I never had a start up problem or had the game crash on me so I'm going to revert my game install back to 1.00 and play some new maps from there until the official standalone patch is released.
However, we may not see a standalone patch. Steam provides a good way for the dev to keep track of his game players, issues, and a way to ensure the patches get pushed out. I may be wrong but with attention being pulled in other directions, simpler is easier.
We had better see a standalone patch. Just saying, you know? ???
I don't see why an official patch wouldn't be both Steam and Standalone. The beta patch being Steam-only is something completely different than an official patch, and could have several valid (imho) reasons.
When the patch arrives, it will be for all, I'm sure.
Quote from: Kaldir on May 17, 2014, 05:59:54 AM
I don't see why an official patch wouldn't be both Steam and Standalone. The beta patch being Steam-only is something completely different than an official patch, and could have several valid (imho) reasons.
When the patch arrives, it will be for all, I'm sure.
My feeling comes from this:
You have to make your program or patch first, then add in the steam code. Just as easy to compile without the steam as it is with. So there's only a few reasons why no standalone beta.
1. He didn't want to pay for the bandwidth needed to supply standalone beta update files.
2. He wanted to use the existing Steam infrastructure to deliver the beta update and capture input.
3. He is only going to supply a Steam update and is using that system now to supply the beta update.
Now, with that in mind also think about the absolute silence from him and his moderator on the SRS website and I think he is simplifying his life and this game as he moves on to new projects and other things.
I suspect the 2nd (or maybe 1st) option was indeed why he only made the Steam beta patch.
On the other hand, he:
1. dedicated some years of his life to making this game;
2. chose to have both a standalone and Steam edition;
3. bothered to give out a steam code to those who bought the standalone edition;
4. explicitely chose to have a DRM-free edition of his game;
5. created and distributed the 1.0.1 beta patch for the standalone game;
6. actually listens to his community, appearent from the changes in the 1.0.2 beta patch.
With that in mind, I seriously doubt he would already abandon a part of his community by not updating the game for them. And I doubt he will risk the negative publicity and potential legal issues. Especially if he wants to get new projects going under SRS.
His silence is probably mostly due to the large amount of work that goes into support and debugging. I guess he seriously underestimated that, like he more often underestimated the amount of time things take. And the moderator was just a bad choice, I guess.
All ofcourse just my speculations.
I will never, ever, buy anything from him again if he uses bait-n-switch on us with Banished. Tarn Adams is happy with my annual donations, which are several times annually what I paid once for Banished. If Luke is so hot to to program for game machines and/or an online captive market, I will let him go without remorse.
If, however, he is kicking back and drinking some wine while he ponders how to make his most recent patch work correctly, I can understand that. Or beer. Either one. Doesn't matter, as long as the final patch arrives for non-Steam users, eventually. ;)
I am sure he'll provide a patch for us. I'm just annoyed at the lack of information and the inability to participate in the beta testing of this new patch. He said a few weeks, but it looks like this patch created a few more issues which could well push the release date back. I'd have preferred he release a patch that fixes specific issues, and then a part b patch that addresses the rest.
Of course this is all new to him too, I'm guessing and he'll learn assuming he keeps his focus on Banished. I'm a little worried about that too, based off some of his comments.
I am positive that the patch will be released for everyone! If he wanted his game to be just Steam, he would have made it just Steam.
While there are some differences in coding between the two, for patches/updates it isn't as huge as difference as you might think (judging by other games that use both methods), and will not be a huge deal to write up the stand-alone patch version.
There are some very good reasons to release the beta for the patch on Steam and not everywhere.
1. He has more control over the number of users/testers.
2. It has to be opted into and many/most Steam users are familiar with testing beta updates already.
3. It has its own built in forum for feedback/complaints. The more savvy people will post their bugs at both forums, which may help differentiate between game errors and user errors.
4. He does not have every user updating to the beta patch without really understanding that it IS a beta patch and what that means. Many people see a patch or update and just jump in without checking to see that it is complete or in testing. And then many people don't understand that testing an update may mean that it could break things more.
