I was just thinking about this. What follows, I don't know for sure, I only suspect. My suspicion is based on something I had just noticed this evening in my current game.
Just passed population 1000. This winter was the first time I had had hungry and cold villagers wandering around. I was poking around to see what I could figure out.
The first thing I noticed was that in the oldest part of town, the part now furthest from farmland (which is concentrated in the "suburbs"), the barns are empty. These are barns that had always been full since the beginning, to the point that it was a hindrance when purchasing fruit for the taverns in the area, as there was no place to store it except at the trading post.
Second, I see that the market in the area is down in the 30% range, when it had always been full before. The only thing I can think of as a remedy is to increase the number of vendors from 3 to 12 (or maybe more). Presumably they are ranging farther and farther away in their quest for food, and greater numbers will permit them to keep ahead of the local demand for food now that they must make significantly longer trips.
A more long-term fix is to start importing food at the trading post in that area only. I need to have an infusion of food, but not just anyplace, I need food that will fill those now-empty barns. And if I get it, I will have to increase the number of traders at that post, in order to get the food moved out faster.
If you are having big die-offs caused by hunger, you might check out the inventory of all your barns and your markets to see if you have any "food deserts."
If you have plenty of food elsewhere, you can also use your traders to drag food across the map to your trading post, then release it to your "hungry" area to fill up the barns in that area. Only a temporary fix, though.
@Bobbi, that's a great idea, thanks!
@irrelevant, ironically you have brought forward a very relevant characteristic of Banished maps. It is highly likely that resources from far away (in terms of the Banished map) will be in short supply. The other night I built a market area that had no nearby source of firewood. Only later did I notice the snowflake icons over a number of the cabins and then moved to correct the situation. I've also noticed that, when I'm not careful to balance, foods that I have acquired later end up in short supply in the older parts of town because the farms that grow those crops are far away. This got to be a problem on a map where seed and general merchants were not bringing corn or wheat seeds until year 50 or so. This is probably also a function of playing with only 2 or 3 vendors per market, but I have seen it even when I have all 12. It isn't only food deserts that can be created by town design.
thanks for the warnings....
in my 300 farmers contest ... i m checking all the barns in my old town ....
even if they look ... like almost all full..... there is not alot of food Inside, if you check each one ....
(sorry image deleted , replaced by error)
some have Tools, sometimes only that ... and mushrooms... 1 is at 27% and only have 26 Tools and 339 mushrooms.. it s not with 339 mushroom i ll feed a population of 1k !!!!!!
i ll keep an eye on that, thx for the warning
edit: but should I grab all the mushrooms and sell it ? and buy other food with it ?
I often trade away the mushrooms. They take up four times the space as other food.
really ? why does it takes 4x times other food space?
Mushrooms are very light for their volume. Storage space is measured by weight.
I would love a decent explanation for why mushrooms take up more room. Mushroom=light. Venison, mutton=heavy. I don't get it.
Storage room might be about volume more than weight. One kilo of mushrooms takes up much more space than one kilo of meat.
But I think it's kinda stupid in game. There is no way to tell that it takes up four times as much space, and it's the only food type that does. Like
@slink, I always try to trade my mushrooms for other food (or even for other stuff).
Edit: Does the game say somewhere that storage is measured in weight (or volume)? I know the wiki and such talk about weight, but I can't find any reference to it in the help.
Yes, me too. Just suck up all the mushrooms and trade them for stuff that doesn't take up so much room.
Quote from: rkelly17 on June 14, 2014, 07:25:34 AM
...
I've also noticed that, when I'm not careful to balance, foods that I have acquired later end up in short supply in the older parts of town because the farms that grow those crops are far away. This got to be a problem on a map where seed and general merchants were not bringing corn or wheat seeds until year 50 or so. This is probably also a function of playing with only 2 or 3 vendors per market, but I have seen it even when I have all 12. It isn't only food deserts that can be created by town design.
I noticed in your DV map that you had spread your farmland around the map quite a bit. Is this why? I was wondering, as I think it really helped your town look more like an actual real world town.
