidental deaths, so 13-14% children might be more adequate.

Following this theory you have a bit too many children. But it also depends on how many old people you have.

I will follow your efforts. It would also be nice to see you population-graph.

Some while back there were a number of postings on the question of "sustainable" populations in Banished on various fora. The conclusion generally reached was that, unless you are adding to the housing stock each game-year, the population will rise and fall in a cycle. If the number of houses stays constant, x% of these houses will contain "non-breeding" citizens (sounds so crass). As the population ages x will rise and young couples will have no open houses and will not couple. The population will fall. As "non-breeders" die off  x will fall and young couples will find open houses, couple and reproduce. Thus the population will rise. Eventually these will age and the cycle repeats. The general consensus was that the only way to survive this cycle is to have enough laborers in reserve that even at the low point in the cycle you have enough workers to fill every non-laborer job plus enough laborers to fetch and carry as necessary.

Since then one or two mods have attempted to address this issue by changing the ages for childbirth, etc. I've never used any of these, so I don't know how well they work.

Personally I have never filled a map to capacity except in the Valley of Death challenge and, as I remember, that one did not require longevity to the point where the cycle showed itself. I've always been able to add at least a couple of houses each game-year and keep population trending slightly upward, so I've never seen the cycle in my own towns. Where I have seen a drop is when I have accepted a larger group of nomads who, ten or so game-years later, all die off at once.

@Nilla What you have written makes sense, and since what I thought up wasn't working, I'll steal your idea  ;)   I'm going to use 15% though, just because it's easier to figure.

@rkelly I believe the sine wave phenomenon is an inevitable result of suddenly ceasing to build houses. I'm trying to taper off home construction gradually, with the idea of easing into some kind of soft landing. It's pretty to imagine this, anyway  ;)     

Summer 44 - Here's the pop curve, for 5 years and 50 years. The 50 year curve looks alarmingly steep, but it is leveling out.                       

Early Autumn 47 - Looked for awhile like it was going to flatten out, then total pop started to trend up again while children trended down. Built a few more houses after two years of not building any.

Food is marginal, adding some gatherers and hunters. I may need a fourth TP.

Summer 50

This is tough. The number of children declined sharply while the population continued to climb. I was counting on oldsters kicking off and freeing up houses but it hasn't happened, so I had to build a whole new neighborhood with a number of houses. The families that have moved into these houses have had an alarming number of 38-39 y/o women with men in their 20s. They have one child and then done. I'm not sure whether this is good or bad! So much micro.

Balancing food and firewood also has proved challenging, so I've added some producers and another TP as well (sure wish I had a bakery!  ;D ;) ).

The pop curve overall seems promising though, flattening out nicely. Whether it is sustainable or not though, I have no idea (I suspect it is not, and the pop curve will begin to trend down).

Quote from: irrelevant on November 04, 2014, 07:48:03 PM
This is tough. The number of children declined sharply while the population continued to climb. I was counting on oldsters kicking off and freeing up houses but it hasn't happened, so I had to build a whole new neighborhood with a number of houses. The families that have moved into these houses have had an alarming number of 38-39 y/o women with men in their 20s. They have one child and then done. I'm not sure whether this is good or bad! So much micro.

I find that as the number of "families" climbs significantly beyond the number of houses this happens regularly--depending on your demographics. Sometimes it's older males and sometimes both are older.

Autumn 53

Such an unattractive town! But an interesting challenge trying to keep the pop curve flat. I've had to build a number of houses, 10-15 in the past 5 years, in an effort just to keep the pop from crashing. Most of the new families, whether formed in a new house or in one vacated by dead bannies, still have men in their 20s and women age 35-40. One child and done.

Well now, there's something you don't see every day! :o Looks like Trading is paying off for Elio. ;)

Winter 56

Pop keeps edging down, seemingly regardless of whether I'm building houses or not. So I'm going to let it crash if it wants to, and try again to stabilize on the next upturn.

Autumn 59

Really not doing very much to this town. Added the @RedKetchup milling/baking district, and four houses, in the past 3 years. Oh, and two cemeteries. Lotsa folks kicking off, and I lost a whole star.

Need to analyze and simplify the TPs so I can do autotrading.