5. Because of #4, he gets to minimize all the complaints and QQ that would otherwise come in when something might break with the beta patch. Steam users have to actually opt into it, so presumably, they understand the risks... well most of them. ;p So we can assume there will be much less of the "the update" broke my game!" vague complaints.
From a testing POV, it makes a lot of sense to use the Steam opt-in Beta testing system.
As Kaldir pointed out, Luke actually does listen to the community which is more then many game producers do. He is mostly silent but as he listens, I don't really mind it. I'd rather see results then have a chatty developer. :)
I have been following Banished development for years and Luke never appeared as the type of developer who would be jumping into conversations on forums and such. He is devoted to the project and over the years has instilled in me a sense of his integrity and commitment to Banished. I can not even imagine him now abandoning part of his game in favor of another part. The game is his baby, or babies might be a better analogy in this sense (Steam and Stand-alone). I could not imagine him abandoning one twin in favor of the other.
I believe he did say that he would release the patch for everyone once it was stable?
Quote from: mariesalias on May 18, 2014, 12:09:45 PM
I am positive that the patch will be released for everyone! If he wanted his game to be just Steam, he would have made it just Steam.
While there are some differences in coding between the two, for patches/updates it isn't as huge as difference as you might think (judging by other games that use both methods), and will not be a huge deal to write up the stand-alone patch version.
There are some very good reasons to release the beta for the patch on Steam and not everywhere.
1. He has more control over the number of users/testers.
2. It has to be opted into and many/most Steam users are familiar with testing beta updates already.
3. It has its own built in forum for feedback/complaints. The more savvy people will post their bugs at both forums, which may help differentiate between game errors and user errors.
4. He does not have every user updating to the beta patch without really understanding that it IS a beta patch and what that means. Many people see a patch or update and just jump in without checking to see that it is complete or in testing. And then many people don't understand that testing an update may mean that it could break things more.
5. Because of #4, he gets to minimize all the complaints and QQ that would otherwise come in when something might break with the beta patch. Steam users have to actually opt into it, so presumably, they understand the risks... well most of them. ;p So we can assume there will be much less of the "the update" broke my game!" vague complaints.
From a testing POV, it makes a lot of sense to use the Steam opt-in Beta testing system.
As Kaldir pointed out, Luke actually does listen to the community which is more then many game producers do. He is mostly silent but as he listens, I don't really mind it. I'd rather see results then have a chatty developer. :)
I have been following Banished development for years and Luke never appeared as the type of developer who would be jumping into conversations on forums and such. He is devoted to the project and over the years has instilled in me a sense of his integrity and commitment to Banished. I can not even imagine him now abandoning part of his game in favor of another part. The game is his baby, or babies might be a better analogy in this sense (Steam and Stand-alone). I could not imagine him abandoning one twin in favor of the other.
I believe he did say that he would release the patch for everyone once it was stable?
That makes no sense whatsoever, since most of the non-Steam users I know are older people, and more computer savvy than many of the so-called modern generation. Steam users have to opt in? What do you think non-Steam users have to do? Just turn on the computer and it downloads and updates itself automatically? That doesn't happen, let me assure you. Whatever his reason(s), it isn't because the average Steam user is older, wiser, kinder, more educated, more experienced, or more intelligent. Maybe it is, in fact, because on the average they are not those things.
And yes, he said that we would all get the patch when he was done with it, whenever that is, and if he keeps his word, which
@solarscreen suggested he would not. Thus the fire on the water. ;)
Quote from: slink on May 18, 2014, 12:48:01 PMThat makes no sense whatsoever, since most of the non-Steam users I know are older people, and more computer savvy than many of the so-called modern generation. Steam users have to opt in? What do you think non-Steam users have to do? Just turn on the computer and it downloads and updates itself automatically? That doesn't happen, let me assure you. Whatever his reason(s), it isn't because the average Steam user is older, wiser, kinder, more educated, more experienced, or more intelligent. Maybe it is, in fact, because on the average they are not those things.
It's not so much that Steam users are wiser, but that Steam has a beta framework available. Steam users that enable that will know (even if they ignore it) that it is a
beta option, and not the regular one. If Luke put a beta patch up for download here, plenty of users (no, not all) will just read
patch, and download it. Downloading from a site feels different from opting in to a beta system like Steams. And the Steam system means you don't have to be computer savvy to install that beta patch.
Let me weigh in on this subject again, since I started it...
Above all, I am not disparaging the dev or doubting his word.
HOWEVER:
I do think it is possible that Steam will be the sole outlet for this game in the future.
I hope I am wrong and Luke continues to make his UNPRECEDENTED drm free version of the game available.
But, he is a VERY busy man and one that prefers to keep things sane, reasonable, and simple. I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND THAT SENTIMENT. Good for him.
I just don't see any reason not to release the beta just like he released the emergency patch for people who could not even play the game.
Twice the feedback - twice the testing - twice the attention for a successful correction of issues. Win - Win.
BUT, in the end, it is his game, his life, his problem. I like what we have and think it could go much further in the future. It was also a lot of work and very stressful.
REGARDLESS - I am currently playing back on 1.0.0...
... and I'm noticing the priority tool doesn't seem to working as well? Hmmm, maybe the patch has more to it than just crash and startup fixes.
Quote from: Kaldir on May 18, 2014, 12:58:40 PM
Quote from: slink on May 18, 2014, 12:48:01 PMThat makes no sense whatsoever, since most of the non-Steam users I know are older people, and more computer savvy than many of the so-called modern generation. Steam users have to opt in? What do you think non-Steam users have to do? Just turn on the computer and it downloads and updates itself automatically? That doesn't happen, let me assure you. Whatever his reason(s), it isn't because the average Steam user is older, wiser, kinder, more educated, more experienced, or more intelligent. Maybe it is, in fact, because on the average they are not those things.
It's not so much that Steam users are wiser, but that Steam has a beta framework available. Steam users that enable that will know (even if they ignore it) that it is a beta option, and not the regular one. If Luke put a beta patch up for download here, plenty of users (no, not all) will just read patch, and download it. Downloading from a site feels different from opting in to a beta system like Steams. And the Steam system means you don't have to be computer savvy to install that beta patch.
Are you telling me that no Steam user ever figures "What the hell, might as well", and downloads a beta patch, to their subsequent dismay? The only thing Luke gains is possibly a legal disclaimer, and since nothing at all on your computer is affected, except for games saved subsequent to the patch, the disclaimer disclaims responsibility for nothing at all. What fool runs an game upgrade without saving a copy of the un-patched game and all of the saves, anyway?
Basically, he has more Steam users than non-Steam users and he is putting his effort into pleasing the greater number of users since he is splitting his efforts between Banished and some other projects. That's all it is. Remember, he isn't used to customer support. He said himself that whenever in the past he finished a game console game, it was finished, and he went on to the next project. Life was simpler for him then, and he has expressed a wish to return to that simplicity. Whereas I have no desire whatsoever to be limited by a game machine or by an online game service. Caveat venditor.
Sorry, I was not trying to imply that Steam users were more mature or smarter than non-Steam users!
I have played so many games over the years that I have seen people just blindly update or patch many, many times! And then complain about it when their game breaks or acts up. Problem is they just complain and don't actually post bug reports that could help.
So I do think it makes sense to do the testing for a patch in a somewhat-controllable environment. While many Banished players do seem to be more mature and savvy then the general populace of gamers (no offence intended to anyone), not using or using Steam is not a fair way to judge this. Wile there are many Steam users who are younger and immature, there are also many older Steam users, as well. They just tend not to QQ on the forums and such so are perhaps less visible. On the other hand, most younger gamers I know do not yet have Steam, though this is not a huge number of people so I can't really draw any conclusions from it.
And saying this, I have to laugh because my seven-year-old has his own Steam account and games. But he never interacts socially with the internet or anyone on it except family. :D I will add, since i have taken flack for letting him have his own computer before, that his computer desk is directly next to mine and he is always supervised while on it. He already wishes to learn how to program so he can make mods for Spore, Portal/2, Minecraft, and Starcraft 2, and as he wanted to learn to read last year so he could play more advanced games and now excels at it, I have no doubt he will be programming in the next couple years. By the time he is a teen (or sooner) I have no doubt that he will be a more computer-savvy person then I am! My personal aim is to make sure he is a responsible and considerate internet user, which sadly so many young people today are not.
Anyway, one thing I have no doubt of is that most (if not all) of the posters who post here and on the SRS forum are older, wiser, kinder, more educated, more experienced, or(and) more intelligent then one generally finds on most gaming forums! I have to say though, from my experience, you guys are the exception, not the rule. And not something Luke or any game developer can count on. :)
Forgive me for not placing quotations around the quote from you, but ! was afraid it might sound sarcastic, which would be the opposite of my intention.
Good thing you didn't put quotes around it since you added the word "and". ;D
Quote from: slink on May 18, 2014, 01:17:00 PM
What fool runs an game upgrade without saving a copy of the un-patched game and all of the saves, anyway?
...
Basically, he has more Steam users than non-Steam users and he is putting his effort into pleasing the greater number of users since he is splitting his efforts between Banished and some other projects. That's all it is. Remember, he isn't used to customer support. He said himself that whenever in the past he finished a game console game, it was finished, and he went on to the next project. Life was simpler for him then, and he has expressed a wish to return to that simplicity. Whereas I have no desire whatsoever to be limited by a game machine or by an online game service. Caveat venditor.
Unfortunately many, many, many gamers do not make backups. I have been active on too many gaming forums over the years, and this is a near- constant condition! People get upset, even furious, because their games/saves got messed up or destroyed and they did not make a backup.
I have seen no numbers on whether he has more Steam users vs Stand Alone users. Or of how accurate those numbers could be, for instance I have both the Stand Alone version and the Steam version active. Do I count as one or both?
And I do think Luke may be missing the old simplicity of being able to release a game and be done with it. But he made the change to be independent and was successful with his first offering, and I can not see him going back to working in a corporate setting again! At least, I have not read anything to suggest he is contemplating such. This type of situation may be one reason he makes so few public statements. In the gaming world, it is so easy for everyone to dissect what developers say and construe it to mean so many different things. I can not think of a game, off-hand, where this does not happen. It does become a no-win situation. As anything you say is considered written-in-stone or as a promise, but then everything is taken to have different meanings by different people. The American-English language is wonderful and terrible in its ability to convey so many different meanings with the same words.
That Luke was actually able to finish the game and released it in such a polished state speaks volumes about him as a developer! I have known independent game developers in the past, and even worked with a couple, and just making it to the end with a finished product is a huge endeavor. Especially if you don't go the kick-starter/early access type of route. I seriously can not see him abandoning half of his game! He does not even need to be doing this patch as most of it is not game-breaking really. He really could just move on to the modding aspect. He really is showing us how much he cares about this game with his actions. He may not have the social niceties that everyone might wish for, but he is committed the game, that much is obvious. :)
I do however, believe that once he gets Banished as stable as he wants it to be, he will move on to the modding pack, and then he will be done with the game. At least for awhile, while he works on a new project or two. I believe with his next game release he will make sure he has people in place to handle some of the aspects that have taken him by surprise this time. So the next release will not be as stressful a process as this one has been for him. He strikes me as a smart man who will learn from past experiences.
Quote from: slink on May 18, 2014, 01:17:00 PM[..] What fool runs an game upgrade without saving a copy of the un-patched game and all of the saves, anyway? [..]
My guess would be: more than 90% ;D
Quote from: slink on May 18, 2014, 01:17:00 PM[..] Basically, he has more Steam users than non-Steam users and he is putting his effort into pleasing the greater number of users [..]
I don't see what putting up a beta patch has to do with pleasing people. He got that patch out for testing, and needed a testing audience. It's not like he gave part of the community new toys while denying them to others. It might feel that way, sure. But it's not what a beta test is all about.
Quote from: slink on May 18, 2014, 01:26:02 PM
Good thing you didn't put quotes around it since you added the word "and". ;D
Indeed! Honestly, I could not remember the proper process for inserting into a quotation and was too lazy to look it up. Very sad, as I was a Communications and English major in college. The internet has sorely decayed my skills. Good thing I kept all my old Grammar textbooks so I can brush up occasionally. ;D (I am also quite talented at missing typos!)
@solarscreen I did not think you were disparaging on Luke. We love this game and so we want it to be here for us! I completely understand. From my point-of-view, I have been following his work for years now and he has proven to me that he is dedicated to this project so I have no doubt in him completing it. Perhaps I am being naive and trusting him too much though?
"Twice the feedback - twice the testing - twice the attention for a successful correction of issues. Win - Win."
Yes, but also twice the confusion, twice the QQ, twice the amount of information to wade through. As you say, he is a busy man. Although it may not seem it, beta-testing on Steam probably was the more simple and less time-consuming choice. I would not not take this to mean though that he means to discard his Stand-Alone users. :)
One thing I have noticed is that since installing the Steam version on my computer, I have been having issues with my Stand Alone version. I have seen others post about this too. So this may be what is delaying the patch being released. Maybe something about it does not want to play nice with both versions? Or there is a conflict between having both installed that was unanticipated. Until this patch, no one really had much reason to install both on their computers.
Quote from: mariesalias on May 18, 2014, 01:58:38 PM[..] One thing I have noticed is that since installing the Steam version on my computer, I have been having issues with my Stand Alone version. I have seen others post about this too. So this may be what is delaying the patch being released. Maybe something about it does not want to play nice with both versions? Or there is a conflict between having both installed that was unanticipated. Until this patch, no one really had much reason to install both on their computers.
Both installed copies will probably use the same configuration settings in the Windows registry, and that could cause a conflict maybe. Although those settings are pretty minimal.
And the Menu.msc file located amongst the save games could give issues, since handling it is different between 1.0.0 and 1.0.2.
Quote from: Kaldir on May 18, 2014, 02:05:44 PM
Both installed copies will probably use the same configuration settings in the Windows registry, and that could cause a conflict maybe. Although those settings are pretty minimal.
And the Menu.msc file located amongst the save games could give issues, since handling it is different between 1.0.0 and 1.0.2.
Yeah, it seemed to me like there might be some kind of conflict possible, I asked my husband and he assured me there wouldn't be. He is MUCH more computer savvy then I am so I took his word for it. He is just lucky they didn't both get messed up! If i need to, I will uninstall the Steam version and just use the Stand Alone version, though I do like having the Steam version available to do my challenges on.
@mariesalias: For sales purposes I would count you as both Steam and non-Steam. I doubt if sales numbers can distinguish between two copies sold to the same person and two copies sold to two different people. Even if you only bought one copy but play it both ways, you might get counted twice. You would certainly get counted as a Steam user because you have a key. Some people who bought through Humble also got Steam keys, so non-Steam players may be only a calculated difference between total sales and Steam keys sold.
@solarscreen:
"Above all, I am not disparaging the dev or doubting his word.
HOWEVER:
I do think it is possible that Steam will be the sole outlet for this game in the future."
You can't have it both ways. Either you expect him to keep faith with all of his customers, or not. According to your post, you expect not. It's your right to express your opinion of his future behavior, and mine to express mine of him if that eventuality comes to pass.
Only time will tell what happens.
@Kaldir:
"I don't see what putting up a beta patch has to do with pleasing people. He got that patch out for testing, and needed a testing audience. It's not like he gave part of the community new toys while denying them to others. It might feel that way, sure. But it's not what a beta test is all about."
No question that he gave an improved toy to part of the community and denied it to the rest. If he really wanted a small beta-testing audience, he should have given the beta patch only to non-Steam users. He didn't want that. He wanted to give it to the largest group, to subdue the most complaining about the broken stone roads and the starvation on large maps among other fixes which I could readily profit from having. I have kept silent about that, after my initial minor grumbling when it was first announced. But having
@solarscreen say that in the future he expected Banished content to only be available for Steam users got me stirred up again about it.
No one actually knows anything. It's all speculation at this point. I don't really understand getting riled up about speculation.
Also, a beta test is not a "new toy". This particular patch seems to be working, so I guess it might feel that way to non-testers. But what if it were failing miserably, causing Steam users' games to crash incessantly? Would the non-Steam users still feel left out? Doubtful. They'd probably feel some empathy, but I don't imagine too many of them would be clamoring to try out the patch.
Quote from: slink on May 18, 2014, 02:40:01 PM[..] got me stirred up again about it.
I noticed ;D
Let's just hope the official patch comes out soon, to end the uncertainty and to provide new toys for all.
Quote from: canis39 on May 18, 2014, 03:02:11 PM
No one actually knows anything. It's all speculation at this point. I don't really understand getting riled up about speculation.
Also, a beta test is not a "new toy". This particular patch seems to be working, so I guess it might feel that way to non-testers. But what if it were failing miserably, causing Steam users' games to crash incessantly? Would the non-Steam users still feel left out? Doubtful. They'd probably feel some empathy, but I don't imagine too many of them would be clamoring to try out the patch.
Why would I feel empathy for someone who is playing with a new toy that turned out not to work as expected? It's not like their OS got damaged. It's just an "oops".
I don't understand posting baseless speculation affecting only a part of the user base, but I'm not above getting riled up about it. For what other reason was it posted? ??? However, I'm done now. Hope
@solarscreen got his money's worth. ;D
Well, I wasn't trying to start anything, just thinking out loud.
I don't think it's baseless, as I explained before. I can have it both ways too because delivering the patch by any means is delivering the patch. I have a steam key, I would rather not play it that way but I can.
I certainly don't want to create activity here by creating controversy.
I'll think quieter next time.
Isn't a forum an especially good place to speculate about what is going to happen next? To see how different people feel about it, and what their opinion is? Opinions might lead to controversy sometimes though.
Personally I hope the "fear" for controversy will not lead to people keeping quiet.
Quote from: Kaldir on May 19, 2014, 12:10:28 AM
Personally I hope the "fear" for controversy will not lead to people keeping quiet.
Couldn't agree more. Parts of this topic stand to affect everyone who has bought the game, whether the stand-alone or Steam version, and I've appreciated being able to see other opinions and perspectives. The fact that discussions of 'controversial topics' among this group are handled with maturity and respect for other's views makes it that much better.
Quote from: solarscreen on May 18, 2014, 06:05:47 PM
Well, I wasn't trying to start anything, just thinking out loud.
I don't think it's baseless, as I explained before. I can have it both ways too because delivering the patch by any means is delivering the patch. I have a steam key, I would rather not play it that way but I can.
I certainly don't want to create activity here by creating controversy.
I'll think quieter next time.
I hope you will not "think quieter next time"! I agree with Kaldir, forums are great places to discuss things like this and get different opinions! We all come at any topic with our own observations, point-of-views, and experiences, I always enjoy seeing everyone's thoughts on topics, even if mine are different!
What I don't like is when discussions end up devolving into insults and superior-then-thou attitudes. I can not see that happening here. Which is one reason I already love this forum! Controversy of itself is not bad, but how people react and participate in it. Discussion is good! I sincerely hope you will not feel a need to censor yourself in the future! :)
I know I sometimes come off more severe then I intend to; it is a constant bane to me, as it is so rarely my attention and I feel like I should be able to avoid giving that impression by now. And if I have done so here, I do apologize. I love debate and discussion and find them wonderful learning opportunities! And I enjoy hearing/reading other people's opinions just as much.
My father instilled in me the idea that to make the best-informed decisions in life, you should gain as many opinions and facts as possible in a situation. Often we tend to think our reasoning is the only one that makes sense because we become so emotionally involved (I am not so much referring to this topic specifically as life in general). I have so often found myself seeing things from a fresh perspective when I listen to other's opinions and thoughts! Most of the worst mistakes I've made in life have been because I refused to listen to anyone but my own thoughts or did not make a decision at all (which in itself is a decision).