I agree with
@slink and the others, trade your mushrooms or they can take over your barns.
One issue I have been noticing in my towns where I have recently starting trading firewood for logs is that there can be areas that will not get the extra logs unless you have a tradeport and room for stockpiles between the tradeport and woodcutters. The multiple stockpiles can be used to kind of love the logs across the map a bit, but location with these can be tricky. Although I always thought they deposited goods like logs and stone in the nearest stockpile, I am finding that this is not always true. The way distance is measured in game must be variable. I don't want to fill my town with tradeports so I will have to keep this in mind while planning out the placements for things in my town.
@RedKetchup it's 500 farmers not 300!
Quote from: Bobbi on June 13, 2014, 05:37:23 PMIf you have plenty of food elsewhere, you can also use your traders to drag food across the map to your trading post, then release it to your "hungry" area to fill up the barns in that area. Only a temporary fix, though.
Traders are good for dragging anything. Just set an inventory level for something and those guys will go grab it fast. That's pretty much all they do. Then you can release it back to the supply system from the new location. Raw materials for any type of production.
@Bobbi's post got me thinking about logistics in a way I hadn't before. Your logistics net is probably as important as your housing situation in determining how successful your town will be.
Quote from: mariesalias on June 14, 2014, 02:33:39 PM
One issue I have been noticing in my towns where I have recently starting trading firewood for logs is that there can be areas that will not get the extra logs unless you have a tradeport and room for stockpiles between the tradeport and woodcutters. The multiple stockpiles can be used to kind of love the logs across the map a bit, but location with these can be tricky. Although I always thought they deposited goods like logs and stone in the nearest stockpile, I am finding that this is not always true. The way distance is measured in game must be variable. I don't want to fill my town with tradeports so I will have to keep this in mind while planning out the placements for things in my town.
@mariesalias Here is an example of what you are talking about. The first screenie is of a forester/hunter complex on the outskirts, showing the logpiles and a barn, which is jammed full of leather. I just started demolishing the barn and the pile closest to the town. When that big pile is gone, I'll work my way back. Before I do the last one or two, I'll rebuild the big piles nearest the town.
The second screenie shows to the left the storage being razed, and to the right, where the goods are being moved to. The barn under the town hall panel is the one that is filling up with leather. When it gets full, I may burn it down as well, and move the leather on down the line.
oh sorry
@solarscreen it was a typo :(
i wrote a '3' instead of a '5'
sorry
Quote from: irrelevant on June 14, 2014, 06:55:06 PM
Quote from: mariesalias on June 14, 2014, 02:33:39 PM
One issue I have been noticing in my towns where I have recently starting trading firewood for logs is that there can be areas that will not get the extra logs unless you have a tradeport and room for stockpiles between the tradeport and woodcutters. The multiple stockpiles can be used to kind of love the logs across the map a bit, but location with these can be tricky. Although I always thought they deposited goods like logs and stone in the nearest stockpile, I am finding that this is not always true. The way distance is measured in game must be variable. I don't want to fill my town with tradeports so I will have to keep this in mind while planning out the placements for things in my town.
@mariesalias Here is an example of what you are talking about. The first screenie is of a forester/hunter complex on the outskirts, showing the logpiles and a barn, which is jammed full of leather. I just started demolishing the barn and the pile closest to the town. When that big pile is gone, I'll work my way back. Before I do the last one or two, I'll rebuild the big piles nearest the town.
The second screenie shows to the left the storage being razed, and to the right, where the goods are being moved to. The barn under the town hall panel is the one that is filling up with leather. When it gets full, I may burn it down as well, and move the leather on down the line.
I see what you mean. I do do that with stockpiles now, when I have the space to.I don't think I could do that with barns though. I usually start on hard just so I don't have to breakdown the starting barn later. Hate to lose the resources I guess. This all does certainly introduce a new element in town planning.
If you can spare the time to micromanage this, you won't lose the barn. When it's nearly empty, just click reclaim and you now have a nice, nearly empty barn.
I had a little panic last night; it was autumn, and in an outlying area with 10 orchards and 30 farms there was not a single barn that was not jammed full. I gave destroy orders to 5 or 6 of them simultaneously, and the laborers came swarming. I did lose one of the barns through inattention, but I just built it back.
Now there is much more food in the barns closer to downtown. I believe I'll make this an SOP.
If you're not building anything at the same time, you can also assign zero builders to prevent demolition. Then reclaim before assigning builders again.
Quote from: Kaldir on June 15, 2014, 08:23:40 AM
If you're not building anything at the same time, you can also assign zero builders to prevent demolition. Then reclaim before assigning builders again.
Perfect! Thanks.
If you try to do the same thing with stockpiles, just be aware that total destruction of a stockpile doesn't require builders at all. Of course, stockpiles aren't hard to rebuild, but it can be annoying.
@mariesalias, you asked whether or not the issue of balancing food was part of my decision-making in placing farms. The short answer is yes. The longer answer includes finding places with sufficient room for the style of farm I'm interested in building and the general layout of the settlement. I also try to have forest villages spread around the map so that the resources will be available in various places. Now that I'm trying to trade more I am also finding that production facilities need to be close to trading posts that bring in the raw material, so I'm building taverns and woodcutters near trading posts--taverns are actually between the orchards producing the fruit being fermented and the trading posts. I find that buying fruit to ferment is crap-shoot, given that traders but whatever is on offer and not just the fruit my taverns are focused on, so I grow the fruit to ferment and sell the ale for other things. Besides, in the 500 farmer challenge I need all the farmers I can get. :)
@rkelly17 I also like to spread my forestry hubs throughout the map but had not really thought about it in regards to farming. It is something I will probably try to implement in future towns as I really like the look of it.
You may already be doing this but what I have found that helps with the fruit is to place orders for the kinds you want for every visit. I also do this with logs. Neither the fruit nor the logs have an increased price, like stone and other items do.
And i hear you about the Farmer challenge! I am having finding it a real challenge!
@irrelevant Hmm, I had not actually thought about emptying the barns like this (builders would have to be off as I get distracted). Usually I try to build more barns then I will need to allow for future storage issues. I'll have to keep it in mind in towns with storage issues. Thanks!
Quote from: rkelly17 on June 15, 2014, 09:47:12 AM
@mariesalias, you asked whether or not the issue of balancing food was part of my decision-making in placing farms. The short answer is yes. The longer answer includes finding places with sufficient room for the style of farm I'm interested in building and the general layout of the settlement. I also try to have forest villages spread around the map so that the resources will be available in various places. Now that I'm trying to trade more I am also finding that production facilities need to be close to trading posts that bring in the raw material, so I'm building taverns and woodcutters near trading posts--taverns are actually between the orchards producing the fruit being fermented and the trading posts. I find that buying fruit to ferment is crap-shoot, given that traders but whatever is on offer and not just the fruit my taverns are focused on, so I grow the fruit to ferment and sell the ale for other things. Besides, in the 500 farmer challenge I need all the farmers I can get. :)
@rkelly17 I currently have 17 brewers and have had good success in importing fruit. I have standardized on two fruit types, and the food merchants nearly always bring several thousand, usually of both types (I always place orders for what I want). I have some orchards, but nowhere near what it would take to be self sufficient at this level of production.
I did have a fruit crash a few years back, merchants kept bringing nothing but seeds >:(, and brewers all across the map shut down. That was a serious problem as I rely on selling ale and firewood, and at the time I was also having fuel issues. This made me realize that wool coats, leather coats (sell for 15 each), and iron tools (sell for 8 ) also are excellent export items. I have started putting a blacksmith and a tailor at every market in addition to the brewer and the woodcutter. This has been an excellent supplement to the ale and firewood combo that I had settled into. The coats take up a little less port space per trade value than firewood, the iron tools a little bit more.
Also, if you have tools and/or coats for sale ,
the livestock merchants will sell cattle for 600 (or is it 800) rather than the usual 1000 they want if all you have is firewood. Not sure which it is that they like, or if it takes both together.
@mariesalias You're welcome!
edit: now that I've slept on it, I'm not sure whether they sell cattle for 600 or for 800. Also, it's probably not the mix of goods available for sale that affects the price, but rather whether the cattle were on order or not.
but in 500 farmer chalenge... we cant say (or I cant say) we lack of food ^^
(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/37_15_06_14_12_14_05.bmp)
@RedKetchup Now that is a bunch of food! What is the population to support 500 farmers?
@RedKetchup You are so right! At this rate my map is going to be covered with barns! Might be a good thing I have internal lakes for more storage options.
@irrelevant : bah for the moment , presently : Year 69 : 1367 citizens : 342 farmers with over 120 laborers waiting crops lol
i know i m super slow but i make sure of :
1. never get more than 1 citizens per crop/orchard
2. never lack of Tools/clothes/firewood_and_coal/
2.B. never lack of stones/wood/iron/coal...
3. never lack of School/Hospital/Churches/Barns/Etc.
and even with my 15 hospitals lol i have measles running since 16 years :'(
Quote from: RedKetchup on June 15, 2014, 04:32:56 PM
i know i m super slow but [..]
Super slow? You went from 900 to 1400 citizens in a day. I'd not call that slow. :)
bah it s cause i played all day :P
but soon in i ll have a raid to attend in World of Warcraft :)
@RedKetchup I would not call 1367 citizen in 69 years slow! I would like to see your 75 year population graph. :o
What class/spec is your main?
Quote from: irrelevant on June 15, 2014, 11:03:34 AM
Also, if you have tools and/or coats for sale , the livestock merchants will sell cattle for 600 rather than the usual 1000 they want if all you have is firewood. Not sure which it is that they like, or if it takes both together.
I ordered sheep once when I was desperate (was like 50+ years without any) so I did not realize that about cattle. Does the cheaper price only come with no firewood at all in the trading post? Or can there be firewood with tools and coats. I usually have all three available to trade and I've never seen it effect the normal price thus far. Interesting bug/feature though. ;D
I don't think I have ever paid 1,000 for cattle. That must be what the cost is is you pre-order. Normally the cost is:
Chickens 400
Sheep 600
Cattle 800
15 hospitals! We aren't doing that challenge yet! LOL
Quote from: solarscreen on June 16, 2014, 03:50:04 AM
I don't think I have ever paid 1,000 for cattle. That must be what the cost is is you pre-order. Normally the cost is:
Chickens 400
Sheep 600
Cattle 800
@solarscreen I didn't realize the price was higher if you pre-ordered. Maybe that was what happened, it was a new TP with no livestock order, rather than having the tools and coats at the TP. So many things to remember, so few brain cells left to do it with.
@mariesalias I had firewood for sale as well, but now I'm not sure whether what I reported is accurate.
@mariesalias this is my 75 years pop graph : euh.... it s only 1,2,5,10,25,50 or 100 years. i ll give you the 50 and 100 years :)
(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/37_16_06_14_6_22_15.bmp)
(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/37_16_06_14_6_23_15.bmp)
and about the other question : Survival Hunter http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/windrunner/Redketchup/advanced (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/windrunner/Redketchup/advanced)
@solarscreen : and i ve just finally got rid of .... measles, after 22 years :S
So in the past day I've been more and more using traders to move resources around. They are super fast and will do exactly what you tell them to. I'd been using them to move wool and leather from the hinterlands to the workshops, but now I'm thinking of more ways to make use of their abilities. Specifically moving stone, logs, and iron around.
I'm not currently in front of the game. Can someone tell me what is the maximum number of traders you can have assigned to a single TP? I know it's at least 12, but I'm thinking it possibly could be a lot more than that?
From my current game, it looks like the default is 6, but that can be increased to 20.
@RedKetchup Thank you. It was not what I expected to see, though I am not really sure what that was. Maybe a smoother ascent? Grats on finally getting rid of your town's measles. :D
That is cool, my main is a SV Hunter, as well!
A 22 year epidemic ... that's pretty nasty. There are some folks here (I'm one of them) that seem to be interested in epidemics and hospitals. You might think about starting a new topic on this.
oh god ! i just got an outbreak of ... influenza :'(
how long this one will last me ?
Influenza (maybe by chance) was one of the worst epidemics I've seen over several games. For me, though, it only lasted a few years. Hopefully, it won't be as bad as your measles epidemic.
But ... it seems like Luke put some thought into how epidemics work (ie, the severity/longevity is influenced by population size). Your population is a lot higher than mine was with the influenza, and my guess would be that you might be in for a bad few years.
sweet , it only lasted 18months
bah ya my measles was always going down to 1 to 3 peeps and then go back to 58 :( they always totally failed to finally cure the very last ones and then going back to 50+ like crazy :(. it lasted 22 years
i used 6828 herbs so far in this city since day 1
I've never had such epidemics as these. Mine normally fizzle out after infecting a small number of people. The last one I had was confined to patient zero, even though he was in a school when he became ill. I definitely feared the worst on that one.
@RedKetchup what is the state of your citizens' health? Do you have hospitals? And how about herbs? My town is solid 5 hearts, I have three hospitals, and ~1500 herbs. My first town I had some nasty epidemics, and I realized I needed to be doing more to avoid them.
when measles happended i had 4.5-5 hearth and 4.0-4.5 happiness, i had 14 hospitals and 550ish herbs and a pop of 1200-1400
but i am really starting to get tired of this city :( so long time i am on it.
tired of this laggy thing... tired of waiting 10 years before a dozen of building get built with 50 laborers and 500 farmers(laborers in winters) ... tired of this 1.0.3 patch... i miss my 1.0.0 when hundreds of farmers was the deadliest powerful force in the universe :P
Whoa! This thread has ballooned!
1st, I'm going to assume that
@RedKetchup is going to host us all at a corn roast in the near future, featuring bean salad.
2nd, in what little time I got to play over the weekend I had a massive Small Pox epidemic. I realized that the hospital I had built out of the way was now on a major thoroughfare after extensive expansion--I've now deconstructed that one and replaced it with a less accessible one. Even so, the little devils are absolutely insistent on idling around the hospital. More than once the small pox epidemic got down to 2 or 3 when a pack of idlers all got sick at once and spread it around town again. Anyway, I opened the widow of every person who got sick (probably 50 or 60 all told) and except for 3 all had 5 hearts and 5 stars. The three had 4.5 hearts and 5 stars. My conclusion is that health is unrelated to getting sick. People with 5 hearts died of small pox after they were at the hospital. I am also beginning to think that idling near the hospital is programmed in for a reason. No matter how ugly and how impossibly placed my hospitals are, they attract idlers. I am suspicious that this is programmed in to make sure that epidemics spread at least somewhat. Maybe I'm just being paranoid.
Quote from: salamander on June 16, 2014, 07:00:28 AM
From my current game, it looks like the default is 6, but that can be increased to 20.
Yes, the maximum at one TP is 20
Just had a nasty tuberculosis outbreak. Scores died. Here is a citizen confused by fever.
"Sorry, lady, come back next month."
@rkelly17 I have noticed MUCH more idling at the Hospital in my game since the last patch or two. I am wondering if it has got something to do with workers not going as far away so they are 'at home' more to idle?
I don't know,
@mariesalias. It is possible. I find that idling at the hospital varies by map and hospital location. I had maps in 1.0.1 and 1.0.2 where there seemed to be what I consider excessive idling at the hospital. Now I try to put them out of the way and make them as ugly as possible, but some citizens are extremely stubborn. The one that drives me insane is when they go inside to idle! Personally, I go to the hospital only when necessary.
Yeah, I do not consider visiting a hospital as a fun thing.
I am not even sure how we could test something like this?
@mariesalias This is what emptying the barns looks like on my farms :)
The guys coming up from the bottom are heading to the barns, and the ones crossing the bridge and streaming out thru the market there are carrying food away.
It would be great if we could say, " Empty those three barns into that marketplace there. Send out the wheelbarrows!"
That makes me wonder, there aren't any wheelbarrows in this shot, but I know I've seen them go when I've done this before. I wonder if it would speed things up if I maxxed out the vendors at that market there (changing the local laborers to vendors and increasing their carrying cap), and I wonder further if they did help empty the barns, whether they would take the stuff back to that market, which looks like a fine place for it.
Obviously the laborers carrying the food off have other destinations in mind.
2139 citizens ??? /cry
you are so hard to beat !
you are doing awesome !
Yabbut I still don't have the damn 500 farmers!
@irrelevant Thanks! I basically do the same thing with stockpiles. Though it is sometimes difficult to make them take it where you want them to.
Quote from: irrelevant on June 27, 2014, 06:22:49 PM
Yabbut I still don't have the damn 500 farmers!
I think you will get there when you hit 3,000. LOL
Moving the stockpiles.
1) Wait til you have a bunch of farmers standing around with nothing to do for a couple of months.
2) Screen 1 -- mark your clogged up stockpiles for removal. Be sure you have enough space available where you would like this stuff to go. Check around first to be sure there aren't closer stockpiles in the wrong direction!
3) Screen 2 - let the farmers do their stuff.
Whenever I use farmers like this, or doing clear-cuts, or whatever, if they haven't finished whatever it is when it turns late winter, I pull the plug on it. You don't want those guys running all over when it comes time to plant.
i didnt found out the thread we were talking about .... lunchbox and farmer going to eat instead of working .....
here it happends to see it again and i am with 1.0.3 last patch.
frost came early, seeing tons of crops not harvested yet (again) and checking what the farmers are doing :P
on this wheat crop, still need to be harvested and what the farmer are doing ?? going to eat instead to harvest it and let all remaining food go to waste :(
these full stockpiles, are they purely excess material or is it material you need somewhere else to produce into something ie firewood?
If this material is just excess, I assume it is being acquired via trading, I can't imagine you could mine, quarry, or chop that much extra. Wouldn't it be in your best interest to suspend trade on those materials temporarily until you use the volume down a bit?
@tomplum68 Never!! ;) I'd far rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. Things are moving fast on this map, this is the one I'm blogging.
Quote from: RedKetchup on July 09, 2014, 01:41:07 AM
frost came early, seeing tons of crops not harvested yet (again) and checking what the farmers are doing :P
on this wheat crop, still need to be harvested and what the farmer are doing ?? going to eat instead to harvest it and let all remaining food go to waste :(
@RedKetchup, did you try the priority tool? I find that in cases of emergency (early frost, etc.) it can help to get the crop in. I also note that there is 1% left in the field. Did they harvest the rest of the field OK? Did they have coats? In that weather they may have needed to go to a house to get warm. It may also be that with only 1% left they decided that some laborer job was more important or that they are off putting the harvest in a barn.
I believe that it is also the case that the lunch box does not apply to every worker. Maybe only builders and laborers, but maybe only laborers. The farmers may get one, but only when they are acting as laborers. I haven't actually researched this, but am working from a distant memory of Luke's blog for version 1.0.2.
Quote from: RedKetchup on July 09, 2014, 01:41:07 AM
i didnt found out the thread we were talking about .... lunchbox and farmer going to eat instead of working .....
here it happends to see it again and i am with 1.0.3 last patch.
frost came early, seeing tons of crops not harvested yet (again) and checking what the farmers are doing :P
on this wheat crop, still need to be harvested and what the farmer are doing ?? going to eat instead to harvest it and let all remaining food go to waste :(
I am pretty sure, the lunchbox only applies to workers/laborers who are a certain distance from their homes. Farmers usually live closer to their fields, so should still be going home to eat.
ok, my bad then