Pop curve is.....doing something. Not crashing, in any case. I think I'm pretty close.

looks good so far

but.......

now.....

comes the trickier part.....

not letting the population grow too much

good luck :)

Unfortunately this game has started crashing out in mid play. Not caused by saving, I expect there is some mod conflict, probably between the New Medieval Town and the Millers Family, which I still am not able to disable. I'm probably not going to be able to continue this town for much longer. Crashing over and over.

so sad :(  :'(

@RedKetchup Yeah. Did I read that you have a revision available that corrects the flour/pie thing in the bakery? I'm just wondering whether having two inventory items named "flour" is a problem? I noticed that last night.

Still fighting to keep this town going. Saving after every action I take, or after it runs for awhile with me doing nothing (which is most of the time).

yeah, and also pecan pie and cherry pie were making cakes too ^^

as soon as i ll finished that tailor, i ll do another build, and you ll be able to start a new city :)

Late Autumn 60

Still limping along in between crashes. I like this town, not giving up easily.

Happy woodchopper. The pop curve tips back up. How far will it go?

Reverted to an earlier save, before I added Medieval Town.

Lesson learned: never, ever, ever add any but the simplest mod to a town already in progress. And even then, make a save first.

always make a save first !

Late Summer 61

Back up with the old save and the new version of Medieval. No crashes so far, but I haven't restarted the mills yet. I still have 13 "old flour" in houses that I'm waiting to get used up. The rest of the old flour is gone.

The revitalized main market area.

Autumn 62

And the mill/bakery district is back up, turning out bread and pecan pies.

@RedKetchup For pie, looks like 10 each of flour, honey, and fruit/nuts = 18 pies?

bah nobody commented the number so far, which i was hoping :P

for the moment i ve put like 28 of items (10+10+8 or 10+12+6) for 18 pie

10 flour worth 10x2= 20, 10 honey=10, 8 apple = 8 so.... cost 38

18 pies worth 18x12 each = 216 :P

i know thats alot.
profit: 178


i need people give me number to put cause i have no idea

if i ask tester is not just to see if it crash ^^

@RedKetchup personally I'd say the quantities of inputs and outputs are balanced. I'd make pies trade at 6 instead of 12.

Cost 38 = 18 pies x 6 = 108 less 38 =  profit 70. Still pretty good but not insane. But the bakery can make tons of pies seems like, maybe 800-1000 per year. Don't have a full year's production yet.

Quote from: irrelevant on November 09, 2014, 12:43:45 PM
@RedKetchup personally I'd say the quantities of inputs and outputs are balanced. I'd make pies trade at 6.

I agree, though I rarely trade any food unless I have way too much of something so my opinions on trade value should be taken with a grain of salt. For the recipe input-ouput, though, I think it's good.

Or maybe that's not enough compared with bread. What's breads inputs/outputs? Ten flour = ten bread?

20 flour worth 2 each = 40 value : create 9-12 bread worth 4 each = 36-48 value. thats not big for bread if you use uneducated worker you even lose 4 gold IMO
thats the price presently in my files. i even think i should tear down from 20 flour to 16 flour (except the fact we create 32 flour with 20 wheat/corn)


10 flour worth 2 each = 20 + 6 honey worth 1 each = 26 for the cakes : create 12-16 cakes worth 8 each = 96-128 value. that one is too high. i should put 20 flour and 12 honey => 52 cost and still let the price there. would be like 150% profit.


10 flour worth 2 each = 20 + 18 honey/fruit/nuts combo at 1 each = 38 for the pies. : create 15 - 18 pie worth 12 each = 180 to 216 value. i definetly need to do something for that one. but keep in mind that you need 3 item resource for it, apple or cherry or pecan which arent easy to come with. i can double flour to 20 (40 value / 58 total) and put down the price at 10 => which would make 300% profit with 3 resources (which takes 3x time to create cause need to walk through the city to get all 3 resources x100 carry capacity)

Quote from: RedKetchup on November 09, 2014, 11:54:44 PM
10 flour worth 2 each = 20 + 18 honey/fruit/nuts combo at 1 each = 38 for the pies. : create 15 - 18 pie worth 12 each = 180 to 216 value. i definetly need to do something for that one. but keep in mind that you need 3 item resource for it, apple or cherry or pecan which arent easy to come with. i can double flour to 20 (40 value / 58 total) and put down the price at 10 => which would make 300% profit with 3 resources (which takes 3x time to create cause need to walk through the city to get all 3 resources x100 carry capacity)

Replied in another thread, reproducing reply here for continuity.

This is correct in theory, but in practice keeping huge stocks of the three inputs is no difficulty whatsoever. Wheat is essentially free, so with just a bit of planning (locating wheat fields, mill, storage, and bakery together as in my earlier screenshots in this thread) flour is essentially free as well. Fruit/nuts and honey also are available in vast quantities through trade or orchards/apiary. So the three-input pie chain is not nearly as problematic as the three-input chain for steel tools. Iron, logs, and coal not only are far more costly, they also have much more competition for their use.

A bakery with sufficient inputs can produce over 1000 pies per year. This is 12,000TV at 12 each, or 10,000TV at 10 each. Compare with a tailor and wool coats (250x15=3750TV), a tavern (600x8=4800TV), a blacksmith with iron tools (200x15=3000TV) or a woodchopper (1000x4=4000TV). Pies would be more in line with these (but still the best) even if the price per pie was reduced from 12 to 6 (1000x6=6000TV). Just my opinion. :) ;)

Late Spring 66

Pie Town  ;)

Nice. :) I'm about to start a new town with more of an emphasis on baked goods. Because pie is awesome. And because my last town was already in-progress when Red gave us the mod, so I never quite was able to achieve the bakery excellence I was striving for in my building placement.

so i guess, we are doing too many flour per year ? and too many bakery per year ? per building i mean

??

Well, it might be too many. It's an awful lot. I'd have to make a spreadsheet, and that's too much like work for right now (maybe a glass of wine too many for Excel)  ;)

Quote from: irrelevant on November 10, 2014, 05:41:15 PM
(maybe a glass of wine too many for Excel)  ;)

ah ok ! i understand why you understood nothing i wrote to you in PMs !!!!!!!!!

rofl

This town's probably done. I can't load it, or any earlier save. In fact I can't even start a new game. Going to start over with a fresh install of everything.

Quote from: irrelevant on November 11, 2014, 04:33:18 PM
This town's probably done. I can't load it, or any earlier save. In fact I can't even start a new game. Going to start over with a fresh install of everything.

should add:

i  will never drink wine when i m playing with mods.
i  will never drink wine when i m playing with mods.
i  will never drink wine when i m playing with mods.
i  will never drink wine when i m playing with mods.

Well, let's not get carried away now. I drink wine for medicinal purposes.  ;D

The better rule is, never fiddle around with mods once they are in use.

better : The better rule is, never fiddle around with mods once YOU are in use.

:) :) :)

Oh man, you should see some of the things I've done in Skyrim while drinking.

It's just soooo easy to get carried away in Banished because it's an exciting time right now, trying out mods and exploring new possibilities... Oddly, I didn't break any of my towns, but I had a similar problem when trying to start a new one a while back. I ended up having to clear out the mods from the windata folder, checked for any mod updates, then verified cache (Steam version) which seemed to "refresh" things without needing a full reinstall.

Of course, that process meant any saves from older towns were no longer going to be playable, but I've learned to not stay attached to them after I've started a new one.

Quote from: RedKetchup on November 11, 2014, 06:30:06 PM
better : The better rule is, never fiddle around with mods once YOU are in use.

:) :) :)

:P :P :P ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: Mahnogard on November 11, 2014, 06:42:32 PM
Oh man, you should see some of the things I've done in Skyrim while drinking.

It's just soooo easy to get carried away in Banished because it's an exciting time right now, trying out mods and exploring new possibilities... Oddly, I didn't break any of my towns, but I had a similar problem when trying to start a new one a while back. I ended up having to clear out the mods from the windata folder, checked for any mod updates, then verified cache (Steam version) which seemed to "refresh" things without needing a full reinstall.

Of course, that process meant any saves from older towns were no longer going to be playable, but I've learned to not stay attached to them after I've started a new one.

I think that since mods started coming I have started 20 or so towns, gotten to about year 20 and moved on because of new mods. I finally deleted all the save games because none of them are playable any more. I blame @RedKetchup, @slink, and @JamieIdle2.0 in particular.  >:(  (actually:  ;D )

tommorrow night at midnight +1 sec, there is the launch of new world of warcraft expansion..... so i need to lvl my hunter to lvl 100 :)
updates will be slower